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High-End European Luxury Sedans

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  • I'll bet you Dell doesn't drive a Lexus. No Buicks for a guy like him.

    Incidentally, this mornings WSJ had a big article beginning on page one of the second section on Jaguar's future plans. Seems they are still working on a strategy. Their immediate concern is to cut costs without hurting the value proposition. IMHO they seem to have a good line up, priced right, with some interesting variants (the R models, the AWD X type "Estate Wagon, etc.). Problem is the X Type is going away and nothing is selling. I think Jags marketing is invisible and/or inept.

    I talked with an MD today in his mid 60's who has owned them all: an S Series with the V12, the 911 C4 (awd), a raft of Bimmers, etc. You would think that he would be ready to settle into an XJ8 SuperV8. Nope, He has his eye on the Maserati coupe that is getting good reviews.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Wow, I missed that article in the WSJ somehow, I'll check it out in the morning, hopefully the janitors won't throw it out - but as luck would have it, this would be the first time in history, they will.

    No question in my mind, the marketing (or lack thereof) is a big part of the problem at Jaguar. I think they have a pretty good and consistent lineup as well. But nobody knows it, and the ads they do run, are stiff and ethereal. Somebody needs to tell the story about how reliable they are now, and how much engineering is in them. Because, people still think they have lucas electronics and stall at will and leak at every joint like they used to.
  • dfc3dfc3 Posts: 87
    That's true. Jaguar seems to be one of those brands that doesn't really advertise; in that the most prestigious brands generally don't need to. Yet... Jaguar had some serious problems a few year's back - and they've worked to correct them. Not sure how much the mainstream knows about the earlier problems though.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I think that's all the public knows....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I'm not sure where you all are, but here (Chicago area) Jaguar advertises all the time, especially for the S-Type. Most of the time during the evening and nightly news. They seem especially proud of their standings in the sales satifaction surveys by JDP.

    What Jaguar needs is two platforms. One for the S-Type, XJ and XK. This is pretty much a done done once the S-Type is redesigned because the XJ and new XK already share the same platform.

    Then, and I know this won't happen, Jaguar needs a new small rwd platform that could support a real rwd sports sedan (not the lame awd X-Type) and that stunning F-Type sports car they showed a few years ago. Mercedes and BMW do the same thing with the C/CLK/SLK and 3-Series/Z4 respectively. Ford isn't going to or doesn't have the money for this to happen.

    Jaguar is taking the exclusive, low-volume approach which may work, but they need the next S-Type to be a big hit because the XJ and XK can't save Jaguar alone.

    M
  • dfc3dfc3 Posts: 87
    Interesting. Must be a regional thing. Ironically I recently moved to the Chicago area from Maryland. With a name like "merc1", I should ask you your experience with the Mercedes dealers in the area. I'm seriously considering a new purchase soon.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I'm interested in the answer to this question too......
  • I think you are right on the need for an entry level 3 Series contender platform .

    From a business and marketing standpoint what would you think of a merger with Land Rover (I think someone even already suggested this.)? They already share some technology, same sort of customer and marketing focus. The combined company would need 50% less staff support types (Regional Managers, Trainers, etc.).
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Might work.
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I thought they had something similar to that already? I know Ford wants Land Rover/Jaguar/Aston-Martin under one roof wherever possible.

    I think something like that is exactly what Ford should do. These three are all British and nich makers so a leaner organization is exactly what they need, especially in field operations. As far as their products go, as they are right now they don't step on each other toes and it should stay that way. Land Rover doesn't need to develop a car and Jaguar should stick to cars. If Jaguar has to do a non-car product it should be a "crossover" not a true ruff-n-tumble SUV like a Land Rover. A Jaguar crossover should be a last-resort thing. What Jaguar needs a entry-level sports sedan that carries the brand's heritage with a BMW-grade rwd chassis. I know Ford and Jaguar are capable of this is the $$$ was there.

    I've always said that either Ford or VW has the best collection of high-end brands.

    Imagine a V12 Land Rover and a XJ12, using one of Aston-Martin's V12s! The recent gas crisis may kill those products though, but a V12 Land Rover would truly put the lights out on any other luxury SUV.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    No personal experience as far as buying goes, but like any other brand they have some bad apples here and there, according to relatives/friends I know with Mercedes.

