What about the future of Ford Inc??

2zmax

You are correct. Ford has lost another one this weekend.
This weekend my Mom needed a new car to replace her 96 Cougar that had engine and tranny problems @ 77 K miles.
My Pops and Mom went to car shop - I consider them as less than car savvy. So what did they Buy? - 06 Corolla LE, and Why ?? Because it was the same price as the Ford Focus, but it is twice as nice. I helped them negotiate and test drove both cars - Corolla is much nicer than Focus, even though it did not have the same amount of power - which is not a big deal for my Mom - it did have more space and better fit and finish. Not to mention reliability stats and the resale value.
Fords have no resale value.

nippononly

when will the Fusion actually be on lots to take a look at? Anybody know? Is it already out there?

carguy58

was only trying to show that there is a common perception, that Ford is not a good quality manufacturer. Even if you had only great experiences with Fords, it does not make them Great! You should not try to personally attack everyone whose opinion differs from yours. As for your claims that Ford makes good cars - I have no argument against it. However that said, after asking my fellow employees and my relatives and my friends - MOST of them (99%) said that they would not consider Ford as a new car purchase. Most all of them had a couple of bad Fords in their stables once. Even thought that was 5-10 years ago, the bad experience might last a lifetime. I like the new Mustang and the new Explorer - would I buy one? - Not unless they come with a 4/50,000 warranty like Mazda does. I don't have lots of faith in a company whose products have been consistently rated "below average" by CR and JD Power."

In the latest Jd Powers survey for 3 year old cars from 2002-2005 Ford finished above the industry average in reliability so they were not below average in JD. In Consumer Reports 04 in 5 year reliability from 1999 Ford finished above the industry average in reliability. CR said the average car company had 79 per problems per 100 vehicles. Ford finished with 75 problems per 100 cars. By Comparison the average Mazda finshed with 54 problems per 100 cars, Honda at 53 problems per 100 cars, Nissan 46 problems per 100 cars, and Toyota 35 problems per 100 cars. Meanwhile Chrysler scored at 88 problems per 100 cars and Chevy scored at 92 problems per 100 cars and Pontiac scored at 99 problems per 100 cars. Volkswagon and Oldsmobile were the worst at 108 and 139 problems per 100 cars respectively. Caddy finished at 82 problems per 100 cars just under the industry average of 79 problems per 100 cars from 5 year old cars surveyed by CR from 1999-2004.

carguy58

"Nv wouldn't you agree that when most Japanese cars get to a certain age they begin to look tired and have issues? Every Toyota my dad had (3 of them) was pretty much worn-out by the time they were nine years old."

Once a car hits its 10th birthday no matter what make it is its pretty much used up.

"On the other hand, if you meticulously maintain a Euro product (i.e. BMW, Volvo) they will still look good even when they are 10+ years old."

Volvo's and BMWs are more expensive to buy than Toyota's at a dealership. Also I'm sure European Cars the parts cost more than a part to get for a Toyota. I;m sure Toyota's are much easier to work on than a BMW and Volvo. I;m not the biggest Toyota fan out there but they probably cost less to own than a European Car.

carguy58

"Unfortunately, with the upcoming termination of the Lincoln LS, the fumbled Focus launch, the Maurader fiasco and the failure to sufficiently update the styling of the Panther cars, Ford is becoming identified with blown opportunities and half-hearted measures... "

I'm with you on the Lincoln LS and not updating it and the Focus's reliability problems. The Maruader come on looked like a car exterior styled for the 80's and it came out what in 2001 or 2002? The car did not look like an 00's design at all. BTW, what do you mean by Panther cars?

tom71

Speaking of the Ford "Fusion". The car seems promising for Ford.
I hope they get it right the first time and don't have a few years of
problems and recalls like the Focus!

andre1969

Nippon,

Grbeck and I saw a Fusion at a Ford dealer a couple weeks ago in Pennsylvania. It was the only one on the lot, though. Nice looking car. I definitely want to check them out once they're more plentiful.

carguy58

"As far as Chrysler is concerned - read all the problems people are having with the 300."

A guy who relieves me at night at my job was telling me his friend works for Chrysler and his friend told him the 300's and 300M's alot of them come back to the dealership with problems.

