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Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

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Comments

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I think sandman may have been talking about the 2001-2006 version, but I'm not sure. I like the newer version MUCH better, although I don't think everyone is giving the Civic a chance. I found the location of the speedometer in the Civic to be very intuitive, clear, and easy to see; especially when driving in a trafficky time of day. Very little "eyes off the road" time with that layout.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I can live with the Civic's speedo. But the dash overall doesn't impress me. It's as if Honda was trying a bit too hard to qualify the Civic for Star Fleet.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I can't live with the Civics dash, traditional gauges are so much better.
    Civic evokes memories of 1980's K-Car electronic talking dashes. I was never so unfortunate to own an 80's K-Car, though I did drive a few of them.
  • sandman46sandman46 Posts: 1,798
    What does this mean? I think it's time for me to take a break from this forum. It's comments like these that have changed the tone in Edmunds forums over the last few years and have ruined Edmunds for me. Maybe a break wil do me good.
    Enjoy your rides folks...I know I do. Good luck and G-d bless folks.

    The Sandman...signing off.
  • I can't live with the Civics dash, traditional gauges are so much better.

    How are "traditional gauges" better?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    "Low budget space opera" means a sci fi show such as Farscape. Sorry you were offended by someone trying to express their honest opinion on a car with a little humor. I suppose you were offended by the folks at C/D saying things like this about the Civic's dash:

    Overly sculpted dash panel, near-and-far instrument layout

    The driver looks out over a ridiculous landscape

    I hate everything but the way it drives


    They also compared the Civic's cockpit to a "space capsule."

    Compared to these, saying the dash looks like something out of a low-budget space opera seems pretty tame to me. :surprise:
  • I don't see ANY problem with the comments he left about the Civic. After all, it's called an OPINION, something that everyone has, and is free to share on a car forum such as this one. No profanity was used, and it wasn't to offend anyone in particular.

    I happen to dislike the new Civic. The dash indeed looks like it's from a bad sci-fi movie, and looks just as big as the dash from the "dustbuster" Lumina APV. The windshield hangs out way too far over the hood, and it throws the entire car out of proportion. I like how it looks from the back, but as I walk toward the front, it slowly gets worse.

    But again, it's all IMHO. :)

    For my $$$, I'd take the Mazda3.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    is one of the things that i DO miss about my civic. I personally don't think it looks like 'low budget space opera." More like 'she'll make .5 past light speed biatch."

    I love the civics dash. And there are more real world people who think so than a couple of forum goers who don't.

    Sorry sandman. See ya later.
  • eldainoeldaino Posts: 1,618
    too bad c/d didn't discuss the possibilities of the cars prices when opting for aftermarket rims.
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    Seems hard to find today, but I like big, simple gauges that you can read during the day in bright sunlight without the need for any backlight, because in bright sunlight, any backlit gauges are going to be hard to read, especially for drivers wearing sunglasses. Get rid of the deep tubes and give me some plain flat dials anyday! I think the engineers should design the gauges for bright sunlight for drivers with sunglasses, not for the night-time coolness factor.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Seems hard to find today, but I like big, simple gauges that you can read during the day in bright sunlight without the need for any backlight, because in bright sunlight, any backlit gauges are going to be hard to read, especially for drivers wearing sunglasses. Get rid of the deep tubes and give me some plain flat dials anyday! I think the engineers should design the gauges for bright sunlight for drivers with sunglasses, not for the night-time coolness factor.

    Like these on my old Accord (1996 LX Auto)?

    image

    They are a breeze to read, but not nearly as easy to read quickly at night as are those in my 2006 Accord EX which contrast much more, for better clarity:

    image
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    yes, those look great. Black on white. and the pointer is easy to see too. I test drove a Matrix with deep tubes, organge dials, with a very thin orange pointer that were very difficult to read.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Very positive overall. Seems like a top notch entry.

    However, was anyone else puzzled as to why Hyundai would tout the following "Its chassis is 49-percent more rigid than before (9-percent stiffer than even that of the Toyota Corolla)"

    Is it really an accomplishment to boast that the Elantra is 9% more rigid than a car introduced in March of 2002? And geez, they make the old Elantra sound like it had the structural integrity of oatmeal.....

