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Economy Sedans (~$16k-$20k)

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  • I happen to want all the bells and whistles. I want a sunroof and all the good stuff. LOL. Anyway, the Mazda3, as much as I loved the car, to get it with the options that I want would still run close to $20k using the build a car system from Mazda's website and other sites that I tried. The Elantra with the same options would run me 3K or more less than the Mazda. I think the Elantra might be a little more comfortable for me on the longer trips....as mentioned before, I have problems with my knees and I, also, have some back problems, so a certain comfort level in the seating is rather important for me. The Elantra also seems to "feel" a little larger to me, whether it really is or not. That is a subjective thing, but a smaller car that has somewhat of the "feel" of a larger car is kind of nice. I want the smaller car but do like that larger "feel". Please don't suggest stepping up to, say, a Sonata or others in that class. I DO want the smaller more fuel efficient car and definitely want the smaller price tag. BTW what is it with older ladies and their giant Buicks, Oldsmobiles and the like. I see these little old ladies driving these great big tanks and wonder what goes on in their heads. Bet they don't parallel park much with those big tanks. :D :confuse: :D
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    Well, first of all, the tires that come standard on the Mazda3 are 17-inch V-rated Goodyear Eagle RSAs in a size of 205/50-17. At TireRack (which is usually a little cheaper than going to Goodyear) those tires are $169 each. That's just the tires. If you include $20 per tire for mounting, balancing and valve stems, then the replacement cost for one set is $756, not including any taxes. So two changes would be worth more like $1,500.

    Mazdas tend to use larger and higher-rated tires than Hyundai. The 2004 Elantra GLS and GT models used 15-inch H-rated Michelin Energy MXV4s, which cost $103 each at TireRack (and $66 less per tire = $264 less per change or more than a $500 difference in your two-sets scenario). That's one reason I was delighted to hear about the free tires for life offer -- from past experience, knowing Mazda's quirky tire sizes and high-end choices, I know Mazdas ain't cheap when it's tire replacement time!

    Extending my warranty was not included in the price I quoted earlier, but I know I paid about $700 for it.

    Meade

    P.S. Regarding comfort and options, I cannot have a sunroof because I'm too tall. And I didn't want side air bags, nor can I stand automatic transmissions and ABS. So the base 3 hatch in "S" trim (which is far from "base" by most cars' standards) was just fine with me, and I thank Mazda for not including all that safety fluff as standard equipment like more and more car makers are doing these days as a way to get at least an extra $1,000 out of you.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    That's too bad the cost of ownership for the Mazda3s is increased by the expensive tires. :( I recently replaced the tires on my '01 Elantra (the Michelins) with Kumho Ecsta HP4 716s that provide better ride, lower noise, and better wear than the Michelins for under $300 total, including a lifetime replacement warranty. I would have been crazy to pay all that money for the Michelins given their lousy wear and performance.

    As for side air bags, I guess you didn't see the IIHS side crash test results for the Mazda3 without side air bags and curtains--not too good. (They weren't too good on the Elantra either, but I bought my Elantras before those results were published.) Personally I don't consider safety features such as airbags "fluff". I will be sure that any new car I buy from now on has both side bags and curtains. The need for ABS is questionable; my '01 Elantra stops very well without it, for instance, but since the '04 GT is my wife's daily driver and she doesn't have good winter driving skills (grew up in south Texas), and we do get a lot of snow/ice up here, I thought the ABS/traction option was the way to go on that car. And the moonroof (my first) is pretty nice, I must admit--no headroom problem on the Elantra fortunately even though the tallest driver of the car is 6'3".
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    I guess you didn't see the IIHS side crash test results for the Mazda3 without side air bags and curtains--not too good.

    Oh, I saw 'em. I also saw how in 40 years of life and more than a dozen cars, I haven't needed SAB's (couldn't have until recently, even if I'd wanted them) and I'm still here to talk about it. You know, my car could catch on fire, yet I don't have a cabin fire-extinguishing system. My car could get caught in rising floodwaters, and I don't have life jackets and outriggers on board. A meteor could land on my car and I don't have roof air bags.

