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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    It's tough to say an opinion is wrong, isn't it?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    I noticed it came up again today. Here's the latest official pics from Ford. I can see how this could be the next evolution of the Fusion. Needs an "American" motor though. The HiPo motor for Europe is a 2.5L 217 HP I5. I'm guessing that's the same one you'll find in some Volvos.

    image

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  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Best effort, looks wise from Ford, remains the Milan. Best exterior, and better interior than the Fusion of today.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Consumers are smarter right now. They are buying the best cars for fit / finish / reliability / performance / gas mileage / durability / style / smoothness of the engine, and such. They are also buying more cars made in USA. Better resale value is icing on the cake. That said, there are a handful of domestic cars which may make sense as a fair value overall. Since we are talking in general, then in general those Japan makes are still better. Open up the CR magazine, and look for all those red dots.... lots and lots of red dots under the user survey section of the yearly car report. Then take those which look good in domestic cares and see how up to date a car they really are. You can find a few modern ones here and there. The CTS has done well, and has mostly the right stuff. Then you have some reliable ones which are so boring to look at or drive, you wouldn't want one parked in your driveway.
    -Loren
  • cotmccotmc Posts: 1,081
    The exterior looks very similar to the Volvo S40!

    Must be the same platform.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    I doubt it. The S40 is a compact, the same platform as the Mazda3 and Euro Focus.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,730
    exactly the reason we only had 1 toyota. i guess they are good for other people.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,730
    i know that for some people, 'cr' is everything. it just doesn't work for me that way. it reminds me of the old 'IT' expression, 'nobody ever got fired for buying ibm'. that did change over time.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    Probably the European version of a Ford model and would not come to the US just like the current European version of the Focus did not come to the US.
    That picture looks more like a Focus anyway.
  • It is possible but look back in the 1st intro. of the Focus in 2000. The US spec Focus was change from the original to a US spec. The only one that is close to the origianl was the SVT version. The grill was changed, front and rear bumper,and for the ZX3 & ZX5 is even more obvious that the tail light is change. I don't know what's wrong with the original design. But Ford US have their own taste of car. Which the new Mondeo possibly that Ford US will change it before selling it to the US market. I mean less attractive exterior design.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    BTW, do Ford haters hate the Mazda6? Just wondering since they are the same underneath the sheetmetal.

    although many components are the same, there are several significant differences that make the 6 and the fusion distinctly different cars. the first and probably most important is the suspension. the fusion has a softer suspension which makes the car lean more in corners. although it is still pretty responsive compared to other cars in this class, it is not as quick on turn in, nor as composed mid-corner as a mazda 6.

    another difference is the seats; the 6's buckets are more supportive and hold the driver in place better than the fusion. and of course, one of the main advantages of the mazda 6 is the addition of hatchback or wagon choices for those that desire flexible cargo capability. the fusion does not share this versatility.

    clearly, the target audience for both cars are different which explains the difference in styling and execution. the fact that the 6's platform is used so frequently in mazda's and ford's lineup is a compliment to the quality of this chassis. even with a sportier suspension compared to other cars in this class, the 6's ride is not harsh and does not clunk clumsily after hitting a large pothole. but the fusion is a solid car because it has many of the positive aspects of the 6 like great breaking, good handling, and quick steering, but it softens up the ride to make it more acceptable to families who may not want the edginess and sharpness of the mazda 6.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Of course it is not only Consumer Reports data which indicates these cars as being more reliable. Many other sources, including your local mechanic will tell you they are reliable. As for all the elements of the buying decision, they simply won. Do you think that there is a conspiracy out there to support bad Japanese cars. It would have to include neighbors, and relatives, as well as, every car magazine lying to you about these cars. And I may add GM, Ford and Chrysler have all indicated they were trying to achieve their quality. Are they trying to achieve levels of inferior cars? Why would older people you see, after buying American cars for years, suddenly start buying Japan makes? And I may add second and third Hondas, Subarus, Toyotas and such.

    This doesn't mean that GM and Ford, and German owned Chrysler do not have some good product to offer. Just saying there is a reason people are buying Japan makes. The new Aura is an example of GM coming up with something to compete. And then there are cars like the Chrysler 300 and CTS which are uniquely American.
    -Loren
  • Why would older people you see, after buying American cars for years, suddenly start buying Japan makes?

    My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE. What prompted them to finally try a Japanese car? Well, two primary reasons.

