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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Scape2 wanted to know why I thought my Accord was worth $2,000 more than the Fusion. So my reply was, "my experience, or lack of, with both cars".
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    The Accord SE V6 sedan has a price tag of $23,945 before negociation on pricing. This has the alloy wheels and is better equiped than the Camry for the same price. Looks wise, seems fine to me.

    The Coupe is really a good looking car. If we are talking style.
    -Loren
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,538
    There are incentives being offered. Check Edmunds. $750 dealer money on Accord, $1500 on Pilot, and leases or low aprs on Odyssey, Element, and Ridgeline. For Toyota, 4Runner, $1500; Avalon, $400; Camry, Camry Hybrid, Solara, Corolla, $400; Yaris, $400; Tacoma, $500; sequoia, $400; Sienna, $500; Highlander,$400; FJ, $1500!!!!; and Matrix, $400. And leases and aprs are offered.

    Toyota is cash to customer; Honda, cash to dealer. I used a Dayton area zip code. In this area I've seen an increase in advertising indicating they're pushing more than they've had to do.
  • Buying a Ford nameplate is like buying something that could vaporize into the history books... look at the Lincoln Zephyr model, gone in ONE year. The Five Hundred... now its a Taurus. No one will remember the Five Hundred. Who knows the Fusion will become the Mondeo in 2009? Resale values are totally unknown and will be blown big time if Ford does that.

    I would have considered the Fusion if I could find it for at least $5,000 less than a comparably equipped Accord. Even then, I'd probably have to drive the thing to its death because regardless of what the books may say, no dealer is going to give you much of a trade in on a used Ford car. That's just it - you generally get crappy trade-ins unless you bring in a Toyota/Honda.

    A comparably equipped Ford Fusion SE V6 on CarsDirect for my area is 20,587 vs. 21,254 for an Accord SE V6. That's less than $1k of savings... nowhere near the $5k mark. The cheapest value buy would be the Sonata V6 at $18,466.

    For the extra couple hundred bucks, I get more engine power, stability control and the peace of knowing its a Honda and will retain its value if I decide to buy it over after the lease is done, or I can just wash my hands and go buy the new Accord in 2009 after they get done ironing out 1st year bugs. :D
  • kamdogkamdog Posts: 28
    I had an '89 Accord, drove it 135000 miles and loved it. Had a '94 Accord, (had them both for a while) drove it 150000 miles and loved it. Have an '03 Accord with only 47000 on it and love it. All sticks, all 4 cyl, all great cars, and each one tighter, more efficient, and smoother than the one before. I will need a lot more than a good review for a new, untested model before I even consider switching. A couple thousand dollars makes very little difference over 10 or so years.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    that is just a crazy post. many manufacturers are more than 1 market. even hyundai came back, because of their products in other markets. there are ups and downs. that is the way things work.
  • ontopontop Posts: 279
    Yea - but Ford has a huge albatross hanging around its neck that's choking the company to the brink. It will be a hell of a thing if Ford pulls itself out of this tailspin. With SUVs rusting on dealer lots and F150 sales falling bigtime the pressure is on the Fusion/Taurus/Focus sector to pull the nosediving Fordplane out of its downward spiral.

    Don't like those odds. Good luck Ford. Tick, tick, tick....
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    So Toyota actually has a puny discount. That's the first in well over a year.

    GM and Ford - 2-5K is common at the end of the year, so that's a huge savings if you are patient.
  • Ever heard of the Edsel? Ford may survive, but some of their lineup and model names might becoming nothing more than a sad memory. The Zephyr was gone after a year of production... that is how volatile Ford's lineup is these days. Next up the Five Hundred becomes the Taurus, the Montego becomes the Sable, the Freestyle becomes the Taurus X.

    Pity those that bought Five Hundreds/Montegos/Freestyles because no one will be looking for a used vehicle that people don't remember the nameplate for. :lemon:

    What next? Fusion becomes Mondeo? Who knows? :confuse:

    And this is the desperation at FoMoCo these days... they're resorting to renaming products with slight revisions to sell them. :sick:

    I would say the only thing safe enough to touch in the Ford stable might be the Mustang and the F150... if they try to mess with those nameplates, Ford will be beyond doomed.

