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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
What's next, cars with LED taillights are more likely to run stop signs and get caught? Guess I'll continue stopping completely in my Accord then.
What is the actual XLE vs LX percentages? I would like to know. If you get a good interest rate on a loaded Sonata and you put very little down, carry the loan all five years vs. a loaded Camry and same rate and loan pd. it probably isn't as great a gap when you get to the bottom line. I won't enter reliability in the mix because both do not require repairs. I know my Dad didn't repair his Sonata at all in over $100k.
No. That's NOT what he is saying at all.
What he is trying to say is that the Sonata isn't even close to the Camry. He is trying to say the Sonata is years behind the Camry, and not even worthy of consideration. He is using nonsensical terminology and straw men to hide his embarrassment about a car that is 99% the car the Camry is at 75% of the price. On Bizarro world, a feature somehow equates to years. Because Hyundai chose not to offer NAV in the Sonata this year (it's available in Europe, so Hyundai is not technologically challenged) , the fantastic engine, suspension, body, and value are somehow irrelevant. Well I'm not buying his argument or yours.
thegraduate responds "Gee, choe, I didn't realize that the Sonata had 9 airbags! My Accord came Standard with 8 of them."
You must have forgotten about the one sitting in the driver's seat :surprise:
sorry, sorry, couldn't help it! that was too easy...
that said, all this talk about 0-60 times is really kind of silly to me. how often do you drag race in non-competitive driving (read= on public roads)? past a certain point (i'd say around 7 seconds) what difference does that extra 4 tenths get you; you're gonna end up at the same red light as i am in the next two blocks... to me the more important dynamic is handling: how does the car feel in turns, lane changes, or going around corners? can i tell when i'm approaching the car's limit and can i control the (legal) speed i'm going on the curves and bumps in the road? Can I brake late but with confidence to maintain as much momentum as possible? these are the questions that I want the car that I choose to answer.
if i'm trying to get a thrill in how fast i can go in a straight line, i'll just end up with too many tickets.
give me a nice comfortable interior, a car that's nice to look at, a car that let's me put big things in it so I don't have to borrow my in-laws pick-up. give me a car that's a relative good value so i can customize my car and make it more of a statement of what i want it to be for me - which requires a fair level of aftermarket support. give me a group of other people who are interested in similar things as i so that we can complain about the things we don't like so that we can find solutions and improvements while helping others avoid those problems. I love that there are a growing number of good handling cars to choose from; those of us who like to drive are fortunate to have so many good cars to choose from! zoom zoom :P
It's amazing how people can be so influenced by the price and the badge. They are thinking since they paid 30K for their car, you can't POSSIBLY buy a car similar to the Camry for only $20K, right? Since they made the Pony years ago, Hyundai couldn't POSSIBLY produce a car with quality matching the Camry, right? And some of them will probably never learn that steel and glass can not return their loyalty and love.
gee, Mister Leno, that was a good one.
Ok, you're not listening to MY argument, which is pretty different from how you interpreted it.
You aren't buying the argument that is pure fact. Interesting.
My argument consists of:
The Camry offered NAV in 2002; The Sonata hasn't offered it as of 2006 = The U.S. Sonata is 4-5 years behind in offering some technological features here. It's FACT.
The Accord offered XM radio beginning in 2004; The Sonata hasn't offered it as of 2006 in the U.S., and has not announced plans to (that I'm aware of) = Behind in offering technological features here. It's a FACT.
You don't HAVE to buy the facts, you can ignore them. It doesn't bother me, but frankly, it's a little ignorant of you.
YES, I know that Hyundai has NAV offered elsewhere. Well guess what, the Accord in Japan has much nicer styling than the U.S. Accord, but I'm not arguing about that because it isn't relevant to this U.S. sedans' discussion. THAT'S why I'm ignoring your plea that NAVI is "offered elsewhere"...We aren't talking about "elsewhere" in here, and I'm not talking about a lack of development, because that isn't the case for Hyundai. They HAVE the technology, they are just, AHEM, FOUR TO FIVE YEARS BEHIND IN OFFERING SUCH FEATURES IN THE U.S.
bobad said:
"On Bizarro world, a feature somehow equates to years."
