How Much Profit Should A Car Dealer Make?

abraindrainer

I think that customers' beef is with lying when salepeople say "our cost is invoice" because it is NOT. :mad: That is why all other kickbacks come into play and that is why consumers go after those amounts. The fact that commisions are typically not based on those kickback is an issue for dealer management and NOT consumers. Granted, the person on the floor is squeezed between the dealership and consumers. However, I do not hear any complaints about management behind the glass that tries to make most of the rules.

I could not agree MORE with some of the other consumer side posts just above mine... What offends me, personally, the most is when I am treated like a total idiot when I even email but particularly when I walk-up. I have tried a few things: disclose nothing and everything but the treatement I get is basically the same. Driving up in a decent newer vehicle or a 15 year old off-roader gets equally bad treatement. Either way, I feel like someone is trying to "vacuum the cash" right out of my pocket. Online, I feel safer because I get to CONTROL every bit of information that I release.

Like in the rest of one's life: "Information is to be disclosed on a need-to-know basis, and most people just do not NEED to know". In truth, information disclosure is probably highly advantageous to both parties but if one is to abuse it, the pain to the opponent will be severe! WRT dealers, I choose to avoid pain, because there is zero honesty and disclosure with the majority of them.

thenebean

but invoice is the cost. when the mfgr sends us the car, and charges us, its what invoice is. done. so we get holdback afterwards, and there may be incentives to move a certain model, etc. but we dont get those now, and we may not ever get them. and with holdback, if that particular car doesn't sell anytime soon, that holdback is eaten away by the finance charges (since the dealers finance their cars).

i think the issue here is that consumers want to take ALL those funds into consideration, but you shouldnt. they aren't guaranteed to anyone, and they certainly shouldn't have to give any of it to you. however consumers see the extra money, and they want it.

of course, a deal is made if both the consumer and dealer are ok with the selling price, but that doesnt mean that its RIGHT for consumers to start pointing at all these bonuses and holdbacks because invoice is not the "true cost" of the car.

i think people have gotten to analytical in these things. and life is too short to spend stressing whether a dealer has mfgr to dealer rebates, holdback, bonuses, etc and try to get pieces of that. in all honesty, an invoice deal, or a hundred or two over invoice, is a reasonably good deal (obviously if there are rebates available, they are added on after that - not an invoice deal WITH rebates).

those who want to fight and point and finagle and accuse and scream after that because "invoice" isnt real to them, well - i feel sorry for them. i have better things to do with my life than worry about whether the dealer is making a buck on me. thats the reason a business exists right?

i know i can go on about this forever, and many will and wont agree, but thats what i think on the matter...

life's too short (like isell says...)

-thene

abraindrainer

If life was trully short for the people selling cars, they would not waste so much of consumer time with games! Consumers have only become analytical as a defense mechanism... and to unravel the games! Dealers have made this bed, now they have to sleep in it.

On AVERAGE you see "some" of those incentives and they are a huge part of the PROFIT picture as profit=sales-cost. Please do not snow us!

BUT I agree that invoice or even 2% over that would be ok if the real cost was trully a couple of percentage points below invoice.

exb0

What bothers me are salespeople complaining about low gross deals that are less than 3-5% on the front end, while they conveniently forget about high gross deals that are over that range.

I spoke with a Honda SM yesterday. He told that his average selling price Odyssey EXL with DVD and NAV is $33800 plus $300 in junk fees. Invoice on that van $32000. That’s 6% profit over invoice, and that is before factory to dealer incentives, volume bonuses and holdback. He said that some people who know what they are doing pay much less than that and others pay MSRP. So you guys do get that profit margin on average, but you still are whining about deals that are under 3-5% range.

The problem is that you want every deal to be at least 3-5% percent, while preserving your ability to score homeruns on stupid people. You are whining about Accords that you have to sell at invoice saying that you can’t feed your families on that, but you couldn’t care less about families of Fit buyers that pay over MSRP. I have zero sympathy for the salespeople. You would suck the last dollar out of anybody and won’t even think twice about it. If you look at statistics, the poorest and least educated people are the ones who pay the most for their cars.