    Oh - and not forgetting no more minivans... the Windstar and now Freestar nameplates are RIP. Try and sell one of those and you'll get nothing like the resale of a Honda Odyssey.

    While the name recognition of the Accord, Civic, Camry, Corolla have years and years of solid automotive engineering advancements associated with them.
  • I agree, I'd pay more for a car that doesn't let me down. I had Chevy, ford and dodge, they leaked oil, vibrated badly and left me stranded. No dealer support. I tried a chevy blazer and sold it after a year. I love my jeep, 140k later but I'll only buy foreign sedans. Honda and Toyota seem to get it right. Chevy, Ford and Chysler have had a century to improve quality but Hyundai does it in 10 years? I could get a Milan AWD cheaper than a Camry FWD but it would feel like a gamble. And that's at the core of it, why continue to put faith in companies that let you down.
    I'm trying to decide between a '07 camry SE 6 and an Altima 07 se 6, any suggestions?
  • Yeah, a solid name is worth at least 10% extra. Not to mention that you actually save money when you resell it in 5 years. Due to higher residual values with Camry/Accord, I find that 5 year old Camry/Accord are more than $2k higher than Taurus.
  • I think Toyota's rebate is 500 on the camry for college students that use their financing.
  • I think Camry SE looks way cooler than Altima. And Nissan is only about medium in terms of reliability, inferior to Toyota in that regard.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    How long will the Fusion name last? 5 years? What will the next "New and Improved" name be? To me, it doesn't show much confidence in the product, when you change the name. If you own a Five Hundred, what do you think of the name change? Your car has been discontinued. That's reassuring. :confuse:
  • Thanks, I lean towards the Camry but the Altima is new, seems competitive.
    As for ford, if they could duplicate the Mustangs success at half the price, they may have something. Personally, I'm done with ford. Too many things to list. I wonder if they just didn't want me as a customer? :)
    Thanks again for your input.
    $2000 more for peace of mind and a longer run time is worth it, just wish they'd extend their warranty.
  • virusvirus Posts: 21
    I'm not sure where you derive this from. I've had more problems with my new Camry than I did with my Maxima. My coworker has a 14 year old Maxima with 247,000 miles on it and it's still going strong. I just returned from a month long trip to Japan. Toyota and Nissans seemed to be the most popular with Honda running 3rd. This was my 2nd trip to Japan and Okinawa.
  • w9cww9cw Posts: 888
    Toyota is not without changes in model names and the resultant loss of market perception: Corona (the model that put Toyota on the map here in the USA), Corona Mark II, Crown, Carina, et. al.

    When the Camry name effectively replaced the Corona, Toyota had to rebuild the market perception as well, as they had excellent name recognition with the Corona. I owned a Corona when Toyota dumped it in favor of the "new" Camry. Many Corona owners lost money when that occurred too.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    A comparably equipped Ford Fusion SE V6 on CarsDirect for my area is 20,587 vs. 21,254 for an Accord SE V6. That's less than $1k of savings... nowhere near the $5k mark.

    Invoice on the Ford Fusion SE V6 is $20,523 with ABS. Then there is $1000 rebate. In addition to (not instead of) the rebate there is discount financing. The finacing will probably save most buyers another $1000-1500. So for most the real cost difference is probably going be in the range of $2500 to $3000.

    I bought a 4 cyl Mazda6 (sport value), the most comparable Accord would be the SE. I paid $16,000 (admittedly, this was an unusually good deal, but $16,900 was readily available). I would guess that the Accord SE would have cost me at least $19,338 based on edmunds invoice less the $750 dealer incentive. So the difference for me was $3300 and a more typical difference would have been about $2400.

    Price-wise the Honda competitor to the 4 cylinder Fusion, Milan, Mazda6, or Sonata is the Civic.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "CR's reviews may differ from many other sources because CR doesn't get their bread buttered by the manufacturers. Getting paid advertisements certainly encourages less negative reviews.

