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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    And a big surprise! The all-new, $30k Camry edges the Accord and tops low-bucks Sonata and Fusion:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=109710/pageId=692- 76

    The best of class? Probably. Worth up to $9000 more to most of the people who will drive these family haulers? I dunno...
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    "I drove the Mazda6, and it handled better than the Sonata. But, my wife hated the harsh ride and noise. It's not a mom car. But on the bright side, the Sonata's engine is way smoother and quieter, and if anything, a little more powerful."

    Here you go again. The Mazda6 is a better driver's car than the Sonata, just admit it. A BMW 3 Series ride is just as harsh as the 6's. You try to bash the 6 in compariso nto the Sonata without giving credit to the fact THAT THEY ARE FOR TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUYERS. My goodness. I don't know about smoother, I actually like the 6's peppyness. And I will take the better driving dynmaics over the 14 more horses, it really isn't a big deal to me. Different cars for different buyers.

    As Edmund said in its family car comparison last year. The 6 is the only car in the bunch that they would find an excuse just to go drive.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Look at the comparo of the V6 Sedans and read the Fusion review. Keeping in mind that the Ford is based on the Mazda, look at what it says about driving dynamics.

    "With its taut chassis, confident steering and predictable handling, the Fusion exhibited a sophisticated-sporty nature that even the best handler of the group, the Honda Accord, lacked. In this regard, the Fusion excels in our group, but like a BMW, the trade-off is that this attribute takes it further away from what some might call a luxurious ride."

    That is what was said about the Fusion. Mazda takes the handling beyond that. The advantages to the Mazda over the Fusion are in exterior and interior styling and driving dynamic. To me, the Mazda is a better car. I can't wait to see the New Mazda6 when it comes out next year or so.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Look at the price differences folks in these sedans!! I cannot belive Edmunds feels a $5K difference is worth it for the Camry..?? or even a 3-4K difference is worth it for the Accord.. They claim resale advantage.. you pay more upfront, resale better be more.
    I find it funny how now the Fusion is slammed for items that Edmunds liked before. The new Camry took styling from the Mazda 6. Its all over the front grill area. As consumers realize they don't need to spend $$$ for a reliable, functional family sedan, articles like these are going to just go by the wayside. I just laugh.. $5K more to own a Toyota.. not me, no way, no how...
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    Just barely edged out the Accord.

    Have no time to read the comparison, but I agree that the Camry should come first. It should since it costs $9000 more. Although, it did come with navigation and a lot of luxury features which the Sonata and Fusion didn't have.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,624
    The thing is, it's not just $5-6k--because big rebates and incentives are available on the Sonata and Fusion/Milan. It's more like $9k, as I said.

    They were making a point about the Sonata's power steering being lost for a moment in the slalom. How often will that happen in real life? It's apparent that as a class, these cars are getting so good that the rankings are due to things that most buyers's won't notice or care about. Yes, the Camry and Accord are fine machines--for those willing and able to pay thousands more for the differences. I suppose we'll see the Accord jump back on top when the new one comes out next year--it only lost to the Camry by a fraction of a point, which is a very good showing for a four-year-old car.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Notice that Edmunds faulted the Fusion for not having navigation and satelite radio but not the Sonata. How does that work? How do they give credit to the Sonata for an aftermarket option? I could get a Ford Fusion to have nav and three tvs and a modified engine producing over 300 hp! Should that have an effect on a comparison of "stock" cars? And then also give credit to the Sonata for having satelite radio on the way and not the Fusion which will have many of the safety equipment it has as optional in 2006 as standard for 2007. Ford has also said satelite will be available soon on its models as I remember. COme on Edmunds. I am not making this stuff up, I have copied the parts of the article I am talking about.

    On the Sonata...
    One savvy Edmunds.com reader has found a way to add DVD/satellite navigation (see Consumer Commentary) to his Sonata, and we're also told by Hyundai that XM Satellite Radio is on its way, standard on all models by calendar-year 2007. All this equipment for such a reasonable price still drives the value of the Sonata way, way up.

    XM radio standard? Does that seem right?

    On the Fusion:
    Several of our test Fusion SEL's options were standard on the Accord EX, Sonata LX and Camry XLE, including ABS, traction control, airbag curtains and side-impact (thorax) airbags. Some of the cars feature content that isn't even available on the Fusion, like stability control, navigation and satellite radio.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Fact of the matter is, the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is just that. However, its the only set pricing available for use in comparison tests like this. For its $6 grand premium over the Sonata, there are quite a few big ticket features that the Camry has- Navigation, SmartKey, 440 Watt JBL.. to name a few.

    Eventually, the Camry will come down around invoice, and rebates will appear toward the end of the run, if the former generation is any indication.

