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Scion MPG-Real World Numbers

1679111217

Comments

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,855
    that makes sense, thanks for posting it. Interesting.

    MODERATOR

  • I also asked whether premium fuel made any more power by avoiding the knock sensor at full throttle load, and received this reply:

    Scion Customer Experience Discussion Thread
    Scion xB horsepower and torque [Incident: 060901-000071]
    From: Scion
    Response (Vernon)09/06/2006 04:09 PM
    "… The vehicle is engineered and tested using 87 octane fuel. We recommend that fuel for optimum performance, reliability, and fuel economy on the vehicle. The vehicle does make the same power at maximum throttle position on 87 octane as it would on higher octane fuel."

    Furthermore, if Toyota thinks premium fuel will increase performance, they will say so in the Owners Manual, which the xB manual does not say.

    From the 2006 Tacoma Owners Manual:
    "OCTANE RATING
    2TR- FE engine - Select Octane Rating 87 (Research Octane Number 91) or higher.
    1GR- FE engine - Select Octane Rating 87 or higher. For improved vehicle performance, use premium unleaded gasoline with an Octane Rating of 91 or higher."

    (Note: the 2TR-FE is the 2.7L I-4 and 1GR-FE is the 4.0L V-6)

    While I believe there must be a theoretical power penalty for the xB's knock sensor retarding ignition under full throttle on 87 octane, Toyota does not admit in the manual the possibility of more performance on higher octane, either because it is insignificant, or because they do not want to associate a low powered economy car with premium fuel, or both. Whatever, I am not going to use premium any more.
  • My new xA got 34.7 mpg on its third tank of gas. This was with a mix of city/highway driving and with the A/C on maybe a third of the time.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    . There was no change to the 2006 engine to cause the reduced power and torque.

    Yes there WAS a change for the 2006 cars - and the answer is right here on Edmunds

    The answer?

    In other news, the xB's horsepower rating drops from 108 to 103 due to new SAE testing procedures.

    See, they just test now using difference standards - same actual power, lower rating for 06.

    Premium contains additives to prevent pre-ignition and since we buy gas by the gallon, that means a gallon of premium contains less "gas" than a gallon of regular. If your car is not designed (or changed) to run on premium then you are just wasting your money pumping in anything over the minimum.

    Gas is high, but premium has a "premium" price - around here $0.30 or more per gallon more and at today's pump price this is about a 12% up-charge (the percentage gets less the higher the gas, today regular was around $2.50). So even IF premium "worked" it would have to produce 12% more MPGs just to break even. So if you get 30mpg around town you have to get 33.6mpg to break even and more to really save money. Even if you delude yourself you will not get that much better :D

    Dennis
  • There was an actual 5 HP drop in power due to the inclusion of the power steering pump, according to Scion:

    Scion xB horsepower and torque [Incident: 060901-000071]
    From: Scion
    Response (Vernon) 09/01/2006 03:04 PM
    We appreciate your inquiry. The difference in the xB's horsepower rating from 2005 to 2006 is reflective of revised testing standards for horsepower set forth by the SAE. The engine design, engineering, and fuel used remains unchanged. The difference is due to the fact that previous testing for horsepower from engines did not include the parasitic drag associated with the operation of a power steering pump. The SAE revised their testing standards to test with a power steering pump operating with the engine.

    The amount of additives to increase octane is negligible. I have some bottles of now illegal tetraethyl lead to raise the octane for my old bike engines, and the ratio for 98 octane is 1/2 ounce per gallon.

    Scion says this about fuel for the xB:

    Scion xB horsepower and torque [Incident: 060901-000071]
    From: Scion
    Response (Vernon) 09/06/2006 04:09 PM
    … The vehicle is engineered and tested using 87 octane fuel. We recommend that fuel for optimum performance, reliability, and fuel economy on the vehicle. The vehicle does make the same power at maximum throttle position on 87 octane as it would on higher octane fuel.
  • I have a 2006 xB 5-speed. I keep a spreadsheet showing date, odometer reading, tripmeter reading, gallons bought, mpg, and type of driving.

    From 3,000 to 6,000 miles I used 93 octane and the overall average was 35.0 mpg. The low mpg was 23 on a racetrack, and the high mpg was 42.8 on a 250-mile 60 mph Interstate trip, holding the speed very steady with no tie-ups or stops.