Also, there is no such thing as an easy deal. If someone comes in and offers MSRP, that customer will be classified as a “laydown”, and all the junk like overpriced accessories, mop and glow and insurance will be pushed even harder. So, if I am going to be forced to fight no matter what, I’ll fight to the bitter end and get the best deal possible so that I could feed my family, not yours. Your family is your problem, not mine.

dino001

Ditto here - major difference between say furniture store or department store (where margins are often way much higher) and car store is that in the former most people pay the same price at the same time - they know they are not going to get a better or worse deal then the guy next to them (most of the time anyway). There are sales and price cuts, sometimes substantial - but again they are clearly market and available to everyone.

Car sales industry chose to do it different way - make every deal "from scratch", even when the same components are involved. It's a jackpot mentality - hit everybody with ridiculous demands and see what sticks. Mud the water so no one can see what is reasonable what is not. Hitting back with equally ridiculous demands is just one of defense tactics developed to combat it. I don't use it, but I can see why others do.

thenebean

listen, im not asking for your sympathy, i dont even sell cars anymore. and the assumptions that someone paying MSRP is going to get pushed even harder to buy the other crap is just that, an assumption. if you are going to say that salespeople "whine" about the grosses they make, then salespeople should be allowed to say that customers "whine" about MSRP, and ADM's and all that stuff. to continue this "dealers made the bed they are sleeping in" argument doesnt fix anything. customers are no longer innocent in this mess...thats for sure.

consumers constantly say "you aren't gonna feed your family off of me"...i wonder why you don't say that to bestbuy, target, walmart, or any other place of business. sam walton can feed his family off of you...what makes car dealerships different?

i am not saying that you should have to pay MSRP, and the market will not support a fixed price system anytime soon. unfortunately, there are still too many crappy dealers out there who will undercut and undersell anyone out there. what i am saying is in all honesty, to poke and prod and fight to get all that money that is given to the dealer in mfgr to dealer incentives is none of your business. and consumers who pull that crap and tell dealers "well i know you're making $xxx from holdback and $yyy from mfgr to dealer incentives deserve to be thrown out of the dealership. On the other hand, dealers who pull the "we're not making money" crap should have their customers up and leave right then and there.

bottom line - both sides now contribute to the mess that is car purchasing/sales. to blame one side only is, in my opinion, closed minded.

anyways, agree or disagree as you wish - i've been on both sides of the table, and these are my thoughts...

-thene

isellhondas

Good posts thene.

I'll never understand why some people try to determine in their own minds what is a "fair" profit for a dealer to make. They talk about holdback like it magically falls to the bottom line as profit. They don't give a thought or care about the tremendous OVERHEAD it takes just to open the doors every month. I don't want my customers to think about that, but these costs are very real.

Instead of investing 20 Million dollars to open a car dealership a person could find some good mutual funds and average 10% a year growth that way instead.

For the umpteenth time, it is the MARKET that determines what a dealer will sell a car for and not what some shopper thinks is "fair"!

abraindrainer

"there are still too many crappy dealers out there who will undercut and undersell anyone out there"

You forgot to say: there are still too many crappy dealers out there who will OVERCHARGE and OVERsell anyone out there!

Quick question: which side initiated the current practices? Who likes to exhibit CONTROL over the deal?

consumers who pull that crap and tell dealers "well i know you're making $xxx from holdback and $yyy from mfgr to dealer incentives deserve to be thrown out of the dealership. On the other hand, dealers who pull the "we're not making money" crap should have their customers up and leave right then and there.

There is small different between these two contrasting scenarios: one is "not" nice, the other is misrepresentation or lying? Personally, I prefer to be "not" nice than a liar!

My prediction: over time new auto sales will have almost no profits because vehicles are almost PURE commodities and all the PROFITS will be coming via service, used sales, etc. The information age has made that a near term reality!

abraindrainer

No one is saying that dealerships deserve no profit?