    The Camry did indeed only eek out a win by mere fractions of a point, but the praise in the text flowed very freely from edmunds.com...

    "With the anticipation of parents watching their child win a spelling bee with the final letter, we watched the Camry's point total edge out the Accord's by a 0.64 margin. Despite what this might indicate, there really was no dispute regarding which of these four cars should win the comparison."

    That says a whole heck of a lot. As does

    "Every so often, an automaker produces something so extraordinary that it manages to not only eclipse its own predecessor, but also succeeds in making the competition appear obsolete."

    What surprised me most though, were the comments on the Camry's improved handling capabilities.

    I'm still not a big fan of edmunds.com comparison tests, what I'd really like to see is a re-match, plus a few more entrants... of the Dec 05 comparo in Car and Driver.

    ~alpha
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Let me refer back to my post #1774 which was made the day before the midsized comparo was published...

    Head of the class V6, styling ( admittedly subjective ) will attract a lot of new buyers, continued advancement in refinement, hybrid option all make the Camry the benchmark again in addition to the well known rep for quality and value.

    Nothing has been lost in this Gen6 .. much has been gained and Hyundai, Honda and Nissan still have to do more to keep up. Price isnt everything. If it was the CamCords would be sitting on lots with cobwebs on them.. they arent.

    Toyota moved the bar again. It's up to the others to catch up in ways other than just price


    The market will speak and prices will come down in good order as referenced by alpha01 but this will only make it even more difficult for the others to compete with this new Gen6.

    A few comments about pricing: For the proponents of pricing as the primary criteria for purchasing... what if... at some time soon the management of certain companies start saying 'Ok now we have established our good rep. Let's begin to cash in on it and stop giving Toyota & Honda gobs of free money. It's time we began to make big buck like the other two.'

    Nissan is normally just behind it's two compatriots
    Hyundai is 'leaving tons of money on the table' as the phrase goes.
    Ford has some issues it has to deal with concerning the engine and retesting with the IIHS before it can join the others.

    Hyundai has a state of the art new plant that may soon rival Georgetown and Marysville. In Ala. it's costs are very likely just the same as HonYota. Either,
    a) they are losing money hand over fist to establish the product line. Is it realistic to consider this to go on forever?
    b) they are making a nominal profit at the current giveaway prices which as noted are $5000 - $9000 lower than Toyota for example.

    The Koreans are very good business people. Did they build this huge beautiful new plant as a gesture of generosity to the people of AL and goodwill toward the American public so that they could give away cars and lose money? Very unlikely.

    Are they looking at the volumes of the CamCords ( each double the Sonata's ) and the ~$5000 each CamCord brings above the Sonata and say ' Why not us too? ' Very likely... soon too.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Did they build this huge beautiful new plant as a gesture of generosity to the people of AL and goodwill toward the American public so that they could give away cars and lose money? Very unlikely.

    I doubt it, but we Alabamians would certainly appreciate such a gesture! LOL
  • jhinscjhinsc Posts: 397
    Fact of the matter is, the Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price is just that. However, its the only set pricing available for use in comparison tests like this. For its $6 grand premium over the Sonata, there are quite a few big ticket features that the Camry has- Navigation, SmartKey, 440 Watt JBL.. to name a few.....

    There IS more to it than just price, ah haa! I've been thinking that the whole time. These 4 autos all compete for the same driver, what I call the "fat middle" of the market. So far, I would say the Sonata is probably stealing more sales away from GM and to some extent Ford (but now they have the Fusion to keep buyers in the fold) than it has from Honda or Toyota. Rightly so, the Sonata is a much better vehicle than anything GM puts out right now, and they compete in the same price class, with rebates and all. Honda and Toyota ARE a step up from the Fusion or Sonata, but the added upfront cost to acquire one is a major factor for many people.

    I think you can't go wrong with any of these, but time will tell when it's 3 - 5 years down the road when it comes to resale value. I'm not just talking about dollar value, but also how much each will be desired by the car driving public as a used car purchase. For me, I'm still taking a longer term view and will go for the sure thing (Honda/Toyota) until proven otherwise. :shades:
  • narenjinarenji Posts: 161
    no mazda6, no altima or maxima... i dont understand their evaluation criteria, and i dont understand why the aforementioned cars weren't included... they neatly skirted the issue. i read edmunds regularly, and it seems to be turning into motor trend... keep this up guys and i wont be reading your reviews anymore. the forums and things like vehicle values, incentives and other information keep this place alive, they shouldn't bother with reviews if they're going to be as crappy as this most recent one.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    that was the most stupid comparo ever by narenji Mar 27, 2006 (11:08 pm)
    no mazda6, no altima or maxima... i dont understand their evaluation criteria, and i dont understand why the aforementioned cars weren't included...