"I'd take G35 over a 300 any day."

In all fairness the G35 had problems with brakes in its first year but I;m sure that was a first year bug more than anything else.

"Ford, GM, Chrysler are still behind in built quality and reliability IMO."

Again the problem with Ford and Chrysler is first year problems and alot of them with their cars. It takes them two years(which means to long of a period of time) into a model cycle to work out problems with new models. With GM the Impala actually looks like a decent looking car. I just don;t see anything GM offers over the Japanese Competition. add into the fact GM sells a pile of cars to rental fleets and the empoloyee pricing. I think everytime GM runs a discount special it might up their sales but in the long run it lowers the perception of their brand among the buying public as they are a company that sells on price and price alone.

jefferyg

I've read quite a number of the posts in this thread this afternoon. Frankly, I'd probably not buy a new Ford car right now if I was shopping. I would have to agree with many of the assessments many of you have made regarding many Ford cars. Styling is a bit bland (500 for instance), and some of the engines are weak.

But as far as reliability is concerned - I've owned four Ford pickups - two F-150's and two Rangers, and as compared with other vehicles I've had experience with they've all been virtually trouble-free. The '96 Ranger I'm currently driving has almost 240,000 miles on it and I wouldn't be afraid to strike out anywhere in it.

I think what Ford needs to do is to apply the same forward thinking to their cars that they've given to their trucks and SUV's. While gas prices may mean the end of all full-sized SUVs such as the Expedition, the new F-150 has been a big hit. Explorer is still the best-selling SUV and the redesigned 2006 will keep it #1. The Escape is IMO one of the better-looking compact SUVs and it is competitively priced. The Sport Trac has it's own niche and the new 390 hp version will sell. And even with the introduction of the Duramax Diesel in the Chevy HDs I still see more new F-250s and 350s on the road. All Ford needs to do is introduce a slightly larger crew-cab Ranger with a few more ponies and they would have a near perfect line-up of trucks.

nvbanker

"My mom has a 2000 Taurus...she is very displeased that it is virtually worthless in the market, and will likely replace it with a Camcord or Avalon."

Well, we both know, fintail, that a large portion of that issue is that it's 6 years old, Ford has dumped millions of them into the market via rental fleets, and the car's been design-neglected for some time now. If she was looking for great resale, she bought the wrong car. But a 2000 Camry would have cost her more in the beginning.

nvbanker

The attack was the Fix or Repair Daily cliche - it's just disingenuous, and the subsequent posts from everyone support that. Do you also say, "Fix it again, Tony" for FIAT? Or "Grease Mechanic's Companion" for GMC? I'm saying that every Ford is not bad, and if they were, how on earth would they continue to be so popular decade after decade??? You'd think people would learn, wouldn't you?

As to replacing my Navigator, that is a function of gas prices only. I love the Navigator, it's my second one. But looking ahead, one SUV in the family is enough. Lincoln doesn't make a great sedan these days, and I don't buy Ford products only, there are other great cars out there as well.

The Asians make the best cars from a cost to own point of view - they're not always exciting, in fact rarely are. Ford, IMO, makes the best domestic cars. Oh, they have put out a clinker or two, but for the money, generally they are high tech, well engineered, and reliable. At least that's how I see it.

nippononly

the Panther cars are the Crown Vic and Grand Marquis, based on the ages-old Panther platform that Ford should update but keep RWD, as the market for large cars seems to be moving back to RWD.

2zmax

"The Asians make the best cars from a cost to own point of view - they're not always exciting, in fact rarely are. Ford, IMO, makes the best domestic cars"

What about:
Altima 3.5 SE, or the 350Z, or G35 coupe and sedan, or Infinity M45, or Lexus 350? Or Subaru WRX, or Legacy GT, Mitsu Evo, Should I go on?
Still saying that the Asians don’t produce any exciting cars??? Maybe the next 450 HP AWD Skyline GTR will be close Huh?
Wow, you're really reaching here

fintail

I think she's unhappy because her earlier Tauri held better value, and this car has been imperfect (something about the struts, and an intake or exhaust manifold - I can't recall). She wasn't happy with what I told her it was worth - maybe 4-5 grand tops, and it's a cosmetically nice 40K mile car. She bought it because it has a column shift and a bench seat - she greatly prefers that setup. She originally wanted an Avalon when she bought it, but didn't want to spend close to 30 grand, and something like a CV is too old ladyish for her. She did get the Taurus cheap. She's been thinking of a newer car since I bought one, but I've told her to drive the Taurus until something catastrophic goes wrong. She's not really a car person, it's good enough for her. Then she can try to find another column shift car - good luck.

varmint

That could be a big part of the problem, though.