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    They are positioning the Elantra against the Corolla and Civic specifically, so I expect Hyundai's marketeers take every opportunity to point out how the Elantra is better than those cars. Frankly, if I were them I would have left off the comparison with the Corolla because 49% improvement sounds a lot better than 9% better. But I also wouldn't compare the interior of the Elantra to the Acura TL, as Hyundai is doing. I don't think many people cross-shop the Elantra and TL.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I noticed something odd in pricing of the Spectra vs. Elantra. Comparably equipped, the Spectra lists for hundreds more than the Elantra! I thought Kia was supposed to be the "value" brand for Hyundai/Kia and Hyundai was supposed to be the "premium" brand. If so, Kia has a problem with the new Elantra. Why would anyone buy an older design with less crash protection, less interior room, fewer features, and a similar powertrain but with worse fuel economy, for more money?

    As an example, the Spectra SX AT sedan with ABS lists at about $700 more than the Elantra SE. The Spectra has a $1500 rebate however, so right now real-world pricing will favor the Spectra. If Hyundai puts a general rebate on the Elantra, Kia could have a hard time selling those Spectras unless they drop the price further. Maybe the 2007 Spectra will have a lower list price that is closer to the Elantra's?
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    Interesting points on the pricing, I agree! With respect to interiors, I didnt realize that the Elantra is being compared to the TL, but in all seriousness, I think Hyundai did a bang-up job with the Elantra interior, and I'd definitely go so far as to say that its Hyundai's best sedan interior, style-wise (and possibly ergonomically, too). Since its a budget-type car, I think the move to bluish interior lighting a la the trendy and youth admired small VW offerings is smart, and makes a targeted appeal to that consumer base. The Elantra, whether or not it placed highly in C/D's comparison, is seemingly the most car for the money in this segment.

    ~alpha
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I agree that the Elantra is a great value in its class now, but here's a "what if" that would make the Elantra best in class IMO:

    * Add XM radio standard (done deal, already in the pipeline),
    * Add ESC with traction control standard (giving the Elantra best-in-class safety features),
    * Bring over the Euro-spec steering tuning (unless we already have it), and
    * Drop in the 1.8L, 148 hp all-aluminum engine that Hyundai developed with DCX and Mitsubishi (should provide similar if not better straight-line performance with better fuel economy), and
    * Add less than $500 to the MSRP.

    I think these things would be enough to vault the Elantra to the top of the class even in the eyes of performance-oriented folks like the editors of C/D.
  • I agree that Kia needs more than just the updated Spectra that's coming out, but it's not completely fair to compare the Elantra SE and Spectra SX without mentioning the handling. Having been in a run of the mill Spectra and then a Spectra SX, there is a *world* of difference in how the cars handle. The sport-tuned suspension in the SX (and Spectra5) is wonderful. So from what I've read about the new Elantra, I'd imagine the current Spectra SX would outhandle a new Elantra SE easily.

    Now if they sport-tune the Elantra in the future like they just did with the Accent, now we're talkin'!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I compared the SX to the Elantra SE because the SX is the only Spectra sedan on which you can get ABS and factory alloys (which the SE has).

    As for handling, what are the steering and suspension bits that the Spectra SX has that the 2007 Elantra does not? Remember that the Elantra's suspension was tweaked for 2007, e.g. bigger sway bars. Also the Elantra has a different steering set up than the Spectra--electronic power steering.

    How much of the improvement in the Spectra SX's handling is due to its bigger rubber, do you suppose?

    I agree though it isn't fair to compare the Spectra SX to the Elantra SE, without mentioning the features that the Elantra has that the Spectra does not. The Elantra has aux input, standard XM radio (on the cars shipping now), telescopic steering wheel, audio and cruise controls on the wheel, trip computer, 3 rear headrests, and active front headrests. And also the bigger interior, higher fuel economy, and better crash test results I mentioned earlier.

    I haven't heard anything about the updated Spectra. Is that due for 2007? Do you have any details on it?
  • spmrebelspmrebel Posts: 130
    As for handling, what are the steering and suspension bits that the Spectra SX has that the 2007 Elantra does not? Remember that the Elantra's suspension was tweaked for 2007, e.g. bigger sway bars. Also the Elantra has a different steering set up than the Spectra--electronic power steering.

    The steering and suspension are probably more different than before since the 2007 Elantra is the next evolution of the Elantra platform. Its not really about the differences in suspension pieces, steering, large sway bars or necessarily the technology behind them but is how well they are tuned to the chassis. I have driven both the Spectra5 and 2007 Elantra GLS. Spectra5 ride is as compliant as 2007 Elantra GLS and it handles better than the 07 Elantra GLS. Quite frankly I had a 87 Dodge Daytona Shelby Z that the suspension technology was archaic in comparison to my 05 Elantra GT but handled much better. I am talking about torsion bar rear suspension compared to Elantra's IRS setup. A lot of the tuning that went into Mazda 3 was also put into Spectra 5 and SX since Kia recruited the same head performance engineer from Mazda (this was before current generation Spectra was launched).