    Mazda 6 - too small
    Nissan Altima - about extinct, new model out in months
    Nissam Maxima - in a class w/Avalon, Azera, and Five Hundred, not CamCord, Fusion, Sonata
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Mazda 6 - too small
    Nissan Altima - about extinct, new model out in months


    Why is the Mazda too small for this comparison? We aren't talking feet, we are talking about a couple inches. The Mazda actually has more space in some dimensions. The Mazda is a niche player and not really in the upper ranks because as I just said, it is a niche player so that may be a reason to keep it out of the comparo.

    Now the Altima is a completely different subject. The Altima is being redesigned, but the Accord is also. Why include the Accord and not the Altima. Also in the last comparo between the Sonata, Camry, and Accord, the Altima was left out. Can you remember a car comparo when the Aaltima was included in recent months. Even car and driver left them out of the "Modern Day Heroes" comparo where they had the Jetta GTI, Speed6, TSX, and the Accord. If you're going to include the Accord, how do you not include the Altima?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    You're a bit off- theres a new Altima that will be available this fall. The new Accord will be the fall after that, as in... Fall 2007 as an '08 (unless Honda bumps up the schedule in response to the Camry and Altima redesigns.. don't forget, this Camry debuted 6 months ahead of Toyota's typical 5 year model cycle, with the 02 Camry debuting in August 01)...

    The Mazda 6 is dimensionally much smaller overall than any of the cars in this comparison test, though it is a vehicle I personally like very much- I'm enjoying my hatchback rental this week, Hertz was unable to provide the Fusion I requested....

    ~alpha
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    If you take a ponder into the editor evaluations of the recent Edmunds comparo somehting interesting comes up. THe Sonata and the Fusion fair very similarly.

    If you look at the ride category which has individual evaluations in Front Seat Comfort, Back Seat Comfort, Wind & Road Noise, and Rattles & Sqeaks, you see something alarming. The Sonata came in LAST in each category. The rattles and sqeaks thing really gets to me since I keep hearing about the incredible build quality.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Alpha, I still do not see how it being smaller puts it out of the competition. Put it in the competition and fault it for poor back leg space if anything. But to leave it out all together based on space? They didn't do that last year when the Mazda came in second to the Accord. Come on now, you know that isn't right.

    And I also don't see how relevant it is to not include the Altima becuase it will be redesigned. Didn't just a coupel months ago they compared the New Sonata to the Camry and Accord. In this instance you are talking baout half a year that will go by before the new Altima hits, they compared the old Cmary when the new one was basically being unvailed and would be out in a couple months.

    I say compare what you have because that is what wil lbe relevant to people buying the cars today and tomorrow.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Alpha, I still do not see how it being smaller puts it out of the competition. Put it in the competition and fault it for poor back leg space if anything. But to leave it out all together based on space?

    You know good and well if Mazda 6 had been in the comparo and lost out b/c of its small interior, Mazda-ees would be saying (if not necessarily you) that it wasn't fair because the Mazda is a niche player and shouldn't be forced to compete with the more "mainstream" cars that are larger inside.

    I didn't say I'D leave it out, just probably a reason that THEY did. I like the 6, personally.

    NOTE: Someone asked about the Altima being left out while the Accord is also due for a redesign...this isn't true. The Accord will be new for 2008, while Altimas will be out for 2007. 12 months is a long time.
  • kwonc71kwonc71 Posts: 245
    Just finish reading that funny comparo.

    YOU GET WHAT YOU PAID FOR??? Are they realize most of family can't afford $30,800 family sedan?

    Winner at over $30,000, and that was V6 FAMILY SEDAN COMPARISON? In where I live, I have to pay almost $34,000 after tax and L&D to get that Camry. Edmunds.com have to be more realistic about how much people will spend on Family Sedans. Y they did not also test smaller BMW and AUDI on that comparo while they test the car over $30,000?

    Both of editors Second Opinions also make me more wonder how Camry got 1st place.

    Senior Content Editor Erin Riches says:
    "But as excellent as these two sedans are, there's just no need to spend upward of $28,000 to get one. Both the Hyundai Sonata and Ford Fusion will get the job done for thousands less.
    Of these two, the cheaper Sonata would be my pick."

    Senior Road Test Editor Josh Jacquot says:
    "Bottom line? I'll take the $25,000 Hyundai with its more-than-adequate content and gets-the-job-done performance. Pile on its 100,000-mile powertrain and five-year roadside assistance warranties, and it's probably the smartest buy of the bunch."

    I paid $19,500 for my LX Sonata, and that makes about $11,000 price gap in real life. If Toyota throw their best $1,000 rebates, it will still be about $10,000 above Sonata.

    Obviously those two editors are retirees who has nothing to do with points.
This discussion has been closed.