    Oooh boy, you asked for it now: a full-blown Meadietorial from both barrels! Here goes:

    I'm tired of my government telling me what the latest and greatest safety device is, and then dictating to me that I should pay my own money for it. I've gotten along just fine for years without air bags of any kind, I've only had ABS once (because it was standard -- I couldn't stand it and was glad to get rid of it), and as for traction control, well whoop-de-doo! I have traction control. I slow down in the rain and I stay at home when the weather's bad.

    As for side impacts, I guess I'll just have to look both ways at intersections.

    Ooops, I'm supposed to be doing that already.

    My government told me about that when I took my driving test.

    Cynical? No, realistic. We all take chances in life, and we weigh risks and options when doing many things. I choose to take my chances at being a good defensive driver instead of other things like playing the lottery -- a true waste of time and money.

    By the way, I hydroplaned and totaled a 10-month-old Protege back in 1992. 45 mph into the back of a stopped Volvo station wagon. I walked away.

    Oh -- no air bags at all in the '92s.

    One other thing -- I know air bags are great safety devices that protect you in really bad accidents. But there are other types of accidents. If both of us experience, say, a 5-mph side collision, you in your SAB-equipped Hyundai and me in my non-SAB-equipped Mazda, chances are, by the time the body work and your side and head curtain air bags (if you have them) are replaced, your car will be totaled -- resulting in higher insurance payments for you than I, whose car will still be on the road.

    Let's see. Six months and 8,900 miles. Still alive, and I have yet to see any 3,000 pound chunks of concrete and steel coming at me from the side. Maybe it's because, unlike those oh-so-realistic crash tests, my car isn't bolted to a track, I have two good eyes, hands that can steer, and a foot ready to hit the brakes at all times.

    I'll tell ya, hitting a seat belt at 45 mph teaches you a few things about life and makes you realize how foolhardy it is to drive faster than conditions warrant.

    Meade
  • oldjoeoldjoe Posts: 132
    .....errr...why would you look at any Korean car in comparison to the Honda Civic...the standard for small autos recognized around the world for resale vale, quality, longevity and just a great car?
  • ".....errr...why would you look at any Korean car in comparison to the Honda Civic...the standard for small autos recognized around the world for resale vale, quality, longevity and just a great car?"

    OldJoe,

    Maybe because other companies continue to improve their product, much like Honda had too, when they first brought over their little rust buckets to North America. In the last 5 years, Hyundai, which now owns KIA, has drastically improved their vehicles in terms of styling and build quality.

    In the same interim, Honda has remained largely stagnant and has been decontenting the Civic to a large extent. One could also make an argument based on some studies and reports that Honda's build quality has also been greatly reduced in recent years.

    Honda has a great and well deserved reputation for engineering and building fine automobiles. However, they have done very little recently to justify this reputation and their competitors have either already passed them, or in the case of the Korean companies, are certainly not very far behind.

    When my wife and I were shopping for a vehicle for her in 2000, we chose the Mazda Protege ES sedan. Number two on that list was the Elantra. The Civic was a distant 3rd, the Sentra 4th, the Jetta 5th and the Corolla 6th. I did not, nor ever will buy a domestic car so these were not tested.

    Why in the world would anyone buy a car solely on what a company has done in the past???!! I agree that a reputation for quality is of great importance, but this pales in comparison to the current quality of the vehicle you wish to buy.

    The reality of the situation is that Korean cars are now a reasonable alternative and in some cases, a better choice than Japanese cars pending ones budget and requirements.
  • re: "I'm tired of my government telling me what the latest and greatest safety device is, and then dictating to me that I should pay my own money for it."
    and
    "I'll tell ya, hitting a seat belt at 45 mph teaches you a few things about life and makes you realize how foolhardy it is to drive faster than conditions warrant."
    and
    "We all take chances in life, and we weigh risks and options when doing many things."

    If you're tired of government dictates and like taking chances, why do you wear a seat belt? Just curious.
  • mdaffronmdaffron Posts: 4,421
    And they don't cost extra.

    And if you don't wear them ... well, the government makes even a BIGGER financial statement in your life. :cry:

    Luckily, they haven't made air bags a legal requirement ... yet.