    How much of the improvement in the Spectra SX's handling is due to its bigger rubber, do you suppose?

    Like I have said in another forum (2007 Elantra - First Impression) its not tire size but profile and width that helps in the handling department assuming suspension chassis/suspension components are identical. It can also be the brand or tire rating. Its not bigger tires like you think it is. In this case the tires are smaller on Spectra5/SX (205-50-R16) than 07 Elantra SE/Limited (205-55-R16).

    I agree though it isn't fair to compare the Spectra SX to the Elantra SE, without mentioning the features that the Elantra has that the Spectra does not. The Elantra has aux input, standard XM radio (on the cars shipping now), telescopic steering wheel, audio and cruise controls on the wheel, trip computer, 3 rear headrests, and active front headrests. And also the bigger interior, higher fuel economy, and better crash test results I mentioned earlier.

    Spectra is now a generation behind Elantra since the 07 model introduction.

    I haven't heard anything about the updated Spectra. Is that due for 2007? Do you have any details on it?

    Its a mild restyle for Spectra. Not much new other than new front and rear end styling changes from what I have seen and read. Similiar to Elantra from 2003 to 2004 model change over. 07 Spectra has yet to be introduced
  • Pardon my dumb question, but what or how much difference does the "factory alloys" make in anything? I have seen several comments relating to this, but don't understand. Please inform me. Thanks, van
  • Backy, I don't know the specifcs of the Spectra SX suspension, but I do know it's definitely altered in some way, tweaked with some people from Mazda apparently, and it feels like you're in a completely different car compared to the Spectra/previous Elantra. I'm imagining it's like how the Accent SE hatch performs totally differently from the Accent GS hatch. You can't attribute all of that to bigger wheels.

    I don't think the '07 Spectra SX will change in any significant way besides the refreshening/aux jack. I really do agree with you that the Elantra has the value award won hands down, plus it offers many more features that the Spectra doesn't, but people will definitely pay the same amount for less car if it handles better.
  • * Drop in the 1.8L, 148 hp all-aluminum engine that Hyundai developed with DCX and Mitsubishi (should provide similar if not better straight-line performance with better fuel economy)

    BTW, do you guys know that Hyundai made the engine block, not DCX and Mitsubishi? They pay royalties to Hyundai and add their own technology (Dual VVT for DCX, MIVEC for Mitsu, and CVVT for Hyundai).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    ... how much difference does the "factory alloys" make in anything?

    If you want alloy wheels, due to appearance or their lighter sprung weight compared to steel wheels (which can help handling), they add about $500+/- value to a car compared to a car that doesn't have them. Of course, you can always add them aftermarket, but in the case of the 2007 Elantra (also the Spectra we've been discussing), the factory alloys are a different size than the standard steel wheels, so you'd either need to get smaller alloys than come from the factory, or get new tires too.

    Personally I really like the factory alloys on the 2007 Elantra SE and Limited; I think the standard steel wheels and plastic covers look cheap. Since the SE is only about $800 more than the GLS and includes other useful features in addition to the alloys such as telescopic wheel, trip computer, audio controls on the wheel, and leather wheel and shift knob, I would go with the SE vs. the GLS.
  • Thanks guess I never thought that much about them before seeing all of the comments here.
    van
  • deekzdeekz Posts: 9
    I just found a rather obscure site called www.ifcar.net which gives an informative and clean summary-comparo of many of these cars.

    Hope this helps some. ;)
  • sandman46sandman46 Posts: 1,798
    The Sandman :)
  • sopmansopman Posts: 46
    Why is it that with the A/C off and the contol pointing at defrost (windshield), when you turn the knob to direct the air flow to your feet the A/C light comes on? Does this run the compressor? Is there a purpose for this?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    To properly defog a window, you want the A/C on to dehumidify the air. If A/C is turned off, the windows will fog from heated moist air blowing on the windows. Nearly all cars do this automatically nowadays.
  • It makes the defroster/defogger more effective. It also gives the compressor a chance to cycle which is supposedly good for it as well.
    It makes sense, the evaporator and condenser that take the humidity of the hot summer air also take the humidity out of the vehicle when it starts condensing where you don't want it, IE the windsheild.
    Other than a very small fuel economy hit, there really isn't a disadvantage to this at all and its much more effective than just blowing hot air on the windshield.
This discussion has been closed.