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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Camry looks much like the Mazda 6, don't you think?
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Consumers are going to realize, far before all the auto writers and reviewers.. that the Camry and Accord are no longer the great values they once were. All it takes is for that one person to drive either a Sonata, Fusion, Jetta, G6, Impala, or whichever.. for 100,000-150,000 miles and the magic of Toyota/Honda reliability are gone. Then what? Game on folks...
    And please.. don't come back with the typical response of the Sonata, Ford, whichever would never make it 100,000 miles story... Get out on the net, read in other rooms. All car brands are making the miles... Cheers...
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,687
    Value is one thing. Some people are looking for the most car for their money. But others are looking for luxury features like nav, Bluetooth, Smartkey etc. which until recently were available only on luxury models. Until makes like Ford and Hyundai start offering features like these in their mid-sized cars, they will not be able to compete for these buyers who don't mind spending $25-30k on a mid-sized family sedan. But how many of these buyers are there, and would they be attracted to cars like the Avalon or TSX, or even the Azera, at this price point?
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    seem to illustrate that all of these cars are equally reliable. Yes, this may be true, but where is the factual evidence? I doubt a mere statement like, "Get out on the net, read in other rooms", is enough to motivate a consumer to try a new brand. Not to say no one in these boards have credibility, but we should always take everything with a grain of salt. I'd rather put my trust on a reputable source like CR or JD powers, than a forums board. Even then, sources like CR and JD powers may have flaws. The biggest factor I found that influence consumers purchases are personal experiences. I know many people who have built on going trusts with brands.

    I don't see Ford, VW, Chevrolet, etc... currently matching Honda's and Toyota's ranking in CR and JD powers.

    Saying, "All car brands are making the miles", is a little to bold at this time.
  • the problem with that theory is this...

    Some people have had bad experiences with GM, Ford, VW and other companies in the past. True, some have had bad experiences with Honda and Toyota as well...but for years, particularly during the 1970's and 1980's, folks got so disgusted with GM and Ford that they turned to Honda, Nissan and Toyota and have not looked back.It will be TOUGH for GM and Ford in particular to gain those customers back.

    My mother, for example used to drive a Chevy Vega way before my birth as well as a Ford Escort. The Escort was her last "domestic" car because she got rid of it for a Civic back in 1983. The Civic never gave her a problem..so she stuck with Honda...eventually buying a 1984 Accord, 1992 Accord, 1995 Passport and 2003 Honda Odyssey. She is in the market again for a new car and guess what car she is going to get? Another Honda..rather it be the Pilot, Accord or another Odyssey.It's hard to break owner loyalty if a certain brand has been good to you. My mother is only a simple example of WHY Hondas, Toyotas and to an extent Nissans sell so well.GM and Ford are going to have a tough time breaking into these segments because for years all folks have recommended were Hondas, Toyotas and Nissans and for good reason..because they have been good cars.

    The simple difference between where GM was in the 1970s and 80s compared to how Toyota, Honda and Nissan are now is the fact that these companies keep IMPROVING upon their cars. Back in the 1970s and 80s, GM and Ford along with Chrysler allowed the Japanese to take over the market.

    You won't see that happening with Toyota or Honda.

    Further, GM's pricing may be coming down now...but before the sticker slashing starting taking place the cars were too expensive for what they were. Sure rebates and other incentives were available, but consumers were turned off by the pricing.

    Basically GM and Ford have to FIRST..get people into their showrooms to look at their products. If they can't at least get NEW people who haven't always brought their products they basically fail at gaining new consumers.

    For example..Hyundai is doing an excellent job right now of getting new people into their showrooms because the Sonata offers so much for so little. The Fusion is a pretty good car and is better in many ways than the current Camry or Accord. But that won't last long...the new Camry hits lots this week..and before long their will be a new Altima and in a year and a half a new Accord.

    See what I'm getting at? True, the domestics have improved steadily, but once they do improve, its time for other cars in the segment to get redesigns as well.

    True, there will be those who buy nothing but GM and buy nothing but Ford..but what GM and Ford has to work on is getting those who buy imports into their dealerships..and those first time buyers to buy their products.

    If they can do that..THEN Honda, Toyota and Nissan have something to worry about.

    And on the same token..its gonna be TOUGH for Toyota, Nissan and Honda to break into the full-size truck market because GM and Ford in particular have always made good trucks.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    In reality, the difference will not be only $1300 since the Accord can be had very heavily discounted after being on sale for 4 years and the Camry isn't even available yet and will sell for near MSRP for at least a little while.