    :P
  • Just had to jump in payed 18,600 for a Mazda 6i with
    Bose ,Moonroof , 5 Speed , TCS/ABS , Sport Version so get the spoiler and
    suspension,17 inch alloys with foglights and alot of other stuff

    Mazda gave 2k off on rebate , 1k finance off from mazda credit [refinanced it in 2 days awith my credit union for a low rate], 500 coupon from zoom zoom event.
    Got a 500$ gerber on the way but if i waited i could have used it ....but got 1

    i payed 20,500 with Tax, Lo Jack -700$ OTD
  • blaneblane Posts: 2,017
    Is it my imagination or has this forum become Mazda versus Hyundai? Kinda boring.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,621
    why won't you consider 'a domestic'?
  • It's not that I don't like any domestics. I had a Grand Am for a number of years and loved it. The issue for me is that I am unable to get any domestic brand in a size I like, with the options I like, for anywhere near the price of what Hyundai/Kia are offering. I thought about going for a used car. I kind of like the Dodge Stratus, but when I investigated prices for them discovered that 2000, 2001, 2002 with 20k miles or less on them were selling in my area for nearly the same $$$$$$ as brand new Hyundais and Kias and they were better optioned than the Stratuses. Domestic builders seem unable to compete in this category witness that the Focus and the Cobalt were the only domestic badges included in the comparison. Maybe the domestic guys are too busy building gas guzzling SUVs. I don't know. I should maybe give the Focus a chance, but I've seen a few of them and they just don't talk to me. It has been the Mazdas, Spectras, and Hyundais that have raised the goose bumps on my arms. The Mazda has sort of moved itself out of the running because of price, but maybe I should go back and reduce some of the options that I wanted to get the price down. If I did that, would I be happy with having less than what I really wanted, or do I go ahead and go for the Hyundai/Spectra twins that have everything I want???? :confuse:
  • I have the same problem buying clothes that I'm having buying cars. I, for the life of me, can not justify paying $60-$80 for a shirt just because it has the name of some guy like Calvin Kline on it (insert any other "name" for Calvin Kline if you wish). You look at the label and it's made in Bangledesh, Sri Lanka, Thailand, India, etc. You know that shirt did not cost very much to manufacture. Is the quality better than a shirt I buy at J.C.Penney for $15???? You can't convince me that it is....and, yes, the J.C. Penney shirts are made in the same countries, maybe even the same factories as the big name guys. The shirts I've bought from J.C. Penney have lasted me a goodly length of time, have kept their looks, and were at least $45 cheaper than the other guy's(leaving me that $45 to spend on...say....FOOD). $135 for a pair of jeans. Absolutely friggin forget it. I feel our society has gotten SOOO caught up in the "name" game that manufacturers feel they can tack on boocoo extra $$$$$ for their product JUST because it has a certain "badge" on it. In the meantime, the so called no name guy is out there with just as good a product and sells it less than the other guys. Until someone can prove to me that the big name guys' products are THAT much better than the lesser name guy, I'll tend to throw my lot in with the no name guy with the good product at a reasonable price. Hence, my tendency to keep my car shopping list pared down to the Korean twins. Give me proof positive that Hondas or Toyotas or whomever are THAT much better to warrant the extra $$$, and I might reconsider. I've been reading these and other forums for months now, and I have yet seen anyone come forth with an argument that convinces me that is the case. I've heard talk about resale value which means absolutely nothing to me, because by the time I'm ready to get a new car I really don't expect much more than $500 trade in for my old one. If I get more than that, I feel like I've gotten a bonus. Now, rip me apart everyone. I know I'm a cheap SOB.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,621
    iowa,
    hopefully, nobody will rip you apart for posting your opinion. it is how you feel. i really don't care what anyone else does, i just am trying to figure out how other people think. thanks for the very exhaustive posts. i just hope others will read this and figure out how to make a decision they will be happy with. when i bought a car, i made a different decision, for my own reasons. there is not one answer that works for everyone.
  • csandstecsandste Posts: 1,866
    my 05 Maxx is much more car and at $16K is on the bottom end of these comparison cars. The Spec. 5 didn't make my final list because at the time they had that initial bad crash test. My Hyundai dealer (despite my fondness for the Elantra) was seedy. The one or two MPG difference between the 5 speed Elantra and the Maxx is more than made up with the cost of getting a timing best changed. Didn't think I'd care for things like a full info. center (know Hyundai has this with the GT), power pedals and seats, fully adjustable steering column, but for $16K it's pretty nice. Just like I got used to power windows and locks in the Elantra.

