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Honda Civic Real World MPG

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  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Who is Wayne Gerdes ?

    Kip
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    ."at 20k miles/yr; $3/gal; the annual savings of 38mpg over 35 mpg is $135. at $2.50/g it's a whopping $112/year savings.
    I hope the scangage costs less than that. "


    I don't personally own a Scan Gauge or other such device yet, but have seriously considered getting one. Last time I checked , a few months ago, it seems they were in the $150 range. Using your numbers, it would pay for itself in about 1 1/2 years.

    To go a little farther: If we could save that $112 a year on every "Necessary" item, it could save a considerable amount of money in a years time. Consider:

    Automobile fuel, automobile fuel for the 2nd car, Health insurance, Life insurance, Car insurance, Groceries, Electricity, Heating oil/ natural gas, Income tax, eating out, movies, other entertainment, cable or dish, cell phone, telephone, internet connection, automotive maintenance, yard/lawn care, miscelanious purchases, home maintenance, clothing, and drug store items.

    Those are 22 items that quickly come to mind. At $112 each the savings would be $2464 yearly. Still not overwhelming, but considerable.

    As Ruking pointed out, different folks enjoy beating different systems. One person may enjoy shaving as many minutes as possible off commute times, while another enjoys using as little fuel as possible for the commute.

    I don't personally understand why anyone would buy an "Economy" car and not want to benefit as much economy out of it as possible. But that is me. Your mileage may vary! ;)

    Kip
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    link title

    The nexus is that Wayne Gerdes used to post here on www.edmunds.com. He is of the 59 mpg on a Honda Accord fame. ;) :shades:
  • kenlwkenlw Posts: 190
    Kip, if you want to have that as a hobby, go ahead and enjoy it, no one can criticize you. But if you insist it's a "investment", well, let's just say that you should keep it as an enjoyable hobby.

    And using your analogy, if each of those $112 /yr savings COST you $150, would you still do it? Technically, the analogy is a bit of a stretch to those of us who do return on investment calculations on a regular basis.

    As a hobby, it's great.

    Trust me, I was there in the 80s. My 81 GLC consistently got over 45 hwy mpg. It was fun to see how much I could squeeze out of it.

    But then I got another hobby I enjoyed more.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    >"And using your analogy, if each of those $112 /yr savings COST you $150, would you still do it? Technically, the analogy is a bit of a stretch to those of us who do return on investment calculations on a regular basis"

    To answer your question, yes I will gladly spend $150 once to save $112 each and every year. In 1.5 years the money is recovered and the savings go on year after year. Savings may even increase yearly if prices rise.

    I'm very interested to know how that is a "stretch". :)

    "But if you insist it's a "investment", well, let's just say that you should keep it as an enjoyable hobby."

    I have never been great at math. So need your help in understanding your logic.

    Thanks,
    Kip
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    "New tires will crash mpg anywhere from 1-6 mpg. I have new tires and alignment and swag I will lose 1-2 mpg (or from 38-42 mpg) , so the range will now be between 36-41 mpg for a while. "

    First tank full after the above quote, 38.5 mpg (354 miles/9.2 gal) . So I (still) swag (all things being equal) a new tire set loss of app 1.5 mpg ( getting app 40 mpg before tire set swap and alignment) . The first tank came almost dead in the middle of my original projection. We shall see what another 3 tank fulls will mike out to be.
  • That sounds like the loss is just the calculated MPG from the tire getting slightly larger. The actual MPG is probably very close to what you had before the new set of tires.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    On a practical level there is a portion yes...BUT mostly NO! The actual mileage was the one that was actually posted.

    So for example in no particular order and no particular % measurements( other than the gross mpg measure)

    1. yes the tires are larger aka (new) 10/32 vs (old) 3/32 or 7/32 MORE (could have run @ least 1/32 in more or 10,614 miles . :shades:
    2. (the past 2) alignments had no measurable effect on mpg. May it have affected these new tires?... maybe......
    3. the car on the old oem tires were run up to 90 mph
    4. in contrast, break in protocols were followed for the new rubber (NTE 60 mph for 300 miles, nte 65 mpg for another 200 (for 500 miles)
    5. no hard braking (we hardly use the brakes and do not brake hard normally except for emergencies- no emergencies)
    6. other than a 100 mile initial "bed in", test drive (less than 60 mph) the vehicle was put into the normal plain jane 2 person daily commute.
    7. I will do one deviation to get back on round numbers (aka 10,000 mile rotation intervals) and that is to rotate @ 5700 miles to get back on the 10,000 miles round numbers rotation.
    8. I do have the figures when the old oem tires were new, BUT I was totally into the engine (break in oil, etc.,) and suspension, brakes, etc., break in period. But do not have any idea (again) what %'s go to each factor.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    "That sounds like the loss is just the calculated MPG from the tire getting slightly larger. The actual MPG is probably very close to what you had before the new set of tires."