    I went from 6,000 to 8,500 miles last week on a trip that included slow and fast Interstate driving from Louisville to New Hampshire, plus 2-lane mountain driving in the states of PA, NH and VT. During the 2,500 miles I used both 93 and 87 octane under various conditions. The overall average was 35.2 mpg, with a high of 36.5 mpg on regular Interstate driving and a low of 32.8 on fast Interstate driving. I could not tell any difference in either mpg or power between 93 and 87 octane.

    The xB struggled on mountain grades, often requiring 4000 rpm in 4th gear to maintain 60 mph. But the rest of the mountains were fun due to the xB's willing engine and gearbox, and its handling.

    On flat Interstates it could cruise easily with much power to spare at 4000 rpm in 5th at an indicated 80 mph (74 mph according to the ECU as displayed on a ScanGuage). For the trip I had bought and installed a Rostra cruise control, which was welcome on the long Interstate stretches. I was also glad I had changed to SensaTrac rear shocks immediately after delivery, to smooth the ride.

    It was an enjoyable trip, and the xB made every mile fun. It was also not so comfortable as to cause sleep. It is the only car I have never felt sleepy in.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,855
    Thanks for that great report. Your figures sound very realistic and reasonable.

    Was the cruise control difficult to install?

    MODERATOR

  • I bought the Rosta cruise control online from AllScion. Studied the printed and PDF instruction, and the installation threads on ScionLife.com. Removed my strut bar to make installation easier. Did a dry run and felt the installation would technically be no more difficult than the fog lights I had installed, but would take 3-4 hours intead of 1 hour. However, I felt I could not work under the dash that much. I am too old, tall and stiff, and bifocals could not look upward and see connections 4 inches from my face. So I went to the place that installs for the dealers here, and they charged $150 and did it in an hour while I waited.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,855
    Yeah, I hate under-dash work too. I've seen that unit from AllScion. Might improve fuel mileage enough to pay for itself in a few years?

    I hit my highest mileage thus far (12,500 miles) at 39 mpg. Drove the whole day up and down the coast for $12.88. Gotta love it.

    MODERATOR

  • Cruise control helps mileage for those who have the tendency to unwittingly get on and off the throttle. I have driven with people like that. But I don't see cruise control as an economy thing because it might never pay for itself. My best 42.8 mpg on the Interstate was before I had cruise control, maybe because I did not try to maintain speed up hills as cruise control would. I got cruise control for trips just so I could leave my right foot off the throttle for a long time and rest it.
  • Nice report on the cruise control addition. I have 49k on my 05 auto XB and would like to add it on to ease my 112 mile daily commute. My problem in this area is finding an independent shop to install it. The shops that I've contacted didn't want to perform the addition and could not give me the name of a shop that will install it. I guess I'll get back on the phone Monday morning and give it another go. I finally wore out the stock Goodyear Eagles with 39k on them and 3/32nds of tread left. They may have lasted another 2 months until I put the snows on but there was no wet grip left. I put on a set of Falken Ziex's and what an amazing difference. Smoother, crisper cornering and handling are the result. I also went up a size to 195 60 15. The gas mileage that I measured at fillup was 32.14 mpg. Not too bad I'd say for running at up to 80 on the interstates. The Falken's make the commute that much more comfortable and relaxing, and I recommend them to all XB owners. BTW, who has the highest odometer reading on their XB to date?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    You are correct - folks that drive like that (I call them "paddle foot") lose money at the pump and really annoy me on the road. Ever have the same car pass you 10-15 times on one trip? They keep slowing down, you pass them, then they speed back up, etc, etc.

    While it can help those folks with MPGs what the "hypermilers" do is to NOT try to hold a steady speed - they hold a steady throttle position so that they slow down up a hill (sometimes a LOT) and coast down the hills. You don't want to be in traffic with them either, since to maximize MPGs they can be really slow up the hill and really fast down it. They also will draft off of trucks to save gas. They can report some fantastic mileage, but you don't want to be on the road with them either :D

    Dennis
  • aathertonaatherton Posts: 617
    "... My problem in this area is finding an independent shop to install it. The shops that I've contacted didn't want to perform the addition and could not give me the name of a shop that will install it. I guess I'll get back on the phone Monday morning and give it another go..."