MARKETs are only efficient under the conditions of perfect information. As long as there is no perfect information or the true information is expensive to aquire, we will have variations in pricing (discriminatory pricing) and people will whine about it! Buyers have a case only if lying or mis-information are actively propogated by the seller...

thenebean

you're prediction is a few years late...dealers don't make profits off of new car sales...its from used cars and parts and service.

and can you prove which side initiated the current practices? can you also prove thats its the dealers and ONLY the dealers that like to exhibit control? were you there when this whole thing started?

and please, don't tell me what i forgot to say, and what i SHOULD be saying. you didnt even answer any of my questions, you just turned it back around. usually that happens when there isn't an answer to be had...

either way, i am just expressing my opinions...im not gonna change your mind, thats for sure...

-thene

exb0

For the umpteenth time, it is the MARKET that determines what a dealer will sell a car for and not what some shopper thinks is "fair"!

Exactly! Then why salespeople continue to come here and say that the fair price is 3-5% over invoice. If they don’t get that, they can’t pay their bills. I am referring to this post by cobraboy1 here. If your SM is willing to sell that car at $100 under invoice, then guess what, it’s the market price for that car.

Having said that, Isel, haven’t you ever try to sell a car above market using your skills and training? Please, don’t tell me that you haven’t, because that would make your store a no haggle store. Therefore, if you have the right to try to sell cars above market, then we as consumers have the right to try to buy below market using any information we could get our hands on.

isellhondas

Understood, and we DO make profit on new cars. We don't give them away.

I just don't like it when a person makes an offer based on what they THINK we might be making. It's like they feel we are a charity that they might throw a few crumbs at.

I don't know who gave out those percentages, it sure wasn't me. I also don't think salespeople should complain about not being able to pay their bills in these forums. If that is the case, they really need to find a different store or a different profession!

dino001

can you prove which side initiated the current practices?

That is easy. If consumers were the initiators, you will have SEARS and Best Buy crawling with people "making their offers" for this fridge or i-whatever, having invoices from "edmunds-like" websites telling them exactly how much they should expect to pay, angry walkouts, etc. You don't, so it seems people can live without that if the marketplace is set differently.

Truth of the matter is that it's dealers who strongly believe that current system is working for their advantage. Or at least has worked for long while. It's just recent few years when information got way more accessible, but minds of both sides still sit deeply entrenched in old assumptions and ideas.

It will take several major changes, like further consolidation, trimming nominal new car profits before some major player, like say Autoway, elects into trully one fixed price setting. Not tomorrow yet, but I think it is going to happen.

dino001

I just don't like it when a person makes an offer based on what they THINK we might be making.

I agree with you completely. Aside special purchase programs, invoice or real cost if you will, profit and other figures are only relevant for me "internally", as to make an educated guess what price you may accept, not as for me telling you how much you should make. My actions actually will say that, but it does not need to be said. Conversely, whether you eat today or not is not really my concern, either (well, not as a customer anyway - perhaps as a fellow human).

cobraboy1

Most of people are reasonable most of the time. They often get unreasonable when they're put in situation they don't fully understand. Car shopping is currently such a situation for many, as they have no time or patience to thoroughly follow the market, yet they here about those dirty tricks, huge markups, enormous incentives reported by similarly ill-informed reporters or their neighbors.

YOur right there are a lot of people that are pretty reasonable most of the time. and yet what bothers me is that I try to be as upfront and honest (seriously) as possible. I try to explain everything in detail so that there are no holes left over for other people to not understand. If there are then I try to answer them in a way that they can understand so that there is no confusion.

The thing that makes me the most angry is that my job here is to assist the customer as best as I can, I have absolutely no incentive whatsoever to lie to my client. Anyway what bothers me is the fact that a lot of people automatically think that I'm getting oone over on them simply because I'm a salesman.

I know that everyone wants to get a good deal, I like getting a good deal when I buy a tv. I will shop around for the best deal at different stores and different brands for a good deal, but at the same time I am not going to walk up to the salesman and ask that I get invoice on a big screen.

dino001

I guess you can thank some of your collegues for that bad reputation. It's very easy to lose your name and very hard to regain it. Too much of bad proctices have been there and some are still persisting. People feel like they have to protect themselves from it, so they treat you like a potential crook. It's like with everything else, including national security. Even though you are most likely to be be harmless, the airport security must assume you may be a terrorist.

