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Hyundai Sonata vs. Honda Accord vs. Toyota Camry vs. Ford Fusion

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Comments

  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    These car companies know who buys the most cars, and it ain't in the 25 - 35 age bracket. They position to the 40-50 year olds.

    Do your research before throwing out your college paper online. These car companies do. They also know the 4 cyl will sell 4x as many as the 6 cyl. Again dashing your seat of the pants automobile marketing proposition.

    Ford has to bring the 4 cyl. out now - or the Fusion will be doomed to the average car pile. They're not in the game yet in this highly competitive sector (not a niche).
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    Time will tell if it will be #1, if ever. Lots of competition there with some mighty loyal buyers. The main problem Ford will have with the Fusion is that for about the same $ you can get the Mercury Milan. I configured the high end I-4 (because I want a stick) for both cars with the accessories I wanted and according to edmunds the sticker and invoice prices for the Milan was $26 and $285 more respectively and the TMV price was actually $445 less than the Fusion.

    With everything the Milan has over the Fusion why get the Fusion if the Milan costs practically the same?

    Ford either priced the Fusion to high or the Milan to low.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • Fusion/Milan same package different packaging. I too like the Milan but feels more of an emotional connection with the Fusion.
  • # 1 in in what? Recall?
    "Fusion is smack in the middle of a pimpout ride and a family sedan."

    What the ? This is hilarious! :D
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    While close they are not exactly the same package. It has been reported here that the Milan uses higher quality material inside, plus it comes with far more standard equipment. Also the sales lady at the local mercury dealer mentioned to me that the Milan has stronger doors than the Fusion.

    All that at the same price puts Milan on my list and drops the Fusion off.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • 1racefan1racefan Posts: 932
    "All that at the same price puts Milan on my list and drops the Fusion off."

    Like the hottie in the commercial says, "You gotta add Mercury to your list."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    I had a '95 Mystique. I refer to it as the Mystake. It was in the shop much of the first six months I owned it for various problems and recalls. But it did have good ride and handling--hmm, kind of like the Fusion. That was my first Ford. It will probably be my last Ford.
  • Has anyone posted this yet?

    Vehicles made by Hyundai Motor Co., Honda Motor Co., DaimlerChrysler AG and Subaru of America Inc. earned top honors in new crash tests of sport utility vehicles, minivans and sedans. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration gave five stars Monday in front and side-impact protection to the Hyundai Sonata sedan and Tucson SUV, Honda Odyssey minivan, Mercedes-Benz ML Class SUV and Subaru B9 Tribeca SUV.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/21/AR2005112100955.html

    Now can we all agree that the Sonata is as safe as anything else on the road? :)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The NHTSA tests are not the standard to by which you should judge vehicles. In fact the test are the easiest in the world. They even state that they have to redo their side impact test to conform more to real conditions.

    The IIHS tests are more difficult and in fact are more similar to those used in the rest of the world, including the inhouse testing done at MB, BMW, Toyota etc. Go to the IIHS website to see what the differences are.

    It doesnt mean that the vehicles are poor performers it's just that the NHTSA test doesnt measure real world conditions real well. The IIHS tests on the other hand have real world uses. It's on these tests that Allstate, GEICO, USAA etc base their premiums..not the NHSTA tests. The IIHS tests put more stress on the vehicles and the occupants inside.
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    To add to what kdhspyder said, NHTSA ratings only includes forces towards the thorax and pelvis even though head injuries cause the most deaths in real world side impact crashes. Also, like kdhspyder said The IIHS tests put more stress on the vehicles and the occupants inside. The barrier does not strike the dummies head, it is too short to actually stimulate a SUV/Pickup hitting the vehicle.