Nope, only the RELEASE of the features, which happened some time ago for Toyonda, that time happens to equal YEARS.
Now boarding Bizarro Airlines Flight 244 to Bizarrotown!
http://www.visteon.com/newsroom/press/2006/060228_story1.shtml
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And you've got to ask yourself why.
I can find my office just fine without NAV. Who needs NAV in a commuter car?
I think the Sonata's model mix is perfect. For 15K, you get a spirited 4 and a few trinkets. For 18K, you get a very advanced and powerful V6, and a package of extras that almost everyone wants or needs. For 20K, you get handsome leather, climate control, and a few more trinkets. For 26K, you get the "Azera package", which stretches, widens, and maxes out on the trinkification.
All seriousness aside, it doesn't make a lot of sense to add too many options to the Sonata. It would make the price overlap the Azera, which is another fine car at an unbeatable price.
Neither does it makes sense to add 6K worth of options to the Camry, where the price starts getting close to Lexus territory.
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And you've got to ask yourself why.
I can find my office just fine without NAV. Who needs NAV in a commuter car? "
This is the exact point i been trying to make all this time, i just don't understand the counterarguments about this
does most buyers in this kind of segment care about this kind of device or can the majority even afford it? They cannot but since it is developed they are certainly paying some price for it. And because hyundai does not offer this device when they could, makes this car 4 or 5 years behind? thats just nonsense if you ask me.
Hyundai is not a dumb company and i think they should be given credit for trying to ease into the market instead of trying to battle head to head with camcords cuz they are still new in the block.
The sonata is def a great mix for a mid size car, its sort of too quiet for its price.
Yes agreed most of the buyers of midsized sedans don't need or want; V6 nor leather nor Navi nor Bluetooth.
This whole discussion is about those who do want it!
Edmunds comparo, my comments and the gradutate's comments are that on the top trim models the Sonata is not 99% of the vehicle for 75% of the price but likely 75% of the vehicle at best. It's a competent V6 at a good price, nothing more. There is nothing there to grab the attention of a more well to do buyer except price.
This is not at all about 4c commuter vehicles. We know the result of that comparo and Sonata won that one. Time to move on.
Pending the Altima and Accord updates, right now the Camry is significantly more advanced in V6 technology, transmission, fuel economy and up scale features. That is the sole point.
Significantly more advanced?? haha wow thats just amazing statement and pretty unfair also. How much newer is this car? the sonata was really released early 2005 in korea, and the camry was really released just now(this is their market).
Is the camries engine significantly more advanced than the bmw's 325 or acura tsx? they both have lower horses, are pretty average in gas rating. Significantly more advanced is a v6 comapred to a inline 4(most cases), porches engine compared to a is350 but the sonata and camry boasts very similiar technologies in their engines(the edge is for the camry, there is no doubt) but don't say significant when its not.
Transmission is the same matter, the sonata has triptronic crap some people like, i don't know if the camry has that, nor if its really needed, much like how i feel a 6 speed is unnecessary in this segment. One speed difference does not make it significantly better.
And fuel economy are the same at 22mpg so i don't know where your getting at with that. mpg per horses the camry is better i think is what you are trying to say
One last point i want to make is, you said you are mostly talking about the xle, but honestly the truth is how many of these cars will toyota sell?? how many cars will the sonata sell its lx?? If camry owners buy a LE but keep saying how awsome the camry is cuz the xle is so good, i mean thats i dun even know the word for that
People like gizmos, and often pay way too much for them. I bet you a high percentage of NAV users pay over $100 per use!
The Sonata's price and features make it an absolute killer commuter car. It will arguably get you to work in more style for the money than any car in history. Adding $5K worth of toys would destroy the unprecedented value.
Sometimes I have a tin ear, but I think I'm hearing SOUR GRAPES from the Camry and Accord crowd. I think many of them didn't drive the Sonata before buying their car, and don't even want to discuss it.
All seriousness aside, if I practically lived in my car like many road warrior's do, I would want every gizmo in the world to fight off the loneliness and boredom. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with buying a decked-out little pocket limousine in that case.
