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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    The Civic is a family sedan to some. While safety may not be as much of a priority in the Civic, I wouldn't go so far as to say that it's not a priority at all in it's class.

    I never said traction control and ESC were the same thing. My point is that I don't feel like it will be a make or break option for MOST people. When I bought my Accord I was glad it has the SCAB but I could not have cared less if it had ESC or traction control. IMO, I've been driving for 10 years without it and don't feel as if it would make a difference in my particular case. If you go so far as to say that ALL cars need ESC and are unsafe without it then you might as well go one step further and say that all cars should be AWD/4WD.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The Honda and Toyota quality perception has been earned by many years producing reliable cars. However, I'm old enough to remember when the first Honda's and Toyota's were sold here in the USA. Practically everyone here perceived the Japanese cars the same way that many perceived the Korean marques over the past decade or so.

    I've been in the market for a new car since March, and went through weeks of comparison shopping and test drives. The final two choices were the Accord LX and the Camry LE, and the Camry won based upon a number of criteria for my family. But, just for grins, I inspected and test drove both the Hyundai GLS Inline 4-cylinder and the V6 last week, and there is no doubt Hyundai is moving up the ladder. The build quality appears excellent and the V6 is an impressive engine. It appears that with the introduction of the 2006 Sonata, Hyundai may be mirroring the transformation that occured with Honda and Toyota products over the years. If so, the Japanese manufacturers may have some valid competition.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "When I bought my Accord I was glad it has the SCAB but I could not have cared less if it had ESC or traction control. IMO, I've been driving for 10 years without it and don't feel as if it would make a difference in my particular case."

    Thats your perception, which may be right or wrong (just because you've never had an occasion where ESC saved your bum, doesnt mean that you wont). Also, why did you ignore my question about ABS? How often does it activate in your Accord, and given that number (high or low), are you glad its standard? I imagine you probably have no problem with ABS.

    "If you go so far as to say that ALL cars need ESC and are unsafe without it then you might as well go one step further and say that all cars should be AWD/4WD."

    Yea, didnt say that, not even close, so lets not jump off the deep end (and again, ESC does not correlate in anyway to AWD/4WD).

    ~alpha
  • fezzyfezzy Member Posts: 83
    I have been reading the post and am quite lost. How do you know if you abs activated in your car? I have never known when my ABS activated or not and that's over 200k miles know. I know that in some cars you know when you ABS is out of order or disabled by the glowing light. Other than that I didn't know that there was a way to tell when your abs has been activated.

    Now there is a way to disable your abs for testing reason but your car will re-enable it on start up once you turn the ignition off. But due to safety precautions the information on how to disable your ABS is not readily available.
  • gmctruckgmctruck Member Posts: 186
    I had a manager once who's favorite tag line was "perception is reality!" But the reality is that every car manufacturer has put out a bad product sometime in their history. Honda and Toyota are no exception. They are reliable for the most part, but they are not trouble free. I don't think there is such a thing as a perfect trouble free machine, which is what a car really is. As Honda's and Toyota's age, they do require maintenance and repairs that can be quite expensive just like any other car. I had a neighbor who owned a Honda Civic. One day she was driving on I-95 when the timing belt broke and bent every valve in the engine. My sister owned a Toyota that burned oil and smoked like a chimney... You asked for it, you got it...Toyota! My point is that there are cars out there that are just as good as Honda or Toyota and just as reliable. Perception isn't always reality,but it does sell cars. BTW, those Datsun Z cars were awesome machines. :shades:
  • gmctruckgmctruck Member Posts: 186
    You can tell when the ABS activates because you will feel pulsating in the brake pedal and may also even hear noises from the ABS during that time. The ABS does not activate under most normal driving conditions. The car's computer might keep a record of ABS activation, but you should be able to tell if the ABS kicks in while you're driving the vehicle.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    As Honda's and Toyota's age, they do require maintenance and repairs that can be quite expensive just like any other car. I had a neighbor who owned a Honda Civic. One day she was driving on I-95 when the timing belt broke and bent every valve in the engine. My sister owned a Toyota that burned oil and smoked like a chimney.
    You're just taking a small sample size and your assuming it happens to all Honda and Toyota owners. I agree it does happen to people, but i know a few people who own old Honda's and Toyota's that have gone trouble free.