    Compare street prices not sticker prices.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    True. My 2006 EX Accord was had for $22k and change. It stickers near $23,800, I think.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I think Honda and Toyota are conceding a good share of the lower end of this sector to Hyundai. The gentrification of the CamCord has raised their price tags, but their competition for the EXV6 and SE trims is tamer than that on the lesser trims. Unless CamCords start lowering prices Hyundai will buy more and more share with their pricing. HonToy's gotta see that!

    But who knows? With the boomers retiring a new segment could arise that starts a whole new 'war', like mini's or crossovers.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Compare street prices not sticker prices."

    Actually, I'll compare what I want. If you want to compare street prices, then be my guest.

    A street price comparison is much more relevant to someone getting the car right now, obviously. An MSRP comparison is more relevant as a general tool to measure a car's value over time.

    A street price comparison will ALWAYS disadvantage a new model car. Heck, even the Sonata sold at MSRP for a month or so. Now you can get one for $4000 off MSRP. When the 2008 Accord comes out, it'll sell at MSRP too. By then, the Camry will be selling near invoice.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    Yes, this may be true, but where is the factual evidence?

    There isn't any. You'll have to ask the manufacturers for that and something tells me they won't give it to you.

    I doubt a mere statement like, "Get out on the net, read in other rooms", is enough to motivate a consumer to try a new brand. Not to say no one in these boards have credibility, but we should always take everything with a grain of salt.

    I'd rather put my trust on a reputable source like CR or JD powers, than a forums board. Even then, sources like CR and JD powers may have flaws.

    The biggest factor I found that influence consumers purchases are personal experiences. I know many people who have built on going trusts with brands.

    I think you contradicted yourself once or twice in there. Were you maybe just trying to tell us to research thoroughly before buying and don't rely on just one source of info? :confuse:
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    I do not trust the CR reliability rating. However, I do trust the reliability rating of Automotive Information Systems (AIS), which can be found in msn.com. I had an engine problem with 2002 ES300 just out of warranty. After searching msn.com, AIS points out that 2002 ES300 has significant engine problems, and it will cost about $500 to fix. This is what cost me.
  • prosaprosa Posts: 280
    A street price comparison is much more relevant to someone getting the car right now, obviously. An MSRP comparison is more relevant as a general tool to measure a car's value over time.
    A street price comparison will ALWAYS disadvantage a new model car.


    Is there any rule of thumb as to how long a new model is likely to sell at or above MSRP, for example the first six months after going on sale? Or is there too much variation to generalize?
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "Is there any rule of thumb as to how long a new model is likely to sell at or above MSRP, for example the first six months after going on sale? Or is there too much variation to generalize?"

    I think it's too hard to generalize. Popular cars like hybrids might remain near MSRP for a long time.

    But with a high-volume mainstream car like the Camry, discounts will start soon. It also depends on the model though. Models with nav are usually harder to discount, for most cars.
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 843
    Have you had infamous sludge problem?

    Krzy
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Posts: 2,697
    Even nav doesn't matter forever. Nav systems are not that amazingly in demand or else they would hold more than 25% of their original cost after 3 years and not actually lower the residual percentage on cars so equipped.
    It just depends on what the supply and depend is.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Trust CR or JD anylonger. After reading so many contradictions in reviews I was tired of the bias. What was ok on a foreign brand was not ok on a domestic brand. I just can't trust a magazine that polls only its readers (CR). There also used to be a board here at Edmunds about CR and wow! what an eye opener. People would post actual contraditions, bias, wrong data ect.. from CR.
    I do like the internet and seeing real world car experiences that people have had. For the most part people don't complain about their vehicle if its running fine. I feel a good 90 percent of complaints are valid here at Edmunds. Most people are not going to take the time to compliment, they will take time to complain. You do get your others that love to bash a certain car brand.
  • scoti1scoti1 Posts: 676
    If your engine problem was due to sludge, then you may actually have been eligible for a free fix. Toyota has a policy for sludge that includes 1997 - 2002 ES300's (although the coverage for 2002 is limited to those manufactured before sometime around April 2002, you will need to verify by VIN) that is for 8 years/unlimited mileage. You need to provide proof of reasonable maintenance to get the free repair. You may want to check and see if you can get your $500 reimbursed if this is what it was for (usually this repair is more in the range of $4000 - $5000, so I am wondering if it was something else wrong or if they partially paid for the cost).
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Hi chadz - sorry you've had a bad time with your Passat.