    I agree new thicker tread will affect "Calculated" mileage. How much is hard to say.

    The new and slightly larger diameter tire, due to new tread and sidewalls, will need to rotate fewer times to go a given distance. The odometer is reading something that is rotating.

    It doesn't see as many rotations with the new tires as with the old ones. Therefore it doesn't register as many miles with the new tires, although they went just as far.

    Another consideration would be the weight of the old vs new. Heavier tires/wheels are harder to turn and burn more fuel.

    So, "REAL WORLD" , is the odometer more accurate with old tires or new tires? :)

    Kip
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    The 2nd tank fill up micro'd out to 37 mpg. Again, it is within the predicted (loss-1/2 mpg) range. (38-42 range)

    ..."So, "REAL WORLD" , is the odometer more accurate with old tires or new tires?"...

    Given the last two tank fill ups, I would say the odometer is accurate with old tires and new tires! :lemon:

    I am no expert with weights and measures compliance, but I am sure one's local DMV web site will have something to say about the issue/topic.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    link title

    Above is a link to the gov fuel economy

    04 Honda Civic (7 vehicles)

    AVG: 32..4 mpg

    Range: 28-37 mpg
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    The survey linked in msg #1416 has way more of a population and better detail, even as most folks would tend to give greater credibility to a (dot). GOV web site. Far and away the majority (21.39% of 228/1066 sample) report between 27-30 mpg
  • kenlwkenlw Posts: 190
    7 vehicles?

    this is not in any way, shape or form a significant enough population from which to draw any conclusions whatsoever. The variance in the range alone is >30%, that is a red flag in anyone's book that the trial population is inadequate for anything other than to determine gross anomalies.
  • I bought my Civic 08 last september. I am getting 34 MPG..Is that ok?? Will it improve later??

    Thanks
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    According to the odometer, we have put on app 1000 miles on the Civic's "new" tires. Seeming the alignment shows no weird wear. We were able to keep the first 300 miles under 60 mph, and the second 200 miles under 65 mph. In my mind, we are cleared up to normal speeds. I will report the 3rd tank full mpg (so far 38.5, 37 mpg) . Two deviations from the original tires: 1. UTOQ ratings from 320 to 700. 2. R rating to T rating. The other drivers have notice NO differences but they are used to paying absolutely NO attention to these things. I like the way it feels. So now we have 73,300 miles to see if the new ones will last as long as the "old tires". The swag is at least 150,000 miles, but I'd be happy with 120,000 miles. ;) :shades: Hopefully by then newer latest and greatest tires will make its mark on www.tirerack.com. ;) :shades:
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    In the process of checking and writing about mpg after tire changing, I discovered that after 4 years and 7 mos, the passenger side windshield wiper blade needs changing due to the beginnings of a wiper blade tear. :lemon: ;)
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    There is not enough information to provide an educated SWAG. Specifically you need to put factors/variables into contexts. Shooting from the hip, maybe, albeit slightly.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    The figures are in and the 3rd tank full is @36 mpg.

    So as a range, new tires have crashed (mine) mpg 1.5 to 2 mpg per gal: old tires 38-40 mpg new tires 36-38.5. Again far from correlated but one anecdotal data point.

    Old tires: Dunlop SP20 FE, UTOQ 320, New tires: Toyo 800 Ultra.UTOQ 700. 74,300 miles is the number to beat!
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    Correction: the 3rd tank full was 37 mpg.

    So as a range (corrected) new tires have crashed (mine) mpg 1 to 1.5 mpg: old tires 38-40 mpg, new tires 37-38.5.
  • About a month ago I have bought a new Civic 08 coupe. It has 500 miles now and makes less than 21 mpg in city. I am trying to drive stingy, minimizing the break usage.

    Is this millage low enough to complain to the dealer? What may be the problem?
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    So while I would not discourage you from bringing your car in (especially) during the customer satisfaction (1 year /12,000 miles typical) warranty period; I would further swag the dealer will indicate nothing wrong with your vehicle. If you do decide to bring it in for that reason and/or other things, please post/repost.