    My point is that there are cars out there that are just as good as Honda or Toyota and just as reliable.
    Can you show proof that there are car manufacteurs that are as reliable as Honda and Toyota. If american car companies do start making reliable cars (which they are starting to), it will be very hard to convince consumers. During the 80's-90's Honda and Toyota continued to make better cars while American car companies continued to make unreliable cars. People will always remember that.

    This is a little off topic but last night i was talking to my friend about the GM discounts, and he pointed out a problem. As you know GM right now has employee discounts their plan is to sell more cars (which is working) but are actually making less of each car. Their plan of selling more cars could backfire when they take it off. People right now know how much am employee discount is, and when GM takes off this offer people will think "oh, i could get the car at that price, why should i buy it now" So basically what i'm trying to say is when they take the employee discount offer off, a lot of people will not buy their cars.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Fezzy,

    gmctruck answered quite well the question you posed to me. Additionally, there are a FEW cars (though not many) which have "ABS Active" warning lights on the dash. I drove some miles in the winter in a friends 96 Geo Prizm, and her vehicle had this light.

    ~alpha
  • fezzyfezzy Member Posts: 83
    Thanks for clarifying that gmc. I just wanted to make sure I didn't miss out on something. The way they were talking about is like every time you hit your brakes hard a light comes on.

    It also depends on the car the type of feel back you get... Some high end luxury cars don't give you the pulsating feel but you can hear the tires when they lock and are instantly released.
  • fezzyfezzy Member Posts: 83
    Thanks for that info. alpha...

    I was only aware of the ABS malfunction light, but not of the Active warning light.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    Employee discount in my opinion is a little silly but its something they had to do. Withstanding that their employees sort of get a raw deal now, customer will sense GM's weakness, however they will also get exposure of their cars and word could spread.

    Some people when they buy a car good deal or not, really that great or not, become attached to them. Also GM does have superb trucks, and some cars like the CTS , Saab 9-3 maybe even the cobalt can do the trick if you don't care that much about what kind of car you own.

    So even if they get off this employee discount it could work for them in the long run somehow.

    I also don't understand why people here are talking about the civic when this a mid size comparison thread.

    Something interesting for you Honda fans, it is believed the next new accord won't be out at least till early 2009. I don't know if thats true or not, but i certainly think that will not be good for honda at all.
  • gmctruckgmctruck Member Posts: 186
    "Can you show proof that there are car manufacteurs that are as reliable as Honda and Toyota."

    Yes.... look around and notice how many older Volvo's are still on the road. Many of them have well over 200k miles on the clock and are still going strong. Volvo's were sold in much lower numbers than Honda/Toyota of course, but they were reliable cars. Since Ford took over Volvo, I can't speak for the reliability of the newer models. My neighbor buys older Honda's and Toyota's all the time. For the most part, they are good solid cars, but he has spent a considerable amount of money on mechanical repairs and other issues.

    "So basically what i'm trying to say is when they take the employee discount offer off, a lot of people will not buy their cars."

    I agree.... not only that, but the cars will be worth even less at trade-in time and when the '06 models arrive over the next few months. GM and Ford are finding themselves in a situation that will be tough to overcome without major changes. Now with the union infighting going on, it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year or two at the big three US automakers.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    The same can be said about Honda and Toyotas. You see many old Toyota's and Honda's on the road. My friend has a 89' Accord still running well, and my friend has a 2 90' Corollas still running well.

    "I agree.... not only that, but the cars will be worth even less at trade-in time and when the '06 models arrive over the next few months. GM and Ford are finding themselves in a situation that will be tough to overcome without major changes. Now with the union infighting going on, it will be interesting to see what happens over the next year or two at the big three US automakers."