I am having second thoughts about NAVs after looking through the discussion as of late. I have NAV in my current car (gave to me for free ), and I have used, at most two or three times since I leased the car two years ago. Useful? not really...I will likely not add the option (unless it's free again ) when the lease of my car is up, which is coming up very soon. Anyway, give me a copy of the latest McNally, a highlighter, and I'm good to go
Correct, I am only talking about the XLE trim. We all know that this is only a small percentage of buyers in the midsize segment. However, it may be that by giving the Camry so much in this trim that Toyota is going to emphasize the V6 XLE more than in past years. It very well may be a nod to Hyundai that the Sonata is very very competitive so rather than fight it out in the $18000 range why not look for new buyers in the $29000 range. How many competitors are in the $28-29K range relative to the under $20K range... not many.
Well, there's a few. Just off the top of my head:
A4
Avalon (corporate in-fighting!!)
Azera
Accord
TSX
Lucerne
CTS
Maxima
300
Charger
Five Hundred
Montego
Zephyr
MazdaSpeed Mazda6
C-Class
9-3
Legacy / Outback
Passat
And there's several more on the edge, e.g. in the $28-29,000 range with a good discount/rebate or a demo.
If you want to compare cars by price range, then you should compare the Azera to the Toy xle, as I believe you've said before.
I'm a techie, and have been for many years, but sometimes you can carry unnecessary gadgets simply too far. I've travelled across the country a bunch of times, and driven in practically every major metro area, and a simple map does just fine.
And, who wants to support Howard Stern, and Sirius, anyway. I hope his big contract drives Sirius to file BK.
Does buyer X who wants NAVI in Heartland, Kansas care that the car he's looking at has the features in Korea? No, he just cares that they aren't offered to HIM.
I'm only stating that they are behiind in what they OFFER, not what they create! That's all I've said for the last 5 posts!
If Hyundai can sell cars for $40,000, you will have a maid in the car who does anything you want and beyond your imagination. At 20,000, what do you want more than 6 air bags and ECS that other company won't even give for a option?
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Either you have not driven the vehicle, or you're living on Bizarro World.
Body quality...wash
Engine...wash
Transmission...wash
Interior...Camry
Standard features...Sonata
Ride...wash
Quietness...wash
Styling...wash
Suspension...Sonata
Price...Sonata
Resale...Camry
Relaibility...wash
Safety...wash
The rest are bells and whistles, and do not make up even 1% of the cars, much less the 25% Bizarro World figure.
You paid too much, get over it. I made the same mistake a few years back, it makes you wiser.
And, as long as we are using Edmunds' comparison, keep in mind the Camry only came in a hair above the Accord (by less than a point if I recall); further, while the overall results were impressive, it did not post leading numbers across the board so claiming the car is years ahead seems to be a bit presumptuous. Adding to that both senior editors picked the Sonata as their personal choice
I agree again that everything everyone else has said about base models and capabilities and prices is absolutely correct. No question.
Body quality...wash - possibly let's wait 4-5 yrs
Engine...wash - wrong .. the Toyota engine is far ahead
Transmission...wash 5 spd vs 6 spd.. sorry no go
Interior...Camry
Standard features...Sonata XL V6 vs XLE V6 .. sorry 'wash'
Ride...wash
Quietness...wash .. I think Sonata slightly
Styling...wash
Suspension...Sonata .. personal preference Camry's have always been very capable I think 'wash'
Price...Sonata .. absolutely
Resale...Camry
Relaibility...wash .. probably but let's wait 4-5 yrs to be sure.
Safety...wash
Again in the market segment to which the XLE V6 and Azera is being dircted 'bells and whistles' as you say are an important consideration. Without certain amenities certain vehicles are never considered. An Acura buyer will never buy an xB as his primary vehicle for example even at $20000 less money. Pricing only goes so far in attracting this segment of buyer.
As noted before the XLE V6 and the Azera and the EX Accord as well as other's mentioned by Backy are the competitive choices for these buyers. But not the Sonata or Malibu or Sebring, et. al.
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I'm speaking about model for model. cheap-o vs cheap-o, middle vs middle, LX Sonata vs whatever equivalent trim level of Camry.