I agree that Ford trucks are hugely successful. The new F-150 in particular. Escape you mentioned kinda shows the double-edged sword for them, though. It's a great little truck. It has won many accolades and sales. But it also had recall after recall when first released. That image stuck with the little trucklet for many years as other quality issues cropped up.

Anyway, one of the biggest reasons why Ford has done so well in the market is because they've been competing with a handful of manufacturers. Until recently, the F-150 has had to beat 3 major competitors (GM, Dodge, and Toyota). Even then Toyota has been playing on the fringes of the market. And profits for these rigs have been very high. Trucks are cheap to produce.

Ford now has to face Nissan and soon a redesigned Toyota, which promises to be more of a mainstream truck. At the same time, profits on big trucks are dropping. Gas prices and incentives are driving profits down and fleet sales don't provide much scratch. That's not a good combination.

If Ford is going to succeed with trucks, I think it will be through the effective use of Ford's truck reputation. Ford has a strong rep in big trucks. They need to capitalize on that image and produce new vehicles which harken to that ideal, but meet the public needs. Something like the next Explorer Sport Trac is a good idea.

jefferyg

True, Nissan is a real competitor. Toyo has a lot to prove in the truck market. My brother sells cars in Memphis, TN and he says that the Tundra has one of the worst resale values of all the trucks they see traded in (sorry Edmunds).

The big three should definitely take some pointers from Nissan on the cargo management system and some other details from Nissan. However, Nissan has some really bad issues with gas mileage. I live in Mississippi where they are produced and a lot of them have been sold here. I've not heard of anyone who is getting 20 mpg. The F-150 with the 4.6 will get 21 on the highway and the chevy's do even better. The Titan is also quite expensive as compared with other trucks.

varmint

Oh sure, the competition is inferior in a number of ways. My point was simply that there was no real competition before. Even a not-so-efficient Titan is able to steal 100K sales. With them introducing new features, like that cargo management system, Ford will have to spend money to respond.

The introduction of more mid-size trucks, like the Dakota, Frontier, and Tacoma will also squeeze the market just a bit. You can't sell a one-size-fits-all truck anymore. That too will cut into profitability.

grbeck

During the late 1970s, when GM used letter names (X-Car, J-Car, etc.) for its platforms, Ford used animal names.

The Panther cars, which debuted for the 1979 model year, were the Ford LTD and Mercury Marquis, followed by the Lincoln Continental and Continental Mark VI for 1980. A heavily modified Panther platform is still used for the Ford Crown Victoria, Mercury Grand Marquis and Lincoln Town Car.

The Fox platform debuted for the 1979 model year as the Ford Mustang and Mercury Capri, and ran all the way until the 2004 model year in heavily modified form as the Mustang. The Fox-based Mercury Capri bit the dust after 1986.

As for the Fusion - I've seen one on the road. It was a tungsten silver SEL model. The front looks very sharp, as does the side profile. The taillights are a little too generic for the rest of the design. Each local Ford dealer has at least two Fusions, although I still haven't seen a Zephyr at the local Lincoln Mercury dealer.

nippononly

the Zephyr comment caused me to pause and wonder where the Lincoln dealer is around here, so I looked it up, and the answer is: it isn't. There is no L-M dealer in my county. I have a serious drive if I ever want to buy a Lincoln or a Mercury. Which I can't imagine ever wanting to do, so that is just fine.