It sucks, I know - but that's the cost of being "one of them".

tidester

For the umpteenth time, it is the MARKET that determines what a dealer will sell a car for and not what some shopper thinks is "fair"!

That could be rephrased as:

"For the umpteenth time, it is the MARKET that determines what a shopper will buy a car for and not what some dealer thinks is "fair!"



tidester, host

isellhondas

Sure, and when the misguided customer walks out puzzled that their offer wasn't accepted, the dealer has no fear of loss knowing the next person will pay the going market value.

It works both ways.

tidester

It works both ways.

Precisely!

tidester, host

jblaze13

Why not make the salespeople salaried with no commission and offer all new models at the same flat price at every dealership?

How about a finance person that shows the consumer a list of interest rates they have available based on credit score and length of financing. No BS.

This won't happen because the dealers are afraid to lose their fat profit margins. They could no longer take advantage of uninformed consumers. They could no longer underpay a salesperson for having a bad month. I don't need someone to "sell" me a car. I need a customer service agent (salesperson) to answer my questions. Someone who actually knows the product and leaves the BS out of the conversation.

This won't happen because the manufacturers can't bring themselves to stop producing cars that aren't selling. They stick the dealers with these unwanted vehicles and force them to sell them.

This won't happen because the UAW wants the people they represent to keep working regardless of how much the public will buy of the product they produce.

Maybe every new car should be custom ordered! Rant over.
:sick:

mako1a

For the umpteenth time, it is the MARKET that determines what a dealer will sell a car for and not what some shopper thinks is "fair"!

That MARKET is printed and updated daily. It's called EDMUNDS.

Both patries should try using it. It's even broken down into Trade-for the dealer and Retail-for the consumer. How convenient can it get?
2006 Yellow Vette base used lists for $38,600 and I offer $40,000 including trade (at Edmunds numbers) expecting to drive it home. He says no and wants $4,000 more. To him there isn't enough profit...to me he's being greedy. I didn't write the MARKET PRICE. I'm just trying to make use of it. ps I'm still bucks up and he still has a car sitting in the snow. Oh Well You'll have that. Dealers are being used by the manufacturers as holding lots and consumers are trying to stay out of the way and scare up a car at a decent price once in a while. Maybe Walmart should start selling cars. Just my opinion.

jmiller1984

Whoever started this forum has got to be kidding. A car dealer should make as much money as they can. That's why they're in business. Charge as much as the market will bear while providing the best possible service. There is no other recipe for success. To suggest otherwise is beyond naive.

abraindrainer

Maybe every new car should be custom ordered! Rant over.

That is the case in many parts of the world such as Europe: pull vs push. American dealerships/system prefer "push" because US consumers want instant gratification....

tidester

Whoever started this forum has got to be kidding.

That would be mikethecarguy who happened to be a car salesman and who posted precisely one message to the very topic he created. We haven't seen him since.

tidester, host

shasta67

Why not make the salespeople salaried with no commission and offer all new models at the same flat price at every dealership?

While that sounds like a great idea, I would be very careful what I wished for. Sure flat pricing would be cheaper for the uneducated but for the informed consumer it would be much more expensive. There is no way a dealership would sell cars at invoice or a couple of hundred over. The only reason they are doing it now is because there are enough others to make up the difference. I know Fitzmall is doing it but they don't have the competition and do lots of volume.

big_prize

"Whoever started this forum has got to be kidding. A car dealer should make as much money as they can. That's why they're in business. "

Very true.

Much like when people try to critcize companies for record profits.....um, that's why they're in the business in the first place. The ultimate goal of any business is to make money. Period. All other considerations are in relation to making more money. What keeps it in check? Competition.

jmiller1984

Glancing through the pages of messages spawned by makethecarguy's original topic sheds plenty of light on why he may have decided to remain a bystander in this forum. From what I read, there is no shortage of people who know how to run a dealership much better than the dealers themselves. Don't get me wrong... a car-buying experience is often about as pleasant as a root canal, but nobody MAKES us do it.