    I seriously dont know if they're going to get themselves out of this situation. Who knows maybe it will all turn out good, it will be real interesting to see how they will deal with this problem.
  • gmctruckgmctruck Member Posts: 186
    "So even if they get off this employee discount it could work for them in the long run somehow."

    I doubt it. The employee discounts are only a temporary fix for a major problem. Buyers will now expect the huge discounts or they won't buy. GM has cut production, so that might help in the long run, but it also means fewer cars being sold and less profit. I have been a loyal GM customer, but I won't buy another GM product at any price. GM refuses to stand behind what they sell by ignoring design flaws and quality defects. I could go on, but this isn't a GM related forum. :)
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    "Employee discount in my opinion is a little silly but its something they had to do. Withstanding that their employees sort of get a raw deal now, customer will sense GM's weakness, however they will also get exposure of their cars and word could spread"

    It's something they had to do? No, its not something they had to do they should have found a better marketing ploy to generate more sales. They should've looked at what the consequences are of putting an employee discount. Now customers know exactly how much they could get off a car, and they will wait till they will get that amount they want off their car. I think employee discount is a reflection of the trouble GM is currently in and what GM is doing now is to boost sales while in the long run this might backfire.

    Accord Coming out in early 2009? I highly doubt that. But i could be wrong, where did you say you read that?
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    "Also, why did you ignore my question about ABS?"

    Didn't ignore it as much as I overlooked it. Kind of hard to devote my full attention during times that I have a 15 month old getting into everything both in and out of sight .....

    To answer your question I can think of 2 times that my ABS activated. One time was done intentionally and the other time was when I had to brake rather hard to avoid a car that turned out in front of me. Fairly low considering the length of time I have been driving and the total miles I have driven. The ABS wasn't as much of a necessity to me as the SCAB. My son's safety is a priority to me and if I thought ESC would help my chances of protecting him I wouldn't buy a car without it. I feel that a strong safety cage and SAB along with SCAB are more important than ESC and ABS. Granted, that is my personal opinion but if you take a poll outside of the carnut centered Edmunds circa then you will see a lot of people don't care about ESC.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The point about stability control isn't to keep the car composed for people to like to take turns hard, especially in this class.

    It's about keeping the car from swerving out of control when you try to avoid something unforseen on the road suddenly, such as an animal, debris that fell out of another car, or another car. People overcompensate when this happens, and I've seen at least two instances where this has happened and the car spun out.

    The vast majority of side curtain airbags don't deploy in a car's lifetime. But when they do, it can save someone's life or disfigurement.

    Same thing with stability control. Chances are that you won't need it to come on (for the average driver), but when it does, it can save your life or other driver's lives.

    Side curtains can protect you when you get into an accident. Stability control can protect you from getting into one.

    "My son's safety is a priority to me and if I thought ESC would help my chances of protecting him I wouldn't buy a car without it."

    I'm not sure why you think it won't. Research, testing, and real world evidence has clearly shown that it is a worthwhile safety feature. Of course, it doesn't work 100% of the time. But it definitely increases your chances of keeping a car straight during an emergency manuver.

    I think it's only a matter of time that stability control becomes standard on all cars.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    "It's something they had to do? No, its not something they had to do they
    should have found a better marketing ploy to generate more sales."

    Like what? There is nothing like cutting prices that can boost sales almost
    instantly. It is a desperate measure (obviously) and demonstrates how GM
    and other American automakers are out of any viable alternative measure.

    GM really is not in a position to worry about long-term effects of price-cutting.
    They need to keep the sales up or their plants will begin to shut down (not
    that it's not already happening). Plus, they will run out of cash on hand (which
    is quite different from profits) if the sales continue to dive. With their junk bond
    status, they will run out of cash to pay for operating and marketing costs, let
    alone R&D.