    I would wait for IIHS to come out with its results.
  • If a car gets subpar scores on the NHTSA crash tests, which according to others are "less stress" to the vehicles, what kind of logic do you follow in assuming that they would performm better in the more stringent and more "stressing" IIHS crash tests? If a sonata gets 5 stars for the NHTSA and the accord for example (i'm assuming... it didnt get 5 stars) gets 3 or 4 stars, using common sense if you place the same vehicles in a more stringent and stressing test I would expect the sonata to do better as well.
  • "Maybe in time Fusion and Sonata will enter the rental fleets"
    The Fusion has hit the rental fleets, on my way to work I pass an airport and I saw a truck load of Fusions being unloaded at one of the car rental agencey storage areas. I was really surprised to see this happen so soon.
  • I had many misgivings about the Fusion until I saw one. It is a beautiful car. No question about it! The car is well thought out and actually looks like something most of us would really like to drive.
    But if you don't believe in Ford, and trust me I understand what you all mean, you should check out the Lincoln Zephyr. It is one of the nicest luxury/sport cars i've seen in a long time.
    If you want to see a car that has lots of problems but gets nice reviews, go to the 2006 nissan altima discussion group. Lots and lots of problems with the Altimas.
    As far as quality goes, no question about it that Ford has finally made great strides. In fact the American cars get better quality ratings by far than the European manufacturers.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The Fusion/Milan twins are likely directed to two different segments. In two articles I've read the Milan seems to be aiming at the 30-something single professional woman who wants a sylish accessory in her garage. The Fusion may be more mass market to men and to families with small children.

    The problem is that the great handling and upscale look of the Fusion as a V6 misses more than 2 Million buyers every year ( including recent-Used purchases )
    The top 5 autos sold this year will all be essentially 4c.

    The Top vehicle sales in the US
    Thru Oct '05 2005 vs 2004 (,000's units)
    1
    2
    3 Camry .. 368K vs 361K
    4
    5 Accord .. 319K vs 325K
    6 Corolla .. 292K vs 282K
    7 Civic .... 258K vs 263K
    8
    9 Altima .. 221K vs 200K

    Taur/Sab (F/M ) .. 202K vs 254K
    Focus .............. 164K vs 181K
    Mustang ........... 139K vs 103K

    300 .................. 119K vs 87K

    Sonata ....... 95K vs 92K

    The market has evolved and is voting with their feet toward fuel-efficient, reliable utility vehicles for everyday driving.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    what kind of logic do you follow in assuming that they would performm better in the more stringent and more "stressing" IIHS crash tests?

    I dont think one can draw conclusions from the NHTSA test to the IIHS test. They are very different.. different speeds, different crash barriers, side tests are WAY different ( refer to each site ).

    My point only was that the NHTSA is of little value really other than to make a very broad judgement... say 'good' or 'bad'.

    Consider this possible scenario too since the NHTSA is a governmental agency with multiple constituencies.
    Vehicle A from super new Mich plant gets raves in the tests
    Vehicle B from soon to be refurbished Ohio plant gets OK

    Vehicle C from the oldline plant located in the district of Commerce Committee Chairman Henry Auto couldnt pass the test if the barrier was JELLO. Houston we have a problem.

    Governmental agencies have been known to be political.

    The IIHS constituents are the Insurance Companies which actually have to pay out money for damages, injuries and deaths. They better be accurate.

    I put more weight on the IIHS tests.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    First things first. Let's be nice people. Secondly, I'd advise people ro not open your mouth saying people don't know anything when you obviously know very little. Do my research? Who are you telling, maybe you should do yours.

    http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=21316

    I'll save you the trouble of reading it by just quoting:
    "The Fusion's target consumer is an industrious dreamer with an entrepreneurial spirit," said Dan Geiger, brand experience manager for JWT. "They are people from 25 to 39 years of age who may have 'taken a different road.' "

    Uh oh sounds like you don't know what you are talking about. And who said a 4-cylinder couldn't have good drving dynamics?