    Did drive the Mazda3 and liked it a lot (just sat in it again last week and that feeling was reaffirmed) however comparing similar levels of accessories it's actually more expensive than my Maxx. I like the Mazda 6 (more mid-size hatches and wagons, please!) but the level of reliability is less than the Maxx or the Mazda 3, and that price definitely takes you out of the 16-20 price range unless you get a left over 4 cylinder.

    Haven't even seen the new Civic but a digital speedo. still reminds me of the pre-2005 Suzuki Aerio or something out of 1985. Maybe the idea is a lot better in person.
  • Thanks, explorer,

    It's nice to hear from someone who may disagree with someone but who is also able to see the other person's line of thought.

    Ok. Did some recalculations and here is how things shook out. Please keep in mind that the Hyundai/Kia have some things that the Mazda has only as options or doesn't have at all....but the same can be said about the Korean twins.

    Mazda3:

    Trim package S
    Options added: Automatic tranny @ $900 and moonroof/6 CD changer @ $890. Did not select the package which contains the ABS or extra airbags or curtains so these would need to be added on while they are included in the Korean twin prices.

    MSRP = $19,455

    Kia Spectra5:
    trim package: Base
    options added: Auto tranny @ $970, moonroof @ $700, antilock brakes @ $400, cruise control @ $250.

    MSRP = $18,115

    Hyundai Elantra
    Trim package: GT 5 door
    Options added: Package 8 (moonroof, abs, traction control) @ $1,445

    Note: auto tranny was already included in the trim's starting MSRP

    MSRP = $17,689

    Please note that the Mazda price does not include the package that has abs, side air bags and side air curtains. This package would have added another $800 or so to the MSRP. Also note that the side air bags are standard on the Hyundai and that the side air bags and curtains are standard on the Kia as well as such little things as heated outside mirrors and extra controls for adjusting driver's seat height and lumbar support. To be fair, the Korean twins do not have audio and cruise controls on the steering wheel, and a CD changer is not available on either. I didn't really want the changer on the Mazda, but it comes packaged with the moonroof.

    So here I am again. The Hyundai is over $1700 less than the Mazda. I'm guessing the Hyundai dealers would cut a really good deal while the Mazda dealers would not be able to cut that great of a deal. I guess when the time comes, I'll have to approach the dealers with really good facts and figures in hand, drive the cars again, and then have some really serious thinking to do.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    Hope you feel better after the ranting. ;)

    How about this for a mini-rant: if you don't believe in ABS or side airbags for yourself, get them for the people who don't have a choice in the matter: your passengers. All of your driving skills won't help you one bit if your luck runs out, e.g. you are sitting at an intersection, packed between cars, and someone has a heart attack and drives his/her car right into the side of yours. Safety features like ABS and airbags and ESC aren't there because we use them every day. We hope we don't have to use them at all. But they can come in real handy if we do need them, if only for a split-second. They are like an insurance policy. (Let me guess--you don't believe in buying insurance, either--right?)

    I for one am really glad that ABS and side bags/curtains are becoming easily available in this class of cars, and thanks to companies like Honda and Hyundai are even becoming easily available and affordable in the sub-$16k class. Enjoy the lack of side bags/curtains while you can. Thanks to the IIHS and their tough side impact test, I predict they will be standard on all cars in this class--maybe even all cars period--within five years.
  • You ain't "cheap". Just frugal with your hard earned money (assuming no money tree out back). :)

    Don't know why you are just comparing each of the models MSRP to MSRP. I'd really focus on that last paragraph of yours. You mention "cutting a deal". Who is going to do it, who is not. Isn't that reeeeeeeally the key when price is such a huge factor? Coming from a Mazda guy like me it's BIG when the local Zoomer dealership is lookin' at me with their hands tied behind their backs (rebate-wise) with Mary the Mazda in tow (trade-in), while the Korean competitors down the street are saying "Come on down! You're the next contestant on name your price!"

    Aside from that, look at the markets inner workings right now. Those 3's are STILL hot. IOW, crowd mentality is keeping that price up, supply relatively low AND dealer attitude somewhat...dull, as in NOT willing to "cut" the deal. OTOH, Elantra, being the old and outdated yet still reliable competitor has no one on the lot kickin' it's tires.