    I ordered my cruise control from AllScion:
    http://www.allscion.com/cruisecontrol.html
    The cruise control kits are made by Rostra, who wholesales them to a big automotive distributor. AllScion (and competitor M&R) send your order to the distributor who ships directly to you. AllScion was very good about notifiying me when my order was shipped and answering a few questions.
    During shipment AllScion contacts Rostra, the mfr, and locates the nearest installer to you, and emails you.
    AllScion first gave me the name of a place in a city 80 miles away, and when I checked the company through the BBB it was unsatisfactory. I asked for a place in my city, and they came back with an excellent company that had done 75 Scion cruise control installations in the past 3 years for the 3 dealers in town. And they were members of BBB with an excellent record. They installed the cruise control for $150, using 2 people in an hour while I waited.
  • aathertonaatherton Posts: 617
    "... what the "hypermilers" do is to NOT try to hold a steady speed - they hold a steady throttle position so that they slow down up a hill (sometimes a LOT) and coast down the hills. You don't want to be in traffic with them either, since to maximize MPGs they can be really slow up the hill and really fast down it. They also will draft off of trucks to save gas. They can report some fantastic mileage, but you don't want to be on the road with them either..."

    I sometimes get in line with a truck that doesn't go over the speed limit. Its varying speeds in hilly country are good for max economy in the xB, without bothering other cars, and I can stay with it downhill.

    Drafting is not good, as you have to get extremely close. The trucker can't see you, you can't tell when he might suddenly slow, and you get the grit that is kicked up whenever the trailer wheels weave out of the swept track. You can't feel it in a car, but on a motorcycle there is a lot of side buffeting behind a truck until you get within about 2 carlengths, when the sudden lack of wind resistance feels like a push from behind and you have to back off the throttle. If the temperature is chilly, you can also feel the warmth from the big engine ahead.
  • Thanks for the allscion info on the cruise control unit. I'm off on Monday and I'll check them out in the morning after I change the XB's oil. Walmart had fully synthetic Penzoil on sale for 17 bucks for the 5 quart size. Mobil 1 was $22.97 for the same size and probably same oil. Why is it that synthetic oil prices are rising? They don't contain petroleum but have risen with the price of gas and regular oil.
  • aathertonaatherton Posts: 617
    Since July Pep Boys has had Pennzoil Platinum (full synthetic) on sale for $2/quart, down from almost $6/quart. They put a store coupon in the paper that reduces what you pay at the counter, then you send the receipt to Pep Boys rebate center and they issue a rebate check. I have bought a 6-pack in July, August, September and now have a coupon for October.
    Pennzoil differentiates their oil from other synthetics by saying it has "time-released molecules"...
    http://www.pennzoil.com/products/motor_oil/platinum.html
  • My XB just cracked the 54000 mile barrier. The mileage for the last tank was 32.7 mpg in mostly crazed commuting combined with the standard Wash.,DC metro stop and go crud. Highway speeds up to 80 mph for extended periods of open road (you have to make time when you can) with no issues. The 195 60 15 Falken's seem to lower the mpg by about 1.5 mpg compared with the OEM Goodyear 185 60 15's, but the ride quality and handling are better. In another month I'll put the 4 snow tires back on anyway.
  • How does your xb have cruise control? I thought it was NOT available??
  • OOOPS! PLease ignore #265. I found my answer in the previous messages.
  • Bought an Xa in April. Averaged around 29 around town, now down to 24. Best highway was 34, now 28. Dealer says nothing he can do. It seems like some get great mileage and others don't. Dealer says unless engine light on don't bother bringing it in. After reading these posts, it seems that there is a problem for the Scion but not all Scions.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,855
    Hmmm...that's about the worst I ever heard. Tell me, do you keep the heater control on the defrost setting quite a bit? Have you checked your tire pressure?

    is this a stickshift or automatic?

    MODERATOR

  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Did you mean 5,400 miles or 54,000 miles?

    If 54,000:

    At what point did you replace the OEM tires? What did you put on? Checked the tire pressures lately? Changed the air filter?

    Often the car makers pick the OEM tires based on low rolling resistance and low noise (makes for good economy numbers and better test drives). A better or different replacement tire may hurt mileage a bit, but properly inflated even the worst rolling tire would not drop it that much.