    Sorry if I was unkind in anyway but saying things like "Do your research before throwing out your college paper online" isn't nice either.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Okay now you just weren't reading what I wrote. As I clearly stated the Generation Y crowd is larger than any generation besides the Baby Boomers. Have you looked at the median age of your average baby boomer lately? No offense but they aren't getting any younger. The are moving on to more expensive cars and that market is dominated by die hard Camry fans that may recall bad experiences with early domestics. Why not go after the Gen Y people, 25-35 year olds?

    Who said only people who buy Toyota are 435+,... well Toyota did. It was in the reasoning behind why they made Scion. Your median age for your Camry buyer is in the late 40s.

    And you equate "niche" with small. Indeed a niche market can be very large, depending on how you have defined that niche. BMW caters to a niche too, and so does Lexus. And I did not pull that age target out of my a$$, I pulled it out of the mouth of the brand experience manager for JWT. The advertising group for the Fusion. :P
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    "They are people from 25 to 39 years of age who may have 'taken a different road.' "

    :surprise:

    Are they targetting let's say those who have chosen an 'alternate lifestyle'? Hmmm interesting turn of phrase there.
    ;)

    This if for certain though from that statement. They are not targetting the high volume center of the market.
  • driverdmdriverdm Posts: 505
    Right, they are targeting the future high volume center of the market where Toyota has openly admited that it does not have a hold on. Just think in two model years, the market they are targeting will be the highest volume of the market.

    Also I think when you say high volume, who mean highest volume because the 25-35 year old crowd are still a high volume segment. I forget how many millions of buyers are in that "niche".

    That alternative lifestyle comment was a good one though, I''ll give you that. :D
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Another high volume segment is high school and college kids. But they don't have the money to buy cars like the 40 somethings. Ford doesn't have time to muck around with positioning for an upcoming segment. They needed to go after the 49 somethings with something other than an Explorer/Expedition. Which is why I agree that they need to get a 4 cylinder automatic out quick.

    The 07 Camry is around the corner, the new Sonata is out, Honda is tough to beat again (and I'm sure they'll one up Camry when an 08 Accord comes out) and Ford seems uncommited to this segment.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Also I think when you say high volume, who mean highest volume because the 25-35 year old crowd are still a high volume segment. I forget how many millions of buyers are in that "niche".

    Yes in that 25-40 y.o. range. Your comments about age are accurate for this segment. But what's missing is how are these midsized vehicle being used.

    Here is the essence of it. People do not like to drive. It's an imposition on whatever else they have going on in their lives. If they are home with the family; if they are going to work in LA/NY/Beltway traffic; if they are going home from work in LA/NY/etc; if they have 2 small children in carseats with one on the way on the way to the folks 200 mi away; driving is a chore.

    I see this on a daily basis:
    'Just get me there safely and as inexpensively as possible. If one of the kids gets sick in the back eating a chocolate that has been in the seat cushions for 5 months I dont want to have to worry about the car's condition because we are going to run it into the ground anyway.'

    Unless this 25-35 Gen is a lot better off than previous Gens.. and they are not.. they want/need good basic transportation hence the move to more and more 4c. The Camry/Corolla/Altima numbers above continue to reflect this.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    I'm surprised at all the preference for 4 cyl engines. In the congested north east, where I live, the extra punch of a 6 cyl is often needed for getting into traffic or maintaining speed on hills. 6's seem much more popular here. But that's based on conditions where I am.

    4's do make sense where they supply adequate power for driving conditions since they get better gas milage. I had a new '71 Volvo, 4 cyl, 121 CID, 130 HP (back then almost unheard of to get more than 1 HP per CID). That car had plenty of guts and got 31 MPG at 80 MPH. I also had an '84 Chrysler 2.6L which was "OK" when new, but couldn't get out of its own stink after 8K miles.