    Hmmmm...personally, I hope these market conditions maintain themselves another month or so. ;)
  • I'm not ready to go out and deal yet. I'm just in the looking stages right now. I have to wait for some circumstances that are beyond my control at present. When I am seriously ready to purchase, I'll be seeing the dealers again armed with Edmunds' price guides and/or Consumer Reports Price Guides. Then we will see who actually cuts the best deal. If the guys at Mazda can give me a really good deal, well then I'll have a Mazda sitting in the drive. It's pretty much gonna depend on who can do what.
  • 1. Yeah, I've heard about the front spoiler problem on the Spectra5. It is something I'm keeping in mind. I've read that a few people have asked the dealer to take the spoiler off before they take delivery, but I'm not sure how the car would look without it.

    2. On a tire forum, I asked the resident expert what his thoughts were for replacement tires on the Elantra. He said he would go with Bridgestone Turanzas. Just thought you might like to know. Do you know if a dealer will do any price adjustments for tires? Like if you ask them to take the OEM tires off the car and that you will bring replacement tires to be put on the car????? Would they be willing to reduce the car price at all????
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    Don't know why you addressed the Spectra5 spoiler problem to me... I haven't mentioned it.

    On tires, the Turanzas are probably very good but I am extremely happy with the performance and value from the Kumhos. I have heard of dealers giving some reimbursement from turning in the *new* OEM tires for replacements--I know of someone who did that with his brand-new Prius, for example. But this is off topic, so I won't elaborate.
  • smariasmaria Posts: 279
    Good point, thanks for posting your opinion.

    I totally agree with you on your clothing comments. I never pay extra money for a brand name, actually I prefer NOT to have a brand name on my clothes. I don't want to be a free walking advertisement for a clothing manufacturer (shouldn't they be paying me for raising their level of brand-awareness?). With clothing, I often don't see a correlation between quality and price, so I tend to buy clothes that are on the cheaper side.

    All of this, and still the Mazda3 was on the top of my car shopping list. The reason is simple: I went out for test drives, and I felt a world of difference between the Mazda3 and the other cars I test drove. For me, the Mazda3 was the most fun to drive, felt solidly put together, and handled securely on the road. Personally, I didn't sense any sort of intangible "brand-name markup" on the Mazda3. Its price, to me, seemed to adequately reflect it's level of options and performance...very tangible features.

    No matter how "cheap" someone is, they're usually willing to pay a little more for something that they percieve as being a better product (better in reliability, better in safety, something that you simply "like more", etc.). If you don't perceive brand-name clothing to be a better product than cheaper clothing, why pay more for it? The same with cars. But, if someone likes the Mazda3 much more than any other car, and will enjoy owning it much more than any other car (for whatever reason), then it might be worth extra money as long as it's still affordable. If there's really no substantial preference either way, by all means the buyer should go for the cheaper car...why pay more for something that you don't care about? This is where personal preference is a huge factor.
  • smith20smith20 Posts: 256
    But, if someone likes the Mazda3 much more than any other car, and will enjoy owning it much more than any other car (for whatever reason), then it might be worth extra money as long as it's still affordable. If there's really no substantial preference either way, by all means the buyer should go for the cheaper car...why pay more for something that you don't care about? This is where personal preference is a huge factor.

    Exactly. The cost differences between the cars (simplifying this by saying we're all equal at negotiating) from one consumer to another is fixed, but the utility and personal enjoyment varies widely from one person to the next. Yet, we all debate our points based on our particular and highly variable utility, person preference, and driving enjoyment evaluations, which is why threads like this go on, and on, and on, and on . . . :)