    That POV is a joke. C&D and MT talk dirty about GM/Ford products all the time in spite of the ad dollars spent by those two manufacturers. If you really think CR is objective simply because they dont accept ad dollars you have been duped. C&D and MT criticize vehicles all the time as does edmunds. Have you ever read an edmunds review of a GM product? I think it's prety obvious GM's ad dollars have no influence on Edmunds opinions. There are only a handful of GM products edmunds likes.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "while it is true that Hondas/Toyotas and now even Nisaans will cost a few thousand more at any given option level - the fact is that they are worth every penny of it. Why - because that's what they do sell for and that's what over a million people are willing to pay for them"

    They charge as much as they can get away with but I dont agree that the public agrees with the ridiculous MSRPs of some import sedans. The Altima is already being disconted in my area and I'm not surprised because a V6 with options is very expensive. The Camry is also being discounted for the same reason. Remember, import cars can be leased for low rates due to resale value and that is how many people get into leather clad V6 Accords and Camrys. Most people are not going to want to pay $450 a month for a Camry/Accord for 60 months so they lease instead.

    As critics of GM always note, vehicles that are priced properly dont need discounting so I believe that we can agree that the '07 camry and especially Altima are a tad bit overpriced.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Guess you didn't hear about how that stellar Honda engineering is RECALLING all those Civic Hybrids!!!LOL!! :blush: Guess you also didn't know about the transmission issues with all those Accords/Oddessy vans.. I could go on and on also...

    Reading all these posts, it is even more obvious to me Ford has an image hurdle to jump now. If anyone actually does research they will see Ford vehicle reliability of its car/truck line is actually very good. The media is partially to blame for both Ford/GM's image. The unending bashing of anything Ford/GM. Don't get me wrong, I don't totally blame the media. Ford had its stumbles and made some wrong moves.
    I don't really see how the name of a car will deal a death blow for Ford. I don't totally agree either with name changes for the 500 to Taurus. But if you look at how reliable and the great value of the Taurus it may make sense. The 500 now Taurus, is actually a very, very good vehicle. Reliable, safe and value laden. I guess what bothers me most is seeing a piece of American history that is struggling and seeing Americans cheer in its demise. Once this part of American history is gone, its gone forever. Honda/Toyota are not American history. Thier PR is obviously working. :sick:
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    If you dont take my word for it why dont you check the pricing of the Aura vs CAmry. I assure you comparably equipped, the XR is cheaper than the SE. The argument that the XR comes with "too much" stuff is comical. Why would you want your car to have less standard equipment? if you want a car lacking standard features than the Camry SE is for you. IF you think the XR is overpriced I recommend you compare it to its peers with similar equipment levels. It's up to $3000 cheaper than some rivals. According to my calcs an Altima equipped as closely to a loaded XR as possible will run you over $30k.

    BTW, the Aura is clearly better than the Fusion and 6 in almost every area. Not that those are bad cars, but the Aura is newer and better.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "CD's affinity is towards cars that are more on the sporty side (as much as this class can be) and tends to pick cars like the Accord, Mazda6 etc over cars like the Camry etc."

    I dont have a problem with the camry doing poorly in the C&D test but I do have a problem with the Aura finishing 4th when it had the 2nd best performance overall and they praised its handling and styling. Sorry, but it's hard to understand how the car lost to the Accord (3 places behind no less) when it performed so well.

    I would love to see these non C&D comparos where the Accord beat newer cars. I dont think the Accord ever loses in C&D when compared to midsize family cars. It did lose to the TSX and Jetta in a sports sedan test two years ago. at this point in time it's clear to most publications that the accord has fallen behind the Camry and Altima and possibly Aura in most regards. C&D will not allow reality to interfere with their reverance for Honda and thus the Accord will finish #1 regardless of its age.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Maybe Loren should try the XR out but its going to cost several thousand more than a nicely discounted Accord SE V6. "

    The XR has quite a bit more equipment than a discounted Accord XE. 18" wheels, fog lights, 6 speed auto, MP3 jack, trip computer, remote start, 240W sound system just to name a few. The two cars arent exactly equal so it would make sense for the Accord to be cheaper.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "While the name recognition of the Accord, Civic, Camry, Corolla have years and years of solid automotive engineering advancements associated with them."

    exactly. And the thing is Toyota and Honda never change model names or discontinue names. Except for Echo, Paseo, MR2, Previa, Supra, Celica, Cressida, Vigor, CRX, SLX, Legend, etc. Yeah I know some are acuras, but you get the point.