Going down that list again, even if I accept your changes, I still don't see where the Sonata is 4-5 years behind. And I CERTAINLY don't see any significant differences in "capabilities". I want to know specifically what all those capabilities the Camry has that the Sonata doesn't have.
It's easy to throw words out there, but when it comes time to back them up, it suddenly gets very quiet.
I don't see where he said the Sonata is 4-5 years behind.
All he said was that we need 4-5 years to see if the Sonata is indeed up to the standard (or behind).
Also, any thoughts on the 2007 Camry's reliability? I'm kind of concerned about it. The first year of the 2002 Camry got a white dot in CR, but then improved. The latest Avalon got a white dot.
And why do we need 4-5 years to see if the Sonata is up to standards? The fact is, already, the Sonata is up to the standard in the midsize class TODAY, and if you would not admit that being the case, then sadly, I guess badges are more important to you.
In eight years of prior models, the 4-cylinder Camry has zero black marks and three "clear" marks on its entire reliability history. The V6 Solara, in seven years, has four black marks, but scores perfectly in engine and transmission.
FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME I'm going to say what my point was: It ISN'T that the Hyundai is behind on development, but that it IS behind on giving techno options to us compared with Toyota. NOTHING ELSE! Everyone is making me into a bad guy for a FACT that I said! STOP IT!
But we continue to talk at cross purposes, you at base and middle trims - me at top trims, so let's let it rest. We are not progressing.
I will leave it that the Sonata is a very good buy for an economy shopper.
On the safety front, Hyundai is doing great, as they are on powertrains, too (get a 5-speed in the 4-cylinder and things will be just gravy!). A little lacking in refinement, handling, and features were the only faults I found. My point, which bobad, kwonc, and choe seemed to be rephrasing into me badmouthing, was that they are behind in offering things like NAVI and XM, and will probably continue to be with Toyota now offering bluetooth and keyless GO, for a little while. Not that they CAN'T, but that they are choosing to be 5 years behind in offering THOSE features.
This is not an economy-minded shopper. There are significant but not huge numbers of these buyers. The pricing is of little or no consideration.
As a confirmed 'bargain hunter' myself I understand economy buying. As a matter of fact I prefer 2-4 y.o. used vehicles with 40-60000 miles on them over new vehicles. I am an 'economy-minded' shopper.
Not to be argumentative, but I also had a '96 Accord, and I think my 06 Sonata is better in nearly every way. I have the base GL (4/at); I had the LX version of the Accord. It was the 2.2 with 4sp at. Now we have a 2.4 with AT, not that different. The Sonata seems faster, gets better gas mileage, and is simply a better looking car. (I don't think I should mention the prices..., but I will: The Accord LX was $19285 in 1996; the Sonata was just over $17K in July of '05.)
I get your point about not offering all options HERE. I agree with you.
Re: the V6s in the edmunds.com comparo
Engine- Camry provides 33 more horses, accelerates the vehicle more quickly, and provides the same or better efficiency.
Transmission- based on the edmunds.com comparo, the Camry's does a more transparent job. I don't think the 5 speeds vs. 6 matters- for me, its the job that gets done, not the mechansim.
Suspension- going back to my comment on mechanism. Do people really care that the Camry has struts? According to edmunds.com, the Camry's handling is very good, and EVERY article on the new Camry I've read thus far has stated handling is much improved.
Safety- I don't know if its a wash. Both the Camry and Sonata have posted scores of "Good" in the IIHS frontal offset. However, we only have data on the Sonata for side impact- and it scored "Acceptable", leaving the door open a bit for the Camry. That said, the Sonata has ESC standard, whereas VSC is optional on the Camry (though it seems to be widely available- when I build a Camry using my zip, it shows as part of packages on all models I've configured... except the CE).
Reliability- the Camry is a redesign, as is the Sonata.... I dont think there is enough info yet.
~alpha
Actually as you can see from the profile I traded my 4th Camry last year on a Prius ( great deal at the end of the MY ).
I would buy another Camry again ( prolly the hybrid version ) when this Gen hits the used car market in 3-4 yrs.
If gm wants to save itself it really needs to bring opel here.