    Given the situation, GM's priority is "staying afloat" until they can come up with
    better vehicles and scrap that ridiculous retirement package deals with its former/
    current employees.

    So, yeah, I think it's EXACTLY what they had to do.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Kia is introducing its follow-up to its Optima sedan in Korea (October)
    It will be another twin brother to a Hyundai model (as in Sonata) just like the
    Sportage/Tucsan combo.
    Obviously, nobody here dreams of owning a Kia, but if they can keep the
    quality as high as the Sonata, I think it can be an economic alternative to
    other mid-size sedans.
    I'm pretty sure that its power-train will be identical to Sonata's.
    Enough features in inexpensive packages to make even Hyundai blush? :blush:
    I'm expecting another Amanti-like design :P
    I hear that its Korean name will be Lotze. yuk.
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    ctalk said: what GM is doing now is to boost sales while in the long run this might backfire.

    truethat said: Given the situation, GM's priority is "staying afloat" until they can come up with better vehicles

    You're both right.
  • fezzyfezzy Member Posts: 83
    According to some financial data GM is still losing money even with the Employee Pricing.

    However, they implemented this to help clear out old inventory and make room for the 2006 models. As for the quality and reliability of GM products I can't speak on the products because I never care for there integrated systems. If I buy a car I want to be able to work on my on car and do my own customizing. I feel this way about Honda's also.

    Here is one thing that I did note about auto manufactures. The quality of there cars seems to be lower in the country or origin than in other countries. Is that because the cars are released in there home area first and than release in other countries months later. Thus given the manufacture time to realize mass production errors.

    But I am not downing any of GM products because Honda also has problems.
    Honda Recall

    This covers a long range of cars 2000 - 2003 and some 2004 models. This is longer than there warranty.">link title
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    anonymousposts- I wholly agree with jrock. I understand everything you say, and I agree- side curtains are a huge safety feature. My only point is that theres a bigger picture than just surviving an accident- theres also avoiding one, and the research has shown that you're far more statistically likely to avoid one in a vehicle with electronic stability control. Not AWD, not traction control, but ESC. You reference that its not a priority for many buyers, and that may be true- but the systems are only now starting to trickle down from the luxury masses, and I feel that as people become more educated on how/why it works, the take rate may change. Afterall, the accident you're most likely to survive is one you dont have in the first place. (Wasnt that someone's slogan for awhile?)

    ~alpha
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    GM really got their asses handed to them by the japanese :P.
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    is not on topic here ...

    Let's move on.
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    Accord and Camry have been leaders of this segment for decades and the Sonata is still new and is also considered as an inferior to the Accord and Camry.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Was that in response to someones post or are you just making a big 'ol blanket statement with no support?

    ~alpha
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I think we already discussed the topic about Accord and Camry being classleaders, earlier on. Page 16-17 i believe
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Might I suggest you read the following comparison test and rethink your blanket statement.

    Sonata vs Accord vs Camry comparison test by Edmunds

    :)
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    Honestly tenpin288. Do yu honestly think Sonata has a chance to catch up? I mean although they are selling well, do you honestly think it will overthrow the
    Accord and Camry? Think about it. I know you have a good argument and thats good. But sometimes you need to use common sense. This goes to Alpha guy too (if your reading it alpha)! :P
  • spinzerospinzero Member Posts: 91
    are you a troll?

    It seems to me like you are trying to mock anti-hyundai people by making some seriously dumb comments on their side.

    If so, well it's kind of fun, but I bet it'll get old real soon.
  • fezzyfezzy Member Posts: 83
    It doesn't take much but for the reliability and price to be right to take the lead sooner or later. Camry and Accord wasn't the leaders when they came into the US either. But time prevailed...

    Also, Hyundai was given a bad rep. in the early years because of its' partners Mitsubishi and Chrysler. Now Hyundai is producing more on their own and with more pride than before.