    First, reliability/durability. From their past experiences, they said they could keep their American cars on the road until about 100,000 miles, and their trucks until about 80,000 miles, without spending too much money on repairs or risking breakdowns. After that, the repair bills really started to add up (they kept having fuel pump, wheel bearing, and misc. accessory problems with the Impala even before 80k, and at the same time had to replace the motor in their other American vehicle, a 1998 F-150 with 75k miles). They wanted to see if a Japanese car would hold up better.

    The other reason? Resale value. They looked at projected resale values for the American sedans versus the Japanese sedans that they were considering, and realized just how many thousands of dollars extra they could get back in 6 to 8 years on a Japanese car versus the American cars.

    In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE. What prompted them to finally try a Japanese car?

    It is interesting that people ascribe much higher reliability to all Japanese makes, when it really is mostly just Toyota and Honda that are significantly more reliable (according to CR data, anyway). Looking at a chart from April 2006 issue they show average Toyota at about 30 "problems" per vehicle, Honda at 40, Nissan at just below 60, Buick is virtually tied with Nissan at just above 60, Ford is at about 70.

    There is about the same difference between Buick and Pontiac (which approaches 100) as there is between Toyota and Buick. Yet if someone said "I've had Pontiacs in the past but I am going to buy a Buick because they are so much more reliable than Pontiac", I think most would think they were nuts.

    Per CR data, there is a smaller difference between Nissan and Ford than there is between Nissan and Toyota. Yet people are far more likely to say I will buy Nissan over Ford for greater reliability than they are to say I will buy Toyota over Nissan for greater reliability.

    Similarly there is as much difference between Ford and Chevy as between Ford and Nissan. But when is the last time someone bought Ford instead of Chevy because of greater reliability?
  • "Since their Toyota didnt break down a lot and my Ford did they wont look at anything else."

    Words of wisdom!
  • From their past experiences, they said they could keep their American cars on the road until about 100,000 miles, and their trucks until about 80,000 miles, without spending too much money on repairs or risking breakdowns.

    Compare that to the legacy Honda has set for mileage...

    http://www.hondabeat.com/highmiles.php?intStart=25

    A well built car except for early model bugs should with good maintenance easily last 100k miles without mechanical/engine problems, and I don't see why they can't easily go 300-500k miles in the hands of a good owner.

    But you simply cannot get that sort of reliability consistently from "American" cars... my Taurus had to go before it even touched 100k because I knew expensive repairs were around the corner (probably would have costs as much or more than the car was worth in trade-in value). There are some high mileage Taures I've read about but they tend to have had major work done to keep them on the roads - rebuilt engine, transmission swap, etc. The junkyard is a high mileage domestic owner's best resource!

    One neighbor has a Chevy S10 that past 50k was already having problems and he says he'll never buy another "American" truck again. The only abuse its ever taken was hauling a load of firewood, and the transmission was never the same after. He also owns an older Chevy Blazer... but after the S10, he's done.

    The Accord sells because they get repeat buyers - people keep coming back for another one after having great experiences with older ones. It says a lot more about reliability and true customer satisfaction than surveys of new owners by JD Powers, CR, etc. 80% of Accord buyers are repeat customers!
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    The exterior looks very similar to the Volvo S40!

    Must be the same platform.


    I agree with your assessment of the looks but this platform is larger than the C1 (Euro Focus/S40/Mazda3). Probably a bit smaller than the Fusion, think current Mazda6 size, but stretchable I would wager.
  • Since when is a Focus a midsize sedan?
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Probably the European version of a Ford model and would not come to the US just like the current European version of the Focus did not come to the US.
    That picture looks more like a Focus anyway.


    I'm not making this up guys. Read this and this.

    Ford is seriously considering bringing this over to our shores along with some Aussie RWD cars. I would guess they would be assembled here too.
  • My older in-laws only bought "American" cars until last year, when they traded their Chevrolet Impala in on a loaded Nissan Altima 3.5 SE.

    Wish them luck with their Altima. My mother, after owning a '90 and '99 Taurus, traded for a '03 Nissan Altima. It's had 6 recalls, and over $800 worth of "non-warranty" work, with only 32K miles. Needless to say, she hates it, and wishes she had her Taurus back.

    In 2005 when they replaced the F150, my FIL strongly considered the new Titan. He didn't buy it, "not his style" but just the fact that he considered it over another F150 says alot, IMO.

    He made the right decision, since I've heard nothing but horror stories about the Titan.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Since when is a Focus a midsize sedan?

    Hmm. I think I see the confusion now. Those pics I posted about 15-20 posts back were of the new Ford Mondeo and not the Euro Focus. I didn't specify the model because I assumed most of you would already have seen it on Edmunds' Inside Line front page.

