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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    One way to judge the manufacturers expected reliability is to look at how much an extended warranty costs.

    Sure, but to compare the costs from two different sources, as you suggest is questionable. I have compared cost of 8 year 100,000 mile zero deductible extended warranties from a single source, my credit union. In the case of Fusion and Accord the difference was about $200.

    Another consistent source, that uses extended warranty cost, is edmunds "true cost to own". This shows repair cost for 5 years and 75,000 miles. Fusion $757, Accord $637...I don't know about you, but $120 one way or the other is not going to be a deciding factor for me.

    According the edmunds data, the tiny difference in average repair costs is more than made up for by much higher maintenance costs for the Accord...about $500 higher than Fusion over 5 years.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Look even at the "unreliable" cars...VW Jetta repair costs for 5 years 75,000 miles, $815 (and lower maintenace cost than the Accord), according to edmunds. VW Passat $933 for repair costs.

    Now there are a few truely costly ones out there, but not many. One example is Jaguar X-type with repair costs of $4097!
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    My spin is the media is finally starting to read the internet! The fact of the matter is the media has been bashing Ford/GM over the years endlessly over recalls/TSB's any and all problems. In fact.. What ever happend with the Toyota Prius and its stalling issues? The car just stops at freeway speeds and shutsdown! I read one report on this issue and now its gone. I have yet to hear the reasons? Why isn't there more information on this issue? Why isn't the consumer being notified by the media?
    Granted, this is ONE article, ONE good article out of how many about Ford?? The media has played a part in GM/Ford demise and image. Notice I say PART not REASON.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,700
    Talking about VQ, I used to have 96 Maxima bought new. Its VQ is so smooth, so powerful (that time), all the way to nearly the redline.

    We're still driving our original 1994 Mercury Villager with the Nissan VG (variant of VQ) engine. We're at 215K miles. We've done no work on the engine or transmission. And it is still very smooth and we don't add oil between changes...
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,700
    Refinement is subjective. Show me where the Duratec 3.5L is way behind in power or emissions.

    Is that version of the Duratec related to the smaller one that was in the Mazda MPV around 2002? We were looking for minivans at the time and actually really liked the MPV...until we drove it. Sounded like an imbalanced washing machine up there. Our Accord's 4 and my Jetta's 4 were much smoother and quieter than that engine. If I'm going to spend over 20K for a car it is not just about reliability. I'm going to buy some refinement. I can always rent the thrashy cars.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,700
    he [car] company that has the highest percentage of repeat buyers??

    According to JD Power, that would be Lexus.


    Maybe he was including car rental companies to come up with the high rebuy percentage for GM!
  • What ever happend with the Toyota Prius and its stalling issues? The car just stops at freeway speeds and shutsdown! I read one report on this issue and now its gone. I have yet to hear the reasons? Why isn't there more information on this issue? Why isn't the consumer being notified by the media?
    Granted, this is ONE article, ONE good article out of how many about Ford??


    There were about 30ish documented Prius stalling, before Toyota reprogrammed the car software. There was 0 death.

    There had been more than 100 death caused by Ford Explorer catching fire at the steering wheel, before Ford finally recalled. :lemon:

    You know, people rant a bit more when there is fatality involved.
  • exshomanexshoman Posts: 109
    Two non V8 engines in American cars that I always liked were the 3.8 V6, especially in turbocharged form, and the 3.0 engine used in the Taurus SHO. Yes, I know that that engine was designed by Yamaha, but it was still a Ford engine. When that the variable intake system hit 4 grand, that was some of the sweetest sounding engine around, not to mention the good kick in the backside. I liked it so much I had two. An '89 5 speed, and a slightly less fun '94 automatic.

    As for the 3.8 Turbo, my dad had a '86 Buick T-Type (the supposedly more "adult" version of the Grand National). Always enjoyed borrowing that car. It didn't blow up.

    I don't think Japan had a 6 cylinder in the '80s that came close (with the possible exception of the Supra engine).
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Not really. The new 3.5L is a clean sheet design, not an overhaul of the old Duratec 3.0L.

    Some reviews call the 3.5L "thrashy" while others praise it for being smooth and quiet. It sounds like they're driving different vehicles. I think we need to wait for more reviews based on the production model, not pre-production prototypes.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    There had been more than 100 death caused by Ford Explorer catching fire at the steering wheel, before Ford finally recalled.

    That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE. There are no confirmed fatalities due to the cruise control switch which primarily affected full size trucks and SUVs and only a few explorers.

    Please retract your lie.
  • exshomanexshoman Posts: 109
    akirby is right. I read up on the NHTSA site on this, and they do say that there were no confirmed deaths, but there are 2 or 3 lawsuits out there that are claiming deaths.

    What I think you're thinking of was the Firestone tire debacle.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Did you click on the links? Here's the headline.

