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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    if all I had was not a penny more than $18-20k - guess I would be hightailing it down to my friendly Sonata dealer.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I cringe whenever someone mentions resale value. No one guarantees the values in the future.

    A better comparison for the short-termers would probably be lease costs.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    I like the styling of the Altima.. :shades:
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "Why do you consistently put your vehicle (and its counterparts) down? They aren't bad cars - you say they are more than anyone. "

    I don't put them down, folks like yourself claim the I4 of the Honda Accord is so superior.. Yet when you look at the numbers it really isn't.. ;)
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "Yes, CR is a joke, because it has picked the Accord over a Fusion, so is CD, RT, MT etc, because they picked the Accord/Camry over a Fusion.

    However, Strategic Designs is not a joke (it picked Fusion's interiors over anything else in its class). Neiher is JD Powers a joke (it picked Fusion as the most appealing midsize), nor is the Ford sponsored 'comparison test' a joke.

    Anybody see a pattern here? "

    So, why is the pattern of Honda winning ok? and not Ford? Anyone see a pattern HEAR? :sick:
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Very obvious you missed this discuusion. It has already been proven the V6 Duratec is no louder than a v6 Accord or V6 Camry. DB numbers were posted, I keep posting and posting them, not going to do it again. The DT has VVT and 24valves per cylinder, in no way is it slower to rev.. The numbers don't make sense. This weekend I take my car to a track and I will test it from 45-60. Last night a friend and I did if for kicks and the stop watch said 4.9-5.1 pretty consistantly. You keep trying to downplay the 3.0 Duratec as being a slug and a shoddy engine, when it is not. Granted it is one of the lower HP/Torque V6's in this class. But in now way does an I4 from Honda or Toyota match or beat it. Hope to God I see you on the road... :mad:
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    if all I had was not a penny more than $18-20k - guess I would be hightailing it down to my friendly Sonata dealer.

    Quite true. :)

    These days, Mazda, GM, Hyundai, and others offer compelling choices to the price gouging Honda and Toyota are obviously engaging in.

    And, my typo - obviously I meant V6 from others vs the 4 in the Camry and Accord.

    Btw, when my sister was looking for a car, she narrowed it down to the Civic and the Mazda 3. The reality is that the two cars are so close as to be a wash. Same size, same interiors, same accessories, same power, same...

    There were a total of 4 small differences between the two cars that I could find. The thing that amazed me was that at first I was all "two different cars". Then I looked and drove them and poured over every square inch of them - and darn it if Mazda, Nissan, Hyundai, and others aren't making very close clones of the same car for less money. GM isn't making crud anymore, either.

    She went with the Honda. Me? I'd have gone with the 3 for less money.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    When you buy a stock, would you not consider its history? Which investment would you see as doing better, one with a steady upside, or one with a dicey past, or downward slippery slope. I think it is pretty easy to see the Honda or Toyota as being a better resale value, when compared to cars with a pretty steady history of poorer resale values. Just like, while saying that no one guarantees a stocks value, a wise person chooses quality when investing to better the odds. The Accord has better odds of resale value.

    As for Aura, they are predicting average resale. Average is an improvement for GM cars. If the car is desirable in other ways, I would not say that an average resale value is a barrier to buying this car at all. Some cars which have really poor resale may only work out if you keep them 'till they drop. And in the end I suppose people, self included, start to over emphasize the importance of getting the best dollar value car, when in fact it is the overall pleasure it provides which is important.
    -Loren
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "One of the problems with these 'old' tech V6s, they don't 'like' to rev, and this would definitely be a difference between any of these better V6s (and Honda's 4) and something like the DT3.0.

    captain, you just shot yourelf in the foot... Very obvious you know nothing about the Duratec V6 that is offered in the Fusion/Milan. They come with VVT, dual overheadcams and 24valves.. and believe me they like to rev.... ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    well let's see, the new Altima 4 banger is rated higher than the Accord 4 according to CR, the 6 cylinder the same. But that is not some substantiation of something more than a "accord wins bias"? Or is it simply that they don't agree with you?
    The Honda Accord has been the standard by which all these cars are judged (including Camrys, Altimas etc) and for good reason
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "Total value, if bought at a good price, will most likely go to Accord or Camry in the long run. But there is more to it than that. "

    The whole point here is that you cannot touch a like optioned Camry/Accord for less than $2-4,000 dollars when comparing a Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6/Optima/Altima/Mazda-6. The question is - Is the extra $2,000 - $4,000 premium you will pay for an Accord/Camry worth it to you? and why?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Changing direction a bit, isn't it odd that the 4 cylinders actually have peak torque at lower rpm than the V6s? For example in the 2.3 engine in my Mazda, peak torque is at 4000 rpm, vs. 5000 for the V6? Apparently the situation is similar for the Honda engines, as well.