    Honestly, resale value is the last major reason to buy foreign cars. Not that they dont make nice cars, but that is the only area where they have a real advantage in 2007. If you lease resale value isnt going to be a big deal, same applies if you are going to keep the car for a decade. Resale means the most if you plan to get rid of the car in 4-5 years.
  • Invoice on the Ford Fusion SE V6 is $20,523 with ABS.

    ABS alone is not enough to make the Fusion SE V6 comparable to the Accord SE V6. You have to do the tire upgrade to 17-inch wheels (sold only as an appearance package) and traction control. CarsDirect pricing to me is what you can typically expect to get from a dealer in your area, making it much more realistic than using invoice pricing, and that included the bonus cash on the Fusion too. Without it, the Fusion would actually cost more!

    I wanted a cheap lease deal $199/month $1,999 at signing 24 months 12/k miles was the deal at the time when I got the car. Currently you can get $209/month 36 months $2,199 for the same Accord SE V-6... the high residuals on Accords make them excellent for leases right now.

    Compare that to 249/month 39 months none at signing for a Fusion I4 lease deal (not V6), for only a little extra (total cost), you can get into the Accord SE V6 vs. an I4 base Fusion.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    IMO, 16 inch alloy vs. 17 inch alloy is not a significant difference, I believe traction control is less than $100. One can easily buy a fusion at invoice or below any day of the week, at least around here.

    If the alloy size is an issue the Mazda6 with 17 inchers would probably be similar in price to the Fusion.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Well the XR starts out with a good base price, comparable to the Camry V6. I do not want, nor need, moon roof or some of the options like leather or navigation. The pricing is not cheaper for an XR. The XE or XR may be an OK price, especially after rebate. I can get the Honda SE V6 for the same price as the XR before negotiations on pricing. May give the XE another test drive. At least some on the lot are not loaded with junk. I did note they are trying to old side sticker trick. YES, Saturn uses pin stripes and code etchings for security and blah, blah, blah to enhance the old pocket book. Won't work with me. Will see how the XE compares to the i4 Accords. First test runs, Accord won overall.

    If you wish to pay over $26K for the XR Aura, I am sure they would be more than happy to see your money. Last month, 4,100 Auras sold. That ain't too many. I would say the XR is worth $24K or under, and the XE under $21K.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Something is terribly wrong with Mazda sales. Our local dealership has close-outs, and I mean several in stock, of Mazda6 cars for $5K off sticker. I am afraid to buy it, unless I knew for certain the car would be perfect and last seven or more years. By that, I mean I would be impressed and not consider trading the car in. The resale must be pretty bad. Doom and gloom of Ford must be rubbing off. I did note that a Mazda is overpriced to begin with. I am sure most people do not expect to pay a premium for that brand, and a Mazda6 V6 can easily be priced at $29K. Sorry, $27K to $30K for that car is not going to do it. It is not a Cadillac CTS. And yes, the CTS does start at $31K and can be had for less.
    -Loren
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 327
    I agree with you completely in that I feel that a Fusion has to be about 5000 cheaper than an Accord for me to consider it. Same goes for the new Malibu. However, not everyone, and certainly not Ford and GM, feel that the way. I feel that the Fusion and Malibu are closer to the Sonota than they are to the Accord. At least in my opinion, Hondas are "premium" mainstream cars and I am willing to pay for this "premium" I would also say that VW produces "premium" mainstream cars. I don't place Chevys or Fords in this same category. However, I do think Saturn has the potential to become the equal of Honda and VW. However, Saturn is not quite there yet.
This discussion has been closed.