    Also, with the technological advances that Hyundai has made who would want to buy an over price Accord or Camry.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I posted this earlier-

    The Accord and Camry are still going to sell better. Toyota and Honda have been rulers of the mid-size segment for many years and have earned the trust of many customers. The Sonata is relatively new to this segment, and still needs to time establish itself as a classleader. A lot of people look past the price of the Accord and Camry because they want to buy quality car. Honda and Toyota have been making quality cars for years, and its paying off (in sales and repeated buyers)

    I'm not saying Hyundai doesn't make quality cars, they do, but it might take a while before they are up where Honda and Toyota are.
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    Haha funny...Very. n_n' Yes I am kind of bias against Hyundai lovers. Well but it is true dont you think? Honda and Toyota (although the prices are a bit high) have better quality and design than Hyundai (although the Elantra isnt that bad XD). But still, this is just my 2 cents. It will take many years for Hyundai to achieve what Honda and Toyota has accomplished so far. Afterall, as Ctalk has mentioned, "Sonata is relatively new compared to the Accord and Camry. I'm not saying they can't be at the top spot, but it will just take them many years and a whole lotta effort. :)
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    not going to turn into something personal, folks - stick to the cars.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    Do I honestly think so? Yes! Currently we own an 04 Sonata LX and an 05 Tucson LX AWD. Did we own a Hyundai before these? No. When it was time to replace my wife's car (97 Mercury Sable that was beat to death by our teenage son), we looked at all the mid-size family cars out there. We looked at Accords, Camrys, Optimas, Taurus/Sable, and others, and none of them could compare to the Sonata on price, features, ride/comfort, warranty, dealer service, etc. When I decided to replace my 01 PT Cruiser, I was looking for a small SUV. I looked at Honda, Toyota, Ford, etc, and again Hyundai came out on top. Based on these experiences and the experiences of a number of people in our area that are purchasing Hyundais, I firmly believe that Hyundai is becoming a major player and will be making a lot of news in the near future based on the new product they have now and in the pipeline. :shades:
  • spinzerospinzero Member Posts: 91
    I apologize if I offended you. I just wasn't sure if you were serious. You know how the internet is.

    Yeah, I agree things tend to not change. Which is why it's generally safe to be in a position that "common sense" holds everytime. You'll get more right than wrong that way. Duh.

    But sometimes, some things actually do change. I mean, otherwise where's the fun in life? And while it's hard to predict when that's gonna happen, I believe that there has been enough evidences to make a strong case that indeed this Korean company is changing drastically for better.

    I know many would disagree. If everyone agreed it would also be a "common sense." And there'll be no fun in buying or supporting Hyundai at this moment. It'll just be another safe boring choice. But it's not. And that's why some people on this board are so excited about this former manufacturer of Excel. :P
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I believe that there has been enough evidences to make a strong case that indeed this Korean company is changing drastically for better.
    Hyundai really did changed for the better, its amazing to see how it went from the Excel to the Sonata.
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    That's alright Spinzero. You didnt offend me :) . I do agree with you too. Life would suck if everything can be predicted. Many people would win the lottery too if they can predict what numbers will be chosen ;) ! Ha with that many Sonata (well Hyundai) fans, the sales will boom later. I would reckon that Sonata may be near the top spot but not number one as there are other car companies in this game, not just Hyundai.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I was reading your post, and realized that you mentioned the much better Sonata over the Accord, Camry, Optima etc... I am almost certain that the 2004 Optima and Sonata are nearly twins, aren't they? I was curious to know the qualities that swayed you towards the Hyundai over the Kia, because last I saw, they shared drivetrains, interiors (for the most part), trim levels, prices, and driving expereinces, as far as Car and Driver said. I drive an Accord, and am not going to fight in this battle, but wanted the know the diff. Thanks for your input, and to everyone for making such an interesting discussion. :)
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    Yo thegraduate, my discussion was about the Sonata and the Accord/camry. I am not against the Accord and Camry. :mad: . I respect the Camry and Accord. I was just replying to the previous disscusions. They were saying that the Sonata has better sales than Accord. I'm just trying to fight their opinion. I love the Accord and Camry.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Member Posts: 804
    You're right that they are almost twins, but they are different. They are both made in Korea, but in different factories. The trim, accessories, and designs are different enough that my wife preferred the look of the Sonata (so did I). Also, we were treated better by the Hyundai dealers we visited, which is surprising because the local Kia dealer is also the local Honda dealer. They just seemed to treat the Kia line as an afterthought and weren't willing to aggressively deal, so Sonata it was. And my wife is extremely happy with her Sonata. :)
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    When will Sonata catch up with Camcord?
    When will hell truely freeze over?
    5 years? 10 years?
    (I think this will better sum up how we assess the Korean company's progress
    and prospects individually)
  • gmctruckgmctruck Member Posts: 186
    We could sit here and debate "who's better" until the cows come home, but no one has a crystal ball. It all boils down to personal choice and people must make their own decisions.
    Only time will tell which automakers survive and which ones don't. The back and forth debate in this forum has become kind of ridiculous and of little value except for the sake of argument. :confuse:
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Couldn't agree more, the Accord, Camry, Sonata, 6, and Altima are all great choices.
  • slaphappyslaphappy Member Posts: 7
    Well I don't know when Hyundai will catch up, but I test drove the Accord sedan tonight and tomorrow I'm going back to the Hyundai dealer to re-test drive the Sonata....