    In the Chicago area I've heard nothing but good things about Fletcher Jones, Orland Park, Naperville, Luarel, and Motor Werks.

    I'd ask around on the "Prices Paid" board or the Mercedes specific topics to see how the after-sale service shapes up for various Chicagoland MB dealers.

    M
  • Jay-zus, a V12 Land Rover!! If the housing boom doesn't implode, this could become the next have-to-have car. Lots of people who bought the Bentley GT are ready to move on. They found out that two other dentists in the same neighborhood also pulled out home equity and bought them.
  • dfc3dfc3 Posts: 87
    Merc1,

    Appreciate the insights. You've had some good posts throughout - I've dug into some of them. Haven't bought an MB yet - I've been Volvo brand loyal for a while. But... my 2004 S60 may soon get replaced with a 2006 C-series.

    Motor Werks is probably the 2nd or 3rd closest to me. MB of Arlington Heights is the closest (formerly Mark Motors).

    I'll follow your suggestion.

    Regards,

    dfc3
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Well you might be right, and the V12 Land Rover Range Rover is or was in development, but they were having problems getting the V12 to fit.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    I've been to the old Mark Motors when it was a family owned thing, but I'm not sure if it still is since the name has changed. I remember one of the salesmen telling me that the "old man" was sick and his son was going to take over and that it was time for a change. Have they moved or are they still on Northwest Highway?

    The Motor Werks also has a new store in Hoffman Estates on Higgins right after Higgins crosses over Golf Road.

    Let us know what you do.

    M
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I like the idea of a V-12 Jag
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    Today's news is Porsche is buying 20 percent of VW. Maybe now they'll advertise the Phaeton.

    image
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Can't get my head around the W configuration of those engines. I've tried to figure them out, but can't. VW needs the capital injection for sure, but I don't think the Phaeton is ever going to work with a VW badge on it. For that money, it should be an Audi. It's like tryhing to get $80,000 for a Ford. Even a nice one. Not gonna happen. No matter how much you advertise it.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Phaeton is ever going to work with a VW badge on it. For that money, it should be an Audi. It's like tryhing to get $80,000 for a Ford. Even a nice one. Not gonna happen. No matter how much you advertise it.

    I absolutely agree and have always said that to a couple friends that always drool over the Phaeton....
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Today's news is Porsche is buying 20 percent of VW. Maybe now they'll advertise the Phaeton.

    I'm not surprised. They don't wany anyone to take over VW and end their partnership with them. That would be a huge blow to Porsche considering how the Cayenne pretty much got them through the lean times before the new 911 and Boxster arrived on the scene.

    Besides Porsche and VW have been linked by blood, if not officially, for years.

    M
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,621
    "It's like tryhing to get $80,000 for a Ford"

    Actually, they are getting around $180K for a Ford... Ford GT

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Actually, they are getting around $180K for a Ford... Ford GT

    But "how many cars" X $180k are they getting?..... Weren't they only making something like 20 of them?
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 28,621
    I don't know what the plans are.... but, I'm betting they sell more GTs than Phaetons..... ;)

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    So the universe shifts... This is the old view of the planets. What's going on with Lotus these days?

    image
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    This might help you visualize the W configuration of two V6s joined at the crankshaft. Notice the staggared pistons on Each bank. One row of 3 is 1/2 of one V6 and the other row is 1/2 of the Other V6.

    image
  • anthonypanthonyp Posts: 1,857
    That a good picture...One picture is worth a thousand words. Thanks I do wonder why it is so extra expensive? Tony
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    "Actually, they are getting around $180K for a Ford... Ford GT "

    Well, yeah, in about the same numbers as the Phaeton has been sold! But that's by design in Ford's case.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Thanks paldi. VERY helpful, and I had no clue, but now it makes sense. I'll bet rod length is interesting! I can't see how this would run smoothly, but I presume it does.
  • paldipaldi Posts: 210
    To understand this thing perfectly, may I direct you to this link?

    Understanding "W" Engines
  • Thanks for the global map. Are the circles representative of turnover or annual volume?

    The study of international relations (see the recent book about the Pentagon's new mental map of the world) teaches us that that those that trade together have growing, stable relationships. Whats with these unconnected companies like Peugeot, Honda, Lotus (which is really a consultancy), and Toyota? Don't they play well with others?
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