    If 5,400:

    Check the tire pressures and note how you are driving the car. If the pressures are OK and you are not driving around at wide-open-throttle I would say you have a problem.

    Most cars get better mileage as they age and wear in, up to a point.

    Dennis
  • There is no problem. The cars are all the same, but the drivers and the driving conditions are different. The mpg is highly responsive to how and where you drive. I calculate the mpg at each filling, so I have a good idea of what driving and what conditions cause each mpg.

    I am generally a gentle driver, but once took the car on a race track, so with my manual xB I have seen as high as 42 and as low as 24. Many trips were 37. Last summer it usually got 34 around the city, but now with winter it has fallen below 30.
    I am not tempted to complain to the dealer because I know:
    1. Cold starts begin with the engine at 30F instead of 80F. I can see temperatures on my ScanGuage.
    2. It takes twice the distance to get the blue light off (137F), meanwhile the engine must run rich.
    3. On short multi-errand hops the engine never reaches its operating temperature (186F) before I stop. All morning can be spent never getting over 160F.
    4. I have given up trying to get good mpg in winter, and am using the throttle for more fun, which further reduces mpg.
  • Sorry to hear about your lower gas mileage. Have you tried a fuel system cleaner? I throw one in every 7k miles. Try to vary where you buy gas. Some oil companies are adding ethynol to their mix. Ethynol will lower mileage on most cars. Also the oil companies send their famous "winter blend" gas out to states in the northern climates that is filled with a host of chemical additives. My father-in-laws Chrysler runs poorly all winter long on the stuff and his "check engine" light comes on until spring, and has occurred for the last 5 years with his car.
    Also, I run synthetic oil in mine and run my tire pressures at 32-34 psi. Good luck.
  • My '05 XB has 54,000 yes 54,000 miles on it. The OEM Goodyear's lasted about 34,000 miles before I replaced them. I'm not sure of the total miles because I run 4 dedicated snows in the winter and did not check the miles with I made the swap. They still had tread left but were getting a little "squirrely" in wet conditions.

    I replaced the OEM's with Falken ZX 512's in 195 60 15 size. The wider tire slightly lowers the MPG but really shines in the grip, ride, and handling areas. I run them at 32-34 psi. They have good reviews from both Tirerack.com and Consumer Reports. I also run synthetic oil and change the air filter every 10,000 miles.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    The 195 60 15 Falken's seem to lower the mpg by about 1.5 mpg compared with the OEM Goodyear 185 60 15's,

    You may be getting about the same mileage. If the larger tires are larger in circumference, they will travel a little farther with each revolution. The odometer and speedometer are most likely measuring speed by the revolution of standard size tires. This is probably measured at the transmission output shaft. The measuring device has no idea what size tire you are running.

    Example if std tires are showing 50 mph at a given rpm, the larger tires will show the same speed at the same rpm. Even though they are actually rolling a bit farther.

    NOTE: You will also be going faster than indicated by your speedometer.

    You can get a rough idea by checking your odometer against say 10 miles of mile markers. Sixty mph equals a mile a minute. Chances are good that if you run exactly 60 mph for the 10 miles you will cover the distance in less than 10 minutes and show 9+ miles driven instead of 10 miles.

    Although the mile markers may be off a few feet, 10 miles worth will give you a good indicator.

    Kip
  • Thanks Kip for the info and you must be psychic. My neighbor and I discussed the issue and he provided the exact info that you did in your post!! I calculate every tank and I thought it may be due to the wider tires and less rolling resistance of the Falkens. My neighbor said I may be getting the same mpg but the speedo is off due to wider tires. But with the colder weather here in the DC area my mileage has been down to just a shade over 30 mpg. I believe the fuel additives are to blame coupled with the colder weather. I don't know the ethynol content of the fuel in this area but I know several drivers who are having the same issues. Today, on my commute the weather is warm (64 degrees) and my mileage seems to be higher. I'll post on my mpg when I fill up.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 44,855
    Here's a tire calculator that will tell you exactly how much off your speedo might be. If this "new" version doesn't show up on your screen, click on "old version"

    http://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html

    MrShiftright
    Host

    MODERATOR

  • Thanks Host. The old version of the calculator worked for me. I pasted into my favorites for future reference. According to the calculator, when the speedo shows 60 mph, I'm really ay 61 mph. I'll have to figure out the drop in mileage for the new, wider tires.
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