    Someone in this discussion said to them the 3 was 95% of a car costing twice enough, so it is easy to see why they bought the Mazda3. For my wife and I, an Elantra was 90% (just made up but it makes the point) of a Mazda3, which is close enough to being equal. Thus, in our view of the cars being "equal" we ended up purchasing the cheaper of the two cars.
  • I think we all first and foremost try to figure out what is within our budget. I, for instance, took a passing glance at an Audi A4, but knowing the general price range on the car, I didn't look long. I knew it would be completely out of my range and therefore never really considered it. So, I started looking at the cars available in what I thought was my price range. All things considered, all the cars that have been talked about whether it is Honda, Toyota, Mazda, Hyundai, Kia, Ford, VW, etc., can all be had with roughly the same equipment and withing a certain price range. This is where the "personal preference" that smaria talked about comes into play. First we look at the exterior and what inspires us. I ruled out the Hondas, Toyotas, etc, because they just didn't talk to me. There was something about the way they looked that didn't excite me. Next comes the interior. Again, do I like what I see in there? Finally comes the test drive. Which car feels right for me when I drive it. Is the driving position comfortable for me? Does it feel like it would be comfortable on a trip? Can I reach the pedals, steering wheel, other controls without having to reach too far or strain? Is the layout of the controls nice to my eyes? Does it have the responsiveness that I want? Does the steering feel right for me? Does it handle the way I would like and the way I feel I will be able to control the vehicle.? All of these things, as smaria stated, are personal preferences. For each one of us, one of the final factors is how does each car look, feel, smell, taste, and sound to me. Then we have to make a decision as to whether we, PERSONALLY, feel that one car, IN OUR EYES, stands above the other finalists we have picked. If it is a higher priced model than the others, do our little minds tell us that it is worth the extra money. Smaria is correct that even though we may try to buy things as cheaply as possible, when something makes us feel that the quality may be better, then we tend to ante up the extra $$$$$ (including me). The gentleman from Minnesota is a good example. I think he was in this forum. He didn't think the Mazda3 was a viable candidate for him, but after driving the car he changed his mind and is now the proud owner of a Mazda3. This could yet happen in my case. I can't think of anyone who just goes into a dealer and says "I want to buy one of these" without looking at it and driving it. When everything is said and done, which cars any of us do or don't like boils down to two things.....which car inspires us the most and which car best fits into our budget.

    Backy, sorry. I attributed a statement about the Spectra5's front spoiler breaking off easily to you. Obviously, it was someone else who noted the problem and commented on it.

    Finally, to each and everyone of you who has contributed to this forum, go out there and find the car that YOU like the best.....and have a ton of fun driving it.
  • Budget 16k - 20k
    4 Cyl with atleast 30+ highway mileage
    Living in the northeast with freezing rain - ABS /TCS

    Test Road
    Accord LX 5 speed : Liked everything except when i tryed to merge on the highway with 3 people me/wife/nephew/sales women - less say that ended it ....

    Altima : Great car butwith a 5 speed i get no option and abs/tcs knocked the car to 23k

    Camry : Did not like the loose driving feedback - personal perference

    Mazda 6i - 5speed manual with abs/tcs for 18k cannot be beat .mine
    came with the 6 cd changer boss,moonroof and paid 18,600 + TTL

    I am happy have 100 miles on my car and really like it
  • ctalkctalk Posts: 646
    Isn't this a Compact Sedan thread?

    The cars you listed are all mid-size sedans. Try this thread Midsize Import Sedans Comparison Thread

    Accord LX 5 speed : Liked everything except when i tryed to merge on the highway with 3 people me/wife/nephew/sales women - less say that ended it ....

    Disagree with you here, the Accord's inline4 is one of the best out there (and has had a lot of praise from reviewers) The Altima's I find is very loud and not as refined as the Accords. The Camry's feels underpowered. The Mazda 6 is ok. Question: Did you test all the cars with me/wife/nephew/sales women inside? Or just the Accord.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    Accord LX doesn't have the TCS that was on the shopping list.

    Technically, the Elantra and Spectra are mid-sized cars, yet Edmunds.com is fine with including them in this discussion. The lines get real blurry sometimes. Like the fact I can buy a nicely-equipped Mazda6 at my local dealer for less than the smaller Mazda3 with the same engine. Or the fact that there is no trim line of the Elantra, Forenza, or Spectra sedans that lists for over $16k, unless you load them up with options. Blurry, blurry. :confuse:
  • I am not sure about the accord i did own the 2001 which i traded in after a trip to the moutains as i kept pulling it from D to 3 with 5 guys in the car.
    Hence i concluded that a stick is the only wayto go with 4 cyclinder but the 05s here are run out and 06 knocked the price out the 20k mark.

    Mazda 6 i rode with the same group -sales women but added my sister with A/C.....not bad....

    But the accord had the best stick shift ...it was awesome but the 6 close but the moonroof and other additions tilted the balance + 3500$ rebate from invoice
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Ctalk was right when he suggested this conversation move to the Midsize Import Sedan Comparison discussion. That's where we are talking about the vehicles on your mind, not here.

    See you there!
  • Did you every drive a Mini Cooper either the regular model or the S. Try it if you think the Mazda 3 is fun
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