I am going to stop by and take a look at the Fusion up close and personal. It is definitely the nicest looking of the Fords right now, judging by the pics I have seen.

stickguy

I saw one at a dealer. Looks similar to the Milan, but different enough that you won't get them confused. The interior (dash particularly) looks like it came right out of a Navigator.

john_324

So then is the Ford panther platform officially the oldest platform used in the automotive business today?

I take a bit of perverse pleasure in the fact that my 2002 Mustang contains little bits of "unintentional retro" like having a 20+ year old chassis and a pull-out headlight switch (to say nothing of the car's handling characteristics... )

nvbanker

Yes, indeed, I also noticed the interior dash resembling my Navigator too. I liked the look, but the Cowl sits WAY to high. You can't see anything out of that car. For that reason alone, I wouldn't buy it.

varmint

Uh oh... A car for older folks with a high cowl? Given how many I've seen driving while looking out from under the top of the wheel, that can't be good.

nvbanker

Exactly! They'll have to sight between the steering wheel and the dash on this one.... I'm 6 ft. tall, and felt like I had to peer over the cowl. :mad:

chuck1959

Who said this car is for the "older" crowd? Geez! Just because it's a Lincoln that doesn't mean it for the older crowd. IMO the older crowd come to Lincoln for the Town Car.

nvbanker

Ok, granted, this one isn't for the older crowd - but nonetheless, that cowl is really high and in your way.

nippononly

shop Lincoln? I think the initial poster was right, it WILL mostly be the older crowd. Lincoln is the Buick of the Ford world.

nvbanker

"Lincoln is the Buick of the Ford world." How sad is that?

If true, what is Lexus these days?

fintail

Lexus is the Buick of Toyota with the ES, the BMW of Toyota with the IS and GS, and the Mercedes of Toyota with the LS and maybe SC

chuck1959

I don't believe Lincoln is the "Buick" of the Ford world. I meant the "older" crowd won't be interested in that particular car. All they really want is the Town Car. ALL of Buicks cars are gear toward the "older" crowd.

nippononly

sounds like basically the same thing. Lincoln doesn't have a whole lot of car sales. Perhaps the Zephyr will be different, but I can't see the young going for it in droves. In the case of the Mark LT, it remains to be seen who if ANYONE is buying it.

nv: yeah, I would say Lexus is reaching to be the Mercedes of the Toyota world. It has no GM equivalent. Despite being FWD, the ES is not particularly Buicky. Lexus is the art of the transportation appliance honed to a startlingly fine point, with just a dash of sport in some of the models. (and yes, I am damning with faint praise, although I do appreciate that at least one car company is making solid, well-built, reliable cars with very few quality issues in this age of the disposable car, even if that company's cars start at $35K).

chuck1959

No no no. I was meaning all the Buicks not Lincoln. I was figuring the yougsters being interested in the Navigators, LS and so on. Leaving the Town Car as the old stand by for the older set, who have driven them for years.

nvbanker

Ah! I get it - the Maytag of Automobilia.......

chuck1959

LOL Yes!

nippononly

I don't know about youngsters being attracted to the LS. Certainly, the age of the buyers of that model initially were younger than the brand's average, but sales are just a trickle now, so whatever age they are is kinda less relevant.

As for the Navigator, that is a pretty expensive ride. I don't know that the young, or even the "moderately old", have the coin. It is mainly for the comfortably older set. And really, the young that do have the money seem to be buying the Escalade in droves, not the Navigator, even though the Navigator outsells the 'Sclade, I believe. And now of course, the latest thing for the rappers, basketball stars, and nouveau riche under 40 is apparently the Mercedes G500.

nvbanker

The problem with the Town Car is - it has been significantly downgraded since 1997, arguably the high water mark for Town Cars, with generic plain interiors, and the same horsepower as the Chevy Impala (the old one). The car is no longer designed for retail sales, and while tough as nails, it's not a luxury car anymore, barely making it as Near - Luxury these days. Believe me, I know, my best friend had a 94, a 96, and a 00. The 00 he bought on faith, having loved the prior two for their -0- defects and performance as well as unsurpassed luxury for the price. But the 00 was not the same car, and he abandoned them at that point. Each year, I check them out carefully, to see if they're repented yet and come back to their audience before it's entirely too late - but alas, they haven't.

nvbanker

" And now of course, the latest thing for the rappers, basketball stars, and nouveau riche under 40 is apparently the Mercedes G500."