    Honda Civics are (designed) optimized for a min of one hour operation, 45-75 mph situations. On the EXTREME up side, hypermilers can get in the high 50's mpg.

    Given your snapshot (21 mpg) and realistically without a lot of information, I would SWAG you operate in the worst city conditions (for a city environment) and are driving absolutely the HARDEST mileage for ANY car, but specifically a Honda Civic.

    So for example, if you look at the survey posted, MSG #1416 and the/YOUR new car sticker's SMALL PRINT (right under or near the posting for EPA City and Highway ratings) you will probably see that (21 mpg) is within the range, albeit a very low percentage of folks reporting that range of mpg. :lemon:

    If you do a tremendous amount of idling,stop/go was a hybrid one of the considerations? (i.e., Civic hybrid, Prius,)
  • ruking, thank you.

    Actually my driving is not strictly city, but include some free-way roads.

    I guess, the millage may improve after 1000 miles. Also I may try to use another gas station (I use Gulf with cheap gas).

    I'll let you know if talk to the dealer.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    Indeed it should somewhat. If nothing in the driver's behavior and/or conditions change, I would not reasonably expect much more than 1/2 mph more.
  • I recently purchased an 09 Civic EXL and have been getting less than 30 mpg average. I drive about 60/40 city/highway. I am very easy on the accelerator, and I do not leave the car idling, not using a/c either. The car has about 500 miles, will the fuel consumption improve? I used to get over 30mpg average in my old Saturn, I figured this car would be better...
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    While we have (from new) put down the mpg data ( 04 Civic), (baseline measures mainly- we did not endeavor to get what we actually got and documented) I would not even worry about till app 10,000 miles.

    Up untill then, you have SO much going on, i.e.:

    1. up to 500 miles @ less than 55 mph tire break in new tires can suck -1-4 mpg
    2. choice of whatever psi can make 1-2 mp difference
    3. proper engine break in (who really knows mpg)
    4. brake pads bed in (want oems to least INXS of 100,000 miles)
    5. component parts getting used to each other, suspension, transmission, etc.
    6. even stuff as mundane as getting used to driving the car: that some to all the variables might become moot at that mileage. This can make 1-6 mpg differences.
    7. non standard driving due to new pony rides ;) :shades:
    8. less/more than optimized conditions
    9. ETC., ETC.

    So as a anecdotal data point we started off getting a range of 36-38 mpg. Fast forward to currently: get between 38-42 mpg in a normal everyday 54 miles R/T commute (.75 to 1.5 hours) . I am also aware a LARGE majority of folks (94% or so) report getting less ! This commute seems to be what the Honda Civic was optimized for. We are currently in the 77,000 miles range. OCI's of 20,000 miles with Mobil One 5w20, 0w20 oil and 20,000 miles (per owners manual, shop manual, internet Honda recommendations ) oil filter changes. Oil consumption is between 1/4 to 1/2 quart of oil in 20,000 miles. We employ no real fuel miser techniques other than not getting in accidents in a rolling parking lot commute. ;) :shades: :lemon:
  • My '08 LX Sedan AT did improve after the first couple of tanks. My commute is much like Ruking about 60 miles each way and driving normally I was getting about 38MPG.
    One thing I just noticed is that my mileage just dipped as the weather here in the Boston area is dropping below freezing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    There are a few more winter variables.

    1. the winter blend of RUG gets less mpg,

    2. it takes longer to get up to sustained operating temperatures

    3. in a lot of cases, in effect do not stay at sot long enough, etc.

    3. in a lot of cases the engine doesnt reach ideal sustained temperatures

    4. it is a common habit to carry extra weight in various areas of the car, sand, extra winter tools

    5. winter tires, chains,

    6. longer sustained idling

    7. greater current draw affects mph (usually - minus)

    8. etc.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    But then on the other hand, we are back up to the range (38-42 mph) before the new tires and break in routine (normal commute traffic) . Filled @ 393 miles with 10.1 gal = 39 mpg (ok-38.911)
  • kenlwkenlw Posts: 190
    but also add that colder air is denser, so more oxygen, only somewhat countermeasured by intake sensors.

    bottomline: too many variables to identify a single causative factor.....

    btw, most areas do not distinguish between winter and normal blends anymore. it is the same year 'round.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 14,958
    Indeed, but it doesn't need to be that academic. After all, there is usually one reading despite WHATEVER variables there are = MPG (miles/gals) Since there are a lot of folks who do experience mild winters, i.e., certain parts of FL, CA., the winter season can range from not much to 10-25% hits to the mph readings.
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