    That was my first ever drive in an Accord and I was not impressed.....road noise was deafening and when I closed the door it sounded cheap....and this was the EX-V6 I drove.....I test drove the Sonata about a month ago (real early in my car shopping process) and was expecting the Accord to blow the Sonata away.....

    I have a strong feeling that I will be leaving the Hyundai dealer with an '06 Sonata tomorrow!!! ;)
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    exactly how i felt when i test drove the v6 accord. when closing the door the *thunk* was not there. camry was pretty much the same, but the 06 sonata and mazda 6 were the only cars that provided that *thunk* which perceives solidness of built

    To me this is all kind of funny, because Hyundai has put Honda and Toyota in very very uncomforble spot. The new hyundai which aimed pretty high and benchmarked cars they didn't have to but was necessary to them in the audi a6 and lexus es 300 have it made difficult for honda and toyota because now they would have to make their cars a inch closer to their own luxury division car, which could cause a inner war within the company.
    If honda aims to make their cars like acura, then that could hurt acura sales and same with the toyota. Also if done so, then acura cars have to take a step up as well, costing more money.

    The next couple of years should be interesting in the asian car industry
  • fezzyfezzy Member Posts: 83
    Trying to stay with in the guidelines but the link below contain the pics of the Sonata in Black.

    image

    http://www.moduta.com/bemarket/goods/5389_imgl6
  • witmanwitman Member Posts: 11
    I test drove a Sonata once. Funny thing was i tried to floor it and this loud roar (not like a Mustangs) appeared... I never heard something like that in my life before, Sounds like a Angry Bull Running Towards a Red Object :) . On the otherhand, an Accord is much better. Very Quiet. The "Thump Thing" is very subjective. Well, thats just your two cents... .but many would prefer the Accord...simply because of its look and that its more "luxurious" than the Sonata.

    (PS) Hyundai will never be up with the big two. I know many of you are going to say Hyundai is improving. But dont forgot Honda and Toyota are. Another thing hyundai lacks is honda's and toyota's bullet proof reputation. :lemon:

    Lets sum it up like what Truehat said: Will Hell ever freeze up?
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    gmctruck posted this earlier-

    "We could sit here and debate "who's better" until the cows come home, but no one has a crystal ball. It all boils down to personal choice and people must make their own decisions.
    Only time will tell which automakers survive and which ones don't. The back and forth debate in this forum has become kind of ridiculous and of little value except for the sake of argument."
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    more luxurious than the sonata? wow that is an interesting comment. i would like to hear how it is more luxurious

    Also nice pictures fezzy.
This discussion has been closed.