Proving, it never had anything to do with the actual product - it's all about how expensive it can be.

nippononly

Besides, I looked it up, and the Escalade is outselling the Navigator this year. ;-)

Price may have been the thing, but really, for the younger set it often comes down to how much bling it has. How much does it show off the wealth? The G and especially the Escalade do this well, while the Navigator is more conservative.

varmint

Lexus is the car of trophy wives. I think it says something about that in the manual.

No, the Zephyr isn't an old person's car, but it is being sold under an older person's marque.

chuck1959

I have to admit you make a good point. But a 70+ owner will not care to much about that. Also IMO the LS never really hit it's target audience. Unless Lincoln does something drastic ie: an exciting model, that attracts both the younger and older crowd....I know what a takk order....they could be in trouble sooner.

chuck1959

No, the Zephyr isn't an old person's car, but it is being sold under an older person's marque.

See your statement is exactally what's wrong with Lincoln's image...older persons marque. That's going to be very hard to change.

chuck1959

Besides, I looked it up, and the Escalade is outselling the Navigator this year.

That is something I never understood, because I think the Escalade is BUTT UGLY!! Lincoln needs to pay attention and build a Navigator that's like the Escalade EXT!!

ehaase

"The Fox platform debuted for the 1979 model year as the Ford Mustang and Mercury Capri"

Actually the Fox platform debuted for the 1978 model year as Ford Fairmont and Mercury Zephyr. Derivatives include the 1979 Mustang/Capri, 1980 Thunderbird/Cougar XR7 (redesigned in 1983 and restyled in 1987, but still on the Fox platform), 1981 Granada/Cougar, 1982 Continental, 1983 small LTD/Cougar, and 1984 Lincoln Mark VII. Ford used to be quite good at getting a lot of derivatives off a platform, and based upon what I have read about plans for the CD3 (Fusion/Milan/Zephyr) and D2 (Five Hundred/Freestyle/Montego), Ford will develop many derivatives of these platforms.

grbeck

Oops! You're correct...I completely forgot about the 1978 Ford Fairmont and Mercury Zephyr.

I always thought that the Fairmont Futura and Zephyr Z-7 were good-looking cars for their time. The size was just right - not too big, not too small - and the interior made efficient use of the available space.

Kind of sad to think that in 1978, someone buying a compact Ford had the choice of two- and four-door sedans, a very nice four-door wagon, and a highly styled (for the time) coupe. Now we have to settle for one four-door sedan - the Fusion.

grbeck

john_324: So then is the Ford panther platform officially the oldest platform used in the automotive business today?

It may very well be the oldest platform in use, although it has been heavily modified from its original form.

grbeck

chuck1959: Unless Lincoln does something drastic ie: an exciting model, that attracts both the younger and older crowd....I know what a takk order....they could be in trouble sooner.

Lincoln is already in deep trouble. The LS is going away, and the Zephyr, while not a bad car, does not strike me as something that will lure away buyers from the Acura TSX and TL and cheaper Lexus models. Lincoln needs a blockbuster on the order of the Chrysler 300C.

nvbanker

"So then is the Ford panther platform officially the oldest platform used in the automotive business today?"

The Panther of today is decended from the 1979 platform, yes. But the one being stamped out today is fully updated, stiffened about 100 times now, and is better x 10 than the original, yet, has essentially the same design as the original. I don't see any shame in riding on a platform that was "originally" designed 27 years ago - it's not like it was MADE 27 years ago......

nvbanker

Image wise, the 300 was a blockbuster, with the genius HEMI engine, but doesn't the Ford 500 now outsell the 300, grbeck?

grbeck

I believe it does, but with a lower price point (the most expensive Five Hundred I've seen - the Limited AWD - stickers for about $32,000, which is still below the 300C version) and a bigger dealer network, shouldn't it?

nvbanker

Chrysler dumped a couple million of the 2.7L 300s into rental fleets so far - Ford has put very few, comparitively, 500s into fleets thus far, leaving the Taurus to do that for now. It's hard to guage it unless we could take fleet sales out.