So the rest of this message is for those of you who think you deserve to run the dealership YOUR way because you don't like the way dealers run it their way.

If a customer is unhappy at a dealership, rather than take the abuse why not shop around for a better deal and better service? Or is it simply easier to gripe about the whole episode than it is to actually DO something about it!?! Oh, and by the way... the "do something" part does not include thinking you can slap regulations on dealership profits or otherwise dictate a dealership's (or any other type of business) legal business practices, other than by your own consumerism.

Again, a dealership should make as much as possible while providing the best service possible. In so doing, they serve themselves by ensuring a reward for their risk and work while at the same time serving their customers and community. If the dealership fails at either one of these goals they cannot be successful.

isellhondas

An excellent post!

thenebean

agreed! well said jmiller!!

lrguy44

Great job - and what some people forget is that if the companies they work for were not out to maximize profits they would not have a job and could not buy a new car. Why should a dealership be any different?

isellhondas

They don't stop to think where those evil profit dollars go...back into the community and to pay taxes!

thenebean

but i thought those evil profit dollars send your kids to med school! and thats wrong for you to want to use what you earn to send your kids to med school...

:P

imidazol97

I can guarantee the holdings of the owner of one group of dealerships used his profits to buy an unbelievable lifestyle of homes and to buy other dealerships over the last three decades. Profits didn't all go back into the community and into taxes.

abraindrainer

I agree! Very true: market is king.

However, market only works if it operates fairly: there must be a "reasonable" set of rules for engagement. No lying by either side. Both sides must keep their word. And there must be cost efficient legal remedies beyond BBB to keep everyone honest. If not, the bigger kids on the block will continue to beat the piss :sick: out of a few little brats on a regular basis. Good luck!

lrguy44

No publication (including Edmunds) sets the market price. Kelly and NADA are guides, not bibles. I remember when every Range Rover Sport deal was MSRP and California dealers were getting ridiculous amounts above that and Edmunds had a TMV well below MSRP. The market is driven by supply and demand. Basic economics to be sure, but true.

jblaze13

I'm sure everybody who regularly takes the uninformed for a ride would agree with your post. I'm not concerned for myself because I know enough not to be taken for a ride. My concern is for the car buying public as a whole. If it costs me a few hundred dollars more to avoid the fiasco that salepeople put most people through and even the playing field for the uninformed then I'm all for it.

The dealership serves the community! You must be posting from a mental ward. :mad: They clearly serve themselves. You acknowledged that when you stated they should make as much money as they can. Most for-profit businesses have to pay taxes. Thats not considered giving back.

Don't get me wrong... a car-buying experience is often about as pleasant as a root canal, but nobody MAKES us do it.
I don't like to go to the DMV either but I don't exactly have a choice do I. If most people didn't have to go to a dealership for a test drive and to finalize the deal they certainly would not.

The process of car buying has been "unpleasant" for the consumer for a long time. Now that the tables are starting to turn the side that has benefitted for years is complaining. Consumers didn't just start complaining recently. What I was suggesting was a middle ground. If the attitude is all or nothing than I will take all. The profession of selling cars will change dramatically in years to come. While I acknowlege that there are good car salesmen in existance, it seems to be a fast way for people with little skill or knowledge to make a fast buck. Barely a step above a con artist. The public doesn't need car salesmen as they currently exist.

jmiller1984

jblaze13, yo' on fire man, and I'm the one gettin' burned!

Friend, I am nowhere near as altruistic as you seem to be. You see, as a consumer I refuse to pay more for anything than absolutely necessary within the guidelines of also receiving what I consider good service. You, and others who share your opinions, are welcome to pay more. In fact, I want you to do so because I will be able to get an even better deal as a result! Gracias amigo!

Now, about the "mental ward" comment... Who told you that? When I signed the lobotomy papers they told me no one would find out. Okay, so now it's out, and you're correct! I'm absolutely crazy! But... I'm STILL paying less for my car (and apparently everything else) than you pay for exactly the same stuff.