    Logical to me though, as the engine tuners have more torque to work with overall, they can afford to have higher torque peaks than the 4-cylinder's can, because they have more torque overall.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    May also want to go check out the Kia dealer. The Optima scored very well in a comparo test. Beat the Camry by a nice margin. V6 Optima can be had for under 19K! loaded. If you need just good solid transportation and don't care about having to have a siler "H" or "T" on the hood.. :shades:
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Well, that's purely gearing. Ad it's a sign that they are favoring performance over squeezing every last mpg out of the drivetrain.

    High MPG engines with tall gears and that develop all of their power at high RPMs are unfortunately all too common - and really nasty to drive in stop and go traffic/in a typical city.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The question is - Is the extra $2,000 - $4,000 premium you will pay for an Accord/Camry worth it to you? and why?

    First of all, the Accord was worth it to me, but it was not $4,000 more than a Fusion. More like $1,500 at the time judging by these forums' "prices paid" sections.

    Here are a few reasons why I went for the Accord specifically over the Fusion/Milan twins (since that is a hot topic).

    1.) Interior design. The Accord has better ergonomics with less "eyes-off-the-road time" for me. It also has an interior design that, despite being 5 years old now, still looks more contemporary than the much newer Fusion (and other competitors as well such as Sonata). The Fusion had many things that looked straight from Ford's workhorse F-150 with rectangular stereo and climate control layouts, etc..., where Honda's Accord interior looks custom designed for that vehicle only.

    2.) Fuel economy - The Fusion had lower economy in the 4-cylinder versions, something I was interested in. The difference wasn't large, but something to consider if you take highway trips.

    3.) Engine sound/refinement - the Accord is a sewing machine in comparison to the Fusion. Some people like the more growly sound, and that's good for them, since they have a car that makes it. I prefer a smoother engine; and the Honda I-4 is smoother than some competitor's V6 engines.

    4.) Honda has shown many times that it makes good products. More importantly, they stand behind them when they fail, issuing recalls, extended warranties, and even doing goodwill repairs when the warranty has expired.

    SUMMARY

    To me, the interior alone told me I would be happier in an Accord over a Fusion, because I like the ergonomics, materials quality, and importantly, the tactile quality that comes in Honda interiors. Everything moves very precisely; something that the two Ford's I have been in, simply didn't do.

    Drive the cars yourselves, and make your decision. I made mine, but it doesn't make it the right decision for you necessarily.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I think I would go with the 4-cylinder Optima since the V6 only buys you a small amount more power (185 hp vs. 161 hp). The Optima is a great entry in the 4-cylinder market, but needs the 3.3L to compete in the competitive 6-cylinder market of 230-270 horsepower models.
  • Where are you seeing the difference of 2-4k between the Accord and the Altima? IMO, they are priced quite close; and in fact the Accord may be cheaper these days in real street prices.

    Sonata, definitely, is a very good alternative and a good price difference to boot (I am not too sure about what rebates Hyundai is running these days, but some time back you could buy a loaded V6 Sonata near 18-19k, which is way cheaper than anything comparable). This is not to say the Fusion is not a good alretnative, however I just don't see the price difference of 2-4k between Fusion/Accord
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    He's probably including the typical incentives that Ford offers from time to time in his mental math. Which is fair, to be honest, since Honda and Toyota almost never offer incentives.
  • db numbers are measured in the vehicle - I will give you that the Fusion may have great sound insulation, but it doesn't really truly tell us which of the engines are quieter. Also louder does not mean more annoying - pitch plays a big role what sounds like a meat grater vs. a smooth engine.