    A lot also depends on the type of driving one does. Many short trips and 10K per year doesn't add to a big difference in gallons per year. Similary, 20K per year, mostly highway miles doesn't make much of a difference. It's the number of miles per year and the mix of local to highway miles that make a meaningful difference.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    I like the 4-cylinder because I don't see the need to put a sub-7 second 0-60 car into the hands of my teenaged drivers in the family (one now, two soon).
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    4 cylinders are cheaper, easy to maintain, easy to resell, and in the case of the Accord, the 4cyl had fantastic performance. I bought an 02 for my business and the diff between a 4 and 6 wasn't that noticeable. So I kept the money. Plus with another car in the family (an Odyssey),as most families, its OK to have an econocar in the mix.

    The car jumps great when you rev it to 4-5000 rpms - more than enough power to pass/merge even with 4 passengers.

    Lease expires soon. Looking at a TL, G35, and maybe a loaded 07 Camry - wouldn't rule out a Accord EXV6 Navi.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    I have had three Camrys, all with the four-cylinder, and they certainly have adequate horsepower for merging safely into traffic. I prefer the lower upfront cost plus the better gas mileage.

    And think of it another way: my '05 Camry has 160 hp (lowered to 154 using the new SAE methodology). My former '90 Mercury Sable 3.0 L V6 "Vulcan" had 140 hp. And going way back, my mother's former 350 cid (5.7L) V8-powered '73 Chevy Monte Carlo also had only 140 hp!
  • "One of Toyota's main problems is that young people simply refuse to buy them. By young I am not talking 18 year olds, I am talking the 25-35 year old crowd."

    This is your statement. Now give me a link or info that says 25-35 year old people dont buy Toyota. Just because some JWT people tell you that this is the Fusions target market doesnt mean that this age braket doesnt buy Toyota. Show me a link.
    Dont equate Ford Fusion with "niche" as in luxury. Ford is player in entry midsize sedan. Dont you remember Mazda 6? That's a "niche" brand for this market. You know their market share? Tiny. :P
    Do your research again. Keep on diggin, then maybe you might wanna go ahead and jump in there.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Almost all cars (not necessarily trucks) now pass the NHTSA frontal test with 4 or 5 stars, and there really isn't much significance between 4 vs. 5 stars.

    The IIHS frontal offset test is more demanding of structure than the NHTSA test, but even here, most vehicles now earn at least an Acceptable rating and most are Good.

    The NHTSA side test is a joke, as pointed out above, because the impacting barrier isn't high enough to strike the dummies' heads. And the star ratings don't take into account forces on the head.

    The IIHS side test is much more stringent. I'll predict the Sonata, at least, won't do as well as the 2004-06 Camry and 2004-06 Accord with side airbags.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    4Four 4c Camry's since '90. The first two I drove all over the Northeast Corridor from Boston to Balt and in and out of NYC for 6 yrs. @ 40-50K mi/yr. No problems ever. The last two have been here in the Mid Atl region with a lot less stress and much less traffic... also @ 45K mi /yr.

    I havent even had your new 2.4L yet.

    Ahhh but the HSD 2.4L next July will be something special.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The NHTSA side test is a joke, as pointed out above, because the impacting barrier isn't high enough to strike the dummies' heads. And the star ratings don't take into account forces on the head.

    The IIHS side test is much more stringent. I'll predict the Sonata, at least, won't do as well as the 2004-06 Camry and 2004-06 Accord with side airbags.


    By coincidence I was on the IIHS website tonight ( www.iihs.org ) looking at the new minivan ratings posted last week with the article that goes along with the ratings.

    In the minivan article it clearly shows and explains how the two tests differ. It's why the NHTSA has stated that they have to change their testing procedures.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    "The Fusion's target consumer is an industrious dreamer with an entrepreneurial spirit," said Dan Geiger, brand experience manager for JWT. "They are people from 25 to 39 years of age who may have 'taken a different road.' "

    As was noted previously, Ford had better hit a home run with the Fusion, meaning high-volume sales. The company is in a world of hurt, not as bad as GM, but not much better either.

    The Milan has stronger doors than the Fusion? Geesh, those salespeople will say anything to close a deal!

    The 3 cars, Fusion, Milan, and Zephyr, are identical structurally.
This discussion has been closed.