Hey, there's a free straight-jacket hangin' right here. Come on over and give it a try. I bet anything it'll fit.

Adios mi amigo loco!

lrguy44

The first thing I would say to someone who has your ideas is "I won't judge you by my last customer if you won't judge me by your last dealership!"

Try buying a high end car - it might change your mind - there are professional sales people out there. Don't generalize - it becomes a personal attack on those in the business who are real professionals.

it seems to be a fast way for people with little skill or knowledge to make a fast buck.
Those kind do not make a fast buck - they don't last long. In your low end slam store it is not the sales people - it's the managers who control them that sets the tone.

jblaze13

I appreciate the humor! I'll turn down the fire and stick to the facts. Like I said, I don't have a problem getting very good deals for myself because I'm willing to go to every dealer in the country to get what I want. There's typically someone willing to undercut the deal you have in hand. I've gone as far as taking a 2 hour flight to pickup a car and driving it home. I'll have a car shipped to me. Whatever I need to do to get the best deal available to me.

I guess I'm generally more concerned for the common good where most are concerned with themselves.

I take issue with SOME salepeople acting as if the consumer wanting them to take as small a profit as possible out of their pockets is a problem. It sickens me because I've purchased many cars and I've seen how shady they can be.

It appears your stance is all is fair in love and war and I can respect that.

jblaze13

Try buying a high end car - it might change your mind

My last 4 purchases were from Audi, Acura, Volvo, and Land Rover. Maybe I need to purchase a Maybach to have that great experience.

You're right about my generalizing. However, I've purchased many cars and have helped others purchase cars and my opinion is a result of all of those experiences as a whole.

In your low end slam store it is not the sales people - it's the managers who control them that sets the tone.

Again, I generally deal with high end brands. Those in the middle have to have some standards for themselves. They made me do it is not a good excuse.

I acknowledge in my post that there are good salesmen but perosnal experience and stories heard from others leads me to believe that most salesmen aren't professionals at all.

dino001

You may actually be paying less... or not. One of the greatest achievements of car retailers is to make believe majority of the their customers that their deal was better than their neighbors. It's actually a foundation of their current business model - obscure the facts to the point that the sucker will believe in anything you tell them. So guess what - if majority believes they did better than majority, how do you think they really did?

Fixed price retail does not mean same price everywhere and at all times. Sears price is usually higher than Wal-Mart's and lower than Kohl's or Dillard's. For the same merchandise. All of those stores have seasonal, weekend or even half-day sales when you can get the stuff cheaper than "every day" price. Same model can be easily adopted by car retailers (at least in area of new car pricing; there are other components of transaction not easily adaptable, such as financing and trade-in). Customers would have no trouble in adopting to it, either as they do it already in virtually every other retail. Buying strategies would shift from "beating up the salesman" to simply finding out the best place and time. Selling strategies would shift from "beating down the customer" to finding the "sweet spot" on most profitable price in given environment (location, time of the year, model demand, etc.). Pretty much the same as now, but in more global way rather than micro managing each deal.

They just choose not to do so at this time. Part of their justification is that the customers wouldn't let them. An they are right, in a sense - if they trained people for decades to behave certain way, they cannot expect a sudden change in response just because they say they have a new business model.

mako1a

Supply is spilling onto the streets, but dealers are still holding out for old margains they will never see. Trade values have plummeted and new and used vehicles on lots will soon follow. Right now the second hand econo dealers are making money at the expense of new car sites. Old NEW cars will have to go along with 1-2 yr old cars with warranties expiring. This should be interesting for optional buyers like me who can wait years if necessary. Or wait for the non-conglomerate family owned dealers to collapse.

boomchek

I think the reason some people view dealers in a negatvie way because of one thing that has nothing to do with dealers:

Cars depreciate.

When you buy a new car for $20k, and some time later it's worth $10k, the dealers get blamed automatically. Why? Because it's the same group of people that told you $20k is a good deal, and then they tell you $10k it's all the car's worth. So the consumer automatically thinks "well the dealers ripped them off" from the start, and made sooooo much money on them, selling them a $10k car for $20k.