    Road rage is not good - you're gonna get killed and kill someone else in the process. Drive safe... remember, your Fusion (because its an early model) only has a 4-star safety rating vs. the 5-star you might encounter in captain's car. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    and I would have a probelm in your 'gouging' comment - while it is true that Hondas/Toyotas and now even Nisaans will cost a few thousand more at any given option level - the fact is that they are worth every penny of it. Why - because that's what they do sell for and that's what over a million people are willing to pay for them. Trust me, if Ford or GM had a car that was good enough to command premium prices, they would be doing the same thing. You can judgmentally call it gouging, or you could also understand good business.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The whole point here is that you cannot touch a like optioned Camry/Accord for less than $2-4,000 dollars when comparing a Fusion/Milan/Sonata/G6/Optima/Altima/Mazda-6. The question is - Is the extra $2,000 - $4,000 premium you will pay for an Accord/Camry worth it to you? and why?

    Personally, I think my Accord is worth every extra penny. I bought an Accord in 1991, and for 12 years and 140k miles the car was great. From the way it held together, the way the engine performed, the very few repairs, the way it drove, and what I sold it for. This experience made me a loyal customer.

    These other cars did not exist in 91, and even if they did, I doubt I would have been as impressed with them. The Accord has had the same name all this time for a reason. Because it is one of very few cars out there with a stellar reputation for quality and reliability. You can honestly say " I'm going to buy a new Accord when this one is 10 years old", and actually know there will be a car named the Accord ten years from now. Can you say that about your car?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Db full throttle: (1) Camry 73.9 (2) Sonata 74.3 (3) Accord 74.7 (4) Fusion 77.1
    This is from post 8526 - and is what matters - full throttle acceleration, that 45-65 pass or whatever. The idle and cruise noise is, of course, close but the above is indicative of what happens when you ask for something out of that DT. And before you think that this doesn't mean much, do some research on the decibel scale (which is logarithmic). 77 dba is a whole lot louder than 74 or 75, but I guess this has already be 'proven'.
    And if you do happen to see me on the road, the only part you may get any kind of look at is my tailpipes! :D
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Back THEN, it was a big difference. Don't let your past experience with a 15+ year old car blind you to how things have changed since then.

    Honda and Toyota charge a lot for their cars and yet, because they split their lineup into luxury and commuter lines(no place in the world do they do this other than the U.S.), there's a real chasm developing.

    Lexus is nice, but toyotas are beginning to feel seriously bare-bones and cheap lately. And Honda - they charge a fortune for an Accord V6 that's not even as good as the Camry V6.

    Paying 4K or more for a commuter-box isn't smart, IMO. It's not like you are splurging to buy a BMW 3 series or sometihng - it's still a crummy plain vanilla sedan.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    while it is true that Hondas/Toyotas and now even Nisaans will cost a few thousand more at any given option level - the fact is that they are worth every penny of it. Why - because that's what they do sell for and that's what over a million people are willing to pay for them. Trust me, if Ford or GM had a car that was good enough to command premium prices, they would be doing the same thing.

    Very well said - and true
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    And Honda - they charge a fortune for an Accord V6 that's not even as good as the Camry V6.

    That's your opinion. I don't agree.

    Paying 4K or more for a commuter-box isn't smart, IMO. It's not like you are splurging to buy a BMW 3 series or sometihng - it's still a crummy plain vanilla sedan.

    That's your opinion too. I think it (EX V6 Accord) is the best car you can get for $25k. You buy what you like, and I'll buy what I like. :D
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "That's your opinion too. I think it (EX V6 Accord) is the best car you can get for $25k. You buy what you like, and I'll buy what I like. "

    You posted it yourself $25K for a V6 Accord EX.. In my region you cannot touch a V6 Accord Ex for anything less. I paid $23,000 for my SEL V6 Fusion, like optioned. Go to the Milan vs Camry Forum and scroll through. You will find a guy who admits he paid upwards of $5,000 more for a Camry than a like optioned Milan.. :surprise:

    I have yet to price the new 07 Altima. But, I would be very surprised if Nissan was asking the same price as a like optioned Accord/Camry. Nissan as always underpriced the big dogs. And remember, because you pay more doesn't mean you get more... ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    You posted it yourself $25K for a V6 Accord EX.. In my region you cannot touch a V6 Accord Ex for anything less. I paid $23,000 for my SEL V6 Fusion, like optioned.

    From my experience over the past 15 years, the Fusion is not worth $23k. No reputation, no history of quality, nothing to indicate the Fusion is worth that much.
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    "From my experience over the past 15 years, the Fusion is not worth $23k. No reputation, no history of quality, nothing to indicate the Fusion is worth that much."

    I haven't been following the discussions so fill me in if I missed anything but the other poster didn't say anything about how much the car is worth (at least the statement you quoted), just how much he paid and how much you paid.
This discussion has been closed.