    WILLIS & AMMONS LAW FIRMS FILE NATION’S FIRST CRUISE CONTROL DEATH CASE
  • Welcome to the American legal system. They filed a case, that doesn't mean they will win, it doesn't mean Ford is guilty, it means that some law firm decided they could go after Ford and get some publicity.
    Incidentially, the part in question isn't even a Ford part, its a brake component so its either Bendix or Bosch or Continental Tevis or one of the other suppliers that makes brake components.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Incidentially, the part in question isn't even a Ford part, its a brake component so its either Bendix or Bosch or Continental Tevis or one of the other suppliers that makes brake components.

    Still, it comes on a Ford, so Ford will take the blame.
    Panasonic makes the Accord's stereo(last I checked), but the complaints about the display going out go to Honda, not Panasonic.

    I know you didn't say that Ford shouldn't be responsible, but some people will likely see it that way.

    Many automakers have different parts suppliers, but it is the automakers who are selling the product, and they will have to take responsibility, most likely.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    I agree with your point of view. I was just responding to akirbys' post about no deaths being attributable to that one part. It seems that this is inconclusive at best, even Ford is not found liable.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    a couple of nominees!
    The 3.8 that GM is continuing to put in cars these days, has long been reliable and, with the help of some appropriate gearing, economical as well. Limited to about 200hp in normally aspirated forms, it does have however a disportionate amount of torque (as pushrod engines tend to)that can help hide the lower HP. Pushrod designs, of course, are generally not very happy at higher revs, but it is a good choice for those that want a solid if somewhat non-performing engine. I thought they actually tried supercharging the 3.8 as well - but, in any case, not a good way to make up for the any engines inherent limitations. Ford also tried it in a supercharged T-bird. While there are some mfgrs that have made turbocharging a matter of habit, the Swedes and Subaru come to mind, and the technology has improved to a point that it is becoming almost transparent; the mechanical consequences of forced breathing, added mechanical complexity, and drivability issues (lag) remain. Supercharged engines, incidentally, do tend to have less 'lag' problems than turbocharged ones at the expense of some more reliability.
    In this group, don't understand why you would spend the extra money on that 270hp blown 4 in a Mazdaspeed when you can get the about hp and performance in the Camry V6, Altima/Accord V6 - and save a little on FE not to mention the extra 20 cents a gallon. The V6s will 'drive' better and the engine should last longer and/or be less problematic.
    I liked the the SHO engine as well, but it was a Yamaha engine that happened to be in a Ford, as you note. If I remember correctly it did have some reliability issues. GM recently managed to coerce Honda into supplying V6s for the Vue - think there were a lot of Vue buyers out there that were real happy to get the Honda engine. Never did figure out how GM pulled that one off because Honda has always been very protective of their substantial engineering prowess? While it did certainly improve the Vue, it is certainly not a Saturn engine! It is interesting to note that Ford has again enlisted Yamaha's help, a 4.4 liter V8 300+ hp that is available on some Volvos.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    disagree with that, all you really need to do is sit in a Fusion with the engine roaring at 4-5000 rpm, vs. any of these 'Japanese' V6s in the same condition - would even go further and tell you that specifically the Honda and Toyota 4s sound and feel better under load than paticularly the DT 3.0. V6!
    That 'refinement' that you think is subjective is one of the reasons why they sell the heck out of the Accords/Camrys/Altimas, and continue to have difficulties marketing the Fusions/Malibus/G6s etc. And no, I don't think it is a result of some sort of media plot, just the result of some more objective test drives by discerning buyers and professional reviewers.
  • rgyiprgyip Posts: 43
    I would disagree; the 3800 GM "Buick V6" engine is yesterday's engine. At the time, however, it was a solid engine as competitive as any engine of its time. The supercharged 3800 was a very reliable engine; the only time it wasn't is when people modded the engine, which was easy to do. The bottom end on that engine is good for over 600 crank HP. For less than 1000 bucks, you can easily get over 270 HP (300+ Crank HP) at the wheels and run the quarter mile in less than 14 seconds. At the time ('97), the only engine that had 240 HP was the VQ35DE engine in the Altima which didn't come until 2002. One thing that most V6s don't have over forced induction engines is torque. Conservatively ranked, 3800 S/C is at 280 ft/lbs but dynoed at at much at the wheels, the amount of torque allowed gearing that many people got over 31-35 mpgs highway with a supercharged engine with only 4 speeds. I get 27 mpgs combined with aggressive driving and that alone negates the cost of premium gas.

    I would agree that all things being equal, you don't want to forced induce an engine with the performance being the same. Today's OHC engines have better NVH and are better performers. But at the time, the 3800 and 3800 S/C were very competitive engines. But to cut down the supercharged V6 performance and engine reliability I think is wrong. A lot of people don't buy supercharged/turbocharged engines and leave it stock, they mod it, which hurts reliability.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    true, torque has its value and it is a function of reciprocating weight/displacement of the engine, the engine's compression ratio (higher with the forced air), and the engine's geometry (bore and stroke). HP (torque applied over time) remains, however, the best forecaster of a car's straight line performance.
    My remaining question on these blown 3.8s - if they were so good, why did GM abandon them as quick as they did - warranty claims, perhaps?
This discussion has been closed.