If houses were a depreciating asset, we'd all be blaming real estate agents. Electronics depreciate, yet we don't blame the electronics stores because they don't take our obsolete junk in on trade ins, if they would we'd be furious at them. We know electrnics depreciate, and we know prices go down from year to year, yet the reason we don't have any negativity towards them is because we don't go back to the same group of people and ask them what the stuff we bought it's worth, and we don't hear them tell us in our faces that it's worthless.

Depreciation is unfortunately dictated by, gulp, you the consumers.

Why are you losing a ton of money on a Cavalier? Because the car sucks, people have problems with it, and they told many other people about it, and therefore not many want to buy it, and therefore dictate what the car is worth. This is called market value, because you the consumers are the market, and you the consumers dictate what you will pay for it.

And because of that, the market (read: your fellow consumers) dictates what your car is worth, and how much you will lose on it if you sell it or trade it in.

The dealers are just brokers in this complex scheme, and we just want to get compensated for our time. Thank you.

dino001

That's a very good observation. On top of it add large gross margin on used vehicles (say same guy tells me my Camry is worth 10 grand and then puts it for 15 on sale).
Most people have no first clue about economics of retail (or economics of anything, including their own households), so it's hard to explain to someone the risk-reward and markup factors (my Camry could have shot trasmission, it still needed a fair reconditioning, etc.). That definitely adds the negativity.

This definitely does not explain all negitivity, but definitely puts dealers uphill in their PR battle.

jmiller1984

jblaze13,

You sound like a good person, and a person I would like to count among my friends. I agree that striving for the common good is incomparably greater than chasing personal gain. However, I do not necessarily trust others to feel the same way.

To be completely honest, my own charitable feelings often evaporate when I am presented with an opportunity that will benefit my family or myself. As a result, I usually stick to a consumer-based approach when buying and selling stuff, and work hard at developing a more altruistic side when it comes to personal matters.

Okay everybody... let loose a big sigh, why away the tear, and get ready for the Kodak Moment.

Now back to what we all love best... CARS!

isellhondas

Well, it sickens some of us see how downright cheap SOME people can be in their zeal to save a very small amount of money!

"I'm willing to go to every dealer in the country to get what I want"

Wow...

Life is short....

boomchek

"but perosnal experience and stories heard from others leads me to believe that most salesmen aren't professionals at all."

Jblaze, this is a valid point, especially from your own experience, however, it is well known that people in general share more bad stories than good ones.

I think the saying is if you do a good job with someone, they'll tell one other person about it. If you do a crappy job, they'll tell ten other people.

lrguy44

What you say is true about domestics - and it goes back to the basic principals of supply and demand. Over produce, then used rebates and 0% finance to take the value out of the vehicle. That causes deteriation of trade in values of vehicles that have already depreciated. The overproduction of domestics is a consequence in part of labor agreements. But dealers cannot be blamed for this - it is the manufacture of unexciting vehicles that can't be sold (demand). Look how a Lexus or Acura hold value as a used commodity. I really don't understand your comment about the demise of family owned dealerships. could you please explain.
Also, independent used dealers will always sell for less as they do not have to recondition or certify used vehicles like franchised dealers do.

boomchek

On top of it add large gross margin on used vehicles (say same guy tells me my Camry is worth 10 grand and then puts it for 15 on sale).

But once again the market dictates that. The market dictates that they will pay $15k for a Camry at a dealer, and only $10k privately. Because they trust dealers more, because they have something to fall back on if the car breaks down. If they didn't trust the dealer more they wouldn't be paying more.

jblaze13

I usually don't have to go that far. The local dealers undercut each other plenty.

Well, it sickens some of us see how downright cheap SOME people can be in their zeal to save a very small amount of money!

Some people push it pretty far but it is their money.

There's no denying that most cars are depreciating assets. Anyone with sense realizes that going in. The question of being compensated for time is how much should the dealer be compenstated? Reading these posts gives the impression that dealers don't want consumers deciding what is fair compensation even though there seems to be a consensus that the consumer is the market.