    I moved your post to our Passat 2006+ discussion since it was more appropriate for either that or the Passat 2005 and earlier topic. Let me know (pat AT Edmunds.com) if I guessed wrong.

    Here's a link to where it is now: chadz1969, "Volkswagen Passat 2006+" #1376, 1 Mar 2006 1:45 pm
  • jvc23jvc23 Posts: 5
    As a long time fan of Toyota (I now drive a Lex) I am impressed and delighted to see the improvements brought about by Hyundai. While Toyotas and Hondas are possibly still a bit better on the average than the better domestics and Hyundais, the absolute differences are much smaller than they used to be. But the price gap seems substantial. In that sense, Toyota is not the bargain it was in 1990. Whereas the ratio of defects of new Toyotas to Hyundais or Buicks may have been on the order of 6% vs. 11% at one time, I'm guessing it's now more like 3% vs. 4%. I worry that Honda/Toyota are getting fat and lazy -- still making good cars, but pricing them too high. And a little butt kicking keeps them in line and keeps us all better off.

    If I were to buy in a few years, I might consider a two year old Azera over a similar Avalon.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I suspect that Toyota and Honda will start pricing their cars more competitively now that Hyundai has made inroads against the Camcords because of pricing. If the Sonata didn't have these rebates they wouldn't sell nearly as many. Hyundai is obviously buying market share here.

    Just like the new Kia Sedona minivan. Pricing them in the 30s? At that price you can get a Odyssey or Sienna. Why suffer with the Kia thing with that price tag? Rebates - here they come.
  • cxccxc Posts: 122
    "Hyundai is obviously buying market share here"

    Do you know that Toyota made about $15 billion profit in 2005? Most came from the US sale. Camry has a very high profit margin in a way like big 3 SUV in a few years ago. The same is true for Accord. Camry and Accord are over-priced. The high resale value of SUV is history. The same may happen to Accord and Camry. By pricing Sonata reasonably and offering incentives, Hyundai still makes reasonable profit.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    With Accord getting one of the highest resale values in the industry for many years(CR), I wouldn't look for it to drop off too badly. It may hurt in year 5 of its current model, as the 2002 Accord did, and the 2006 Camry are now, because of deeper discounts offered from new purchases, though.
  • How do you know what Hyundai's profit is? They're so closely held by the SK government their 'profit' numbers can be whatever they want them to say. The SK government's economic security is so closely tied to Hyundai's success there is no telling how the two are linked. Honda could disappear from the American landscape and barely cause a ripple. Hyundai crashes and burns and it takes a good chunk of the country with them.

    Not denying they build a better car these days, altho I'd never send em a penny. Just seems they're a nationalistic company, and that appears protectionist and propped up.
  • mjchsfmjchsf Posts: 16
    Is there something wrong with a nationalistic company? You are sending pennies to Honda because it's not closely held by Japanese government? I don't know how you are so certain Honda is not getting support from its government, and its disappearance will not cause a ripple. It's not hard to imagine what the US government would do when the GM looks to go under. You have seen more protectionism in the name of national security (or pride & arrogance), like in the cases of Chevron and those 6 ports.
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    Perhaps people are forgetting how protectionist Japan was with its car companies in the 90s. To the extent that the US almost imposed a 100% tariff on Japanese luxury cars.

    The Japanese gov't still protects its companies with currency intervention on a daily basis.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    My thoughts on protectionism: Very boring and not the topic of conversation on this thread.

    The Sonatas sales for February remain strong, but still, as pointed out before, LOTSA incentives, and still no Fleet % has been shown....

    ~alpha
  • jrock65jrock65 Posts: 1,371
    "My thoughts on protectionism: Very boring and not the topic of conversation on this thread."

    Agreed. It's just funny when people talk of Hyundai as if they're the only car company receiving government support.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    "LOTSA incentives" is good for the consumer. I bought an '05 Sonata last April, only $1500 rebate on the GLS SVat the time. Current rebates make purchasing a new Sonata even more attractive for the buyer.

    The Sonatas sales for February remain strong...

    Yes, I agree "strong" is a good way to describe a 41% increase in sales compared to year ago numbers.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    And incentives have done great things for GM and Ford, especially resale and brand reputation. But oh, those $21K Supercharged Impalas!

    ~alpha
This discussion has been closed.