    Am I the only one who reads their news?
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    I guess you haven't read much about the Aura. It's slightly larger, faster, has more features and is generally thought to have a superior interior. It's somewhat more expensive but that is mostly due to equipment levels. Handling and braking for the Aura/Fusion is about a wash.
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "Then you have some reliable ones which are so boring to look at or drive, you wouldn't want one parked in your driveway. "

    If I am willing to park an "exciting" camry or Sonata in my driveway why would I be ashamed to have an Impala or 500 or Fusion or G6? Don't get that. Speaking of red dots, if you look at the detailed ratings iN CR's auto issue you will see mostly red dots and half red dots on domestic vehicles. For some reason in CR a car can have mostly good ratings on components but end up with an average or below average overall ratings. Check it out for youself. Most of those "unreliable" domestics you are speaking of arent even unreliable per CR's tables in the new car issue.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    It's been widely reported that Ford will begin sharing platforms with Europe and Australia. This will include the CD platforms (Fusion, Mondeo). They may import some vehicles short term but longer term the goal is cost savings through platform sharing. There's no good reason to have 2 CD platforms or 2 RWD full size platforms or 2 C platforms. That was a result of organizational boundaries and lack of leadership that let it happen.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    If I am willing to park an "exciting" camry or Sonata in my driveway why would I be ashamed to have an Impala or 500 or Fusion or G6?

    Excellent point IMO. I mentioned a while back that the Taurus, if marketed right by Ford, could steal higher trim level CamCord sales due to it's similar price points. The Taurus (old Five Hundred) will probably be a better overall value than the Camry or Accord V6 at certain price points and it's up to Ford to get that word out. Actually telling people that it's a Volvo for about 2/3 the money wouldn't hurt either. ;)
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "But you simply cannot get that sort of reliability consistently from "American" cars... my Taurus had to go before it even touched 100k because I knew expensive repairs were around the corner (probably would have costs as much or more than the car was worth in trade-in value). There are some high mileage Taures I've read about but they tend to have had major work done to keep them on the roads - rebuilt engine, transmission swap, etc. The junkyard is a high mileage domestic owner's best resource! "

    I would be inclined to believe most modern cars can run 100K miles without major problems, not just Toyotas and Honda. The year of the cars in question is very significant when talking about reliability. People will reference domestic cars from 1985 or 1990 as if it was yesterday. I know time flies, but that is a LONG time ago. The point is CR, JD powers and other sources show that the problems per vehicle for domestic makes is VERY close to that of import makes in many cases and clearly superior to European cars.

    My parents Olds is almost 9 years old with nearly 91K miles and has no tranny or engine work done, it hasnt even had a tune up yet. Give me a break. Lets at least try to focus on horror stories from the last decade or so. I dont think there is any disagreement that 15+ years ago there was a significant difference in quality, but things have changed a lot. Interestingly enough Automobile mag has a long term wrap up of a Ridgeline in the current issue and it had about five unscheduled stops for warranty work. Am I the only one who sees this stuff?
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    People can mock the "new" Taurus and Taurus X but they are solid entries in the under $30k segment. The Taurus has the power it needed, a decent interior, available AWD and much more space than a comparably priced Camry or Accord. for familes who dont care much about styling the Taurus is a great choice. I really like the Taurus X as well and it's mileage is much better than the Pilot or Highlander.
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    The base Pontiac G8 will have a 3.6 "High Feature" V6 which should make it a economical midsize sedan with a sporty flair. :)

    Rocky
  • 14871487 Posts: 2,407
    "How about if the car has lots of plastic squeaks and rattles reported by owners in discussions? Is that reason to never buy that car again? How about if the company is unresponsive to the owners with these problems and has dealers telliing them they need to just adapt to their car or it's their fault for not driving the car right? "

    You'll find that people who are loyal to imports will typically say problems like the ones you describe are the exception and not the rule. Sometimes people will trade in a trouble prone import for another vehicle from the SAME brand. Could you imagine anyone doing that with a domestic? I have noticed Toyota hasnt put that 6 speed auto in the RAv4, Highlander or Highlander and I'm wondering if that is related to the problems they are having.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,213
    Either way, a "Euro" Fusion would easily compete or beat the current Camry and next Accord. The Mondeo does that over there so if Ford doesn't Americanize it (as they did with the original Focus) if/when they bring it over it should do very well.

    GM had the right idea and I think Mulally would be a fool not to follow their lead. Start over with the Euro and Aussie models because they can compete with anything out there right now and going forward. What they have now isn't cutting it, not 100% anyway. Time will tell and I am confident that they will again be 100% competitive in time.
This discussion has been closed.