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Acura TSX Lease Questions

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Comments

  • cpa3cpa3 Posts: 88
    John,

    Enjoyed reading and going through your calculations. Not sure what your question was but here is what I came up with. The $2499 includes $309 + $595 + $1595. The $595 is Hondas Lease Fee (not negotiable). They charge this on all leases. There is no security deposit in their current offering.As you had said the $309 is the first payment and the $1595 is the cap reduction.

    I also agree with your rate of .00185 which equates to 4.4%, not as good as the 2.9% rate for purchase however. Using the .00185 I came up with a monthly pmt of $308.91.

    I am really interested in the TL. But it looks like to me that rate is .003 or 7.2%, not quite as good as the TSX. IMO the current lease rates are not that great. They have been better during the last year.
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    cpa3,

    I didn't have a question. I was simply writing some commentary ( posts #393&#394) in response to confused13's #390 post. If you read my post #393, you'll discover that I cut and pasted AHFC's current lease offer for the Acura TSX. It states, in part,...

    Offer valid through: 9/4/2007
    FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (Model CL9688JW) for $309.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,595.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, security deposit, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    ___________________________________________________________________

    Note that the $2499 does include a security deposit. AHFC rounds security deposits to the next whole $25. And so, one can reasonably conclude that the acq. fee amounts to $270...

    2499 = 309 + 325 + 1595 + 270

    I had erroneously stated $275 in a previous post. I had also commented that this seems quite low. And so, the $270 acq. fee seems very peculiar to me. No matter, consumers should hold AHFC accountable for a $270 acq. fee because it is crystal clear that's what the Ad implies.

    I'm fed up with the on-going mistakes that this industry makes. There are many dealerships and lease software vendors that make mistakes when calculating leases; especially, sign and drive leases where the first payment is being capitalized. Payments and sales tax are often calculated incorrectly particularly in those states (e.g., Ohio) that compute sales tax on the total payments. One software developer agreed and said that they would amend their software. That was last December. To date, they have yet to amend their software. Hmmmm.

    Inappropriate or skewed computations only serve to justify the rationale for incorporating standard computational methods in the Federal Reserve Bank Board’s Regulation M paralleling those of its Regulation Z cousin. I know that an APR is meaningless except for purposes of amortizing leases that use the constant yield or actuarial method but money factors or lease interest rates should be disclosed. Although few fund providers use it anymore, the antiquated Rule of 78's should be discarded. Some fund providers use interest rates like GMAC to compute payments. I believe that Ford Motor Credit used interest rates to construct, what they called, Acquisition and Lease End Value factors. GMAC called them Capfactors and Resfactors...

    Payment = CapCost x CapFactor - Residual x ResFactor

    In the last revision to Reg. M (1998?), the FRBB sided with the NADA, NVLA, etc., lobbyists in making the ridiculous claim that such disclosures as money factors would only "confuse" consumers. That's crap and is both presumptuous and insulting. I'm not confused and many others aren't confused either. That's just a poor excuse for non-disclosure in an effort to keep people ignorant. What's so shameful is that I know more about leasing mathematics than most in this industry. I teach mathematics part-time at a local university and used to be a practicing actuary. And so, I'm very familiar with financial mathematics.

    I'm still anxious to learn the TSX money factor for August. I assume that the money factor used to compute the Ad's $309 payment is the buy rate (i.e., without reserves).

    John
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,851
    I'm pretty sure in this case that the lease does not require a security deposit, even though that wording is included in the fine print. Note that the amount of the security deposit isn't given. I think that amount is $ZERO. It's possible they calculated the lease with the security deposit waiver bump added to the money factor (extra .00010).

    The acquisition fee is always $595.

    $309 + $1595 + $595 = $2499

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    kyfdx,

    I appreciate your comments. However, we as consumers aren't mind readers and so, AHFC needs to be held accountable and responsible for their Ads. If I were leasing a TSX, I would hold them to a $270 acquisition fee. I'm absolutely convinced that I was the reason why they changed the wording on their Ads from one year ago. See my post #394.

    When you're in business and you make a mistake, you eat the mistake. I'm sick of people in this business making tons and tons of mistakes. I see them an awful lot especially on sign and drive leases.

    John
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,851
    I don't see it that way.. The ad does not say that the security deposit is $325. It also doesn't say that the acquisition fee is $270.

    You can either read their mind, or you can't. ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    kyfdz,

    No mind reading necesssary. Look at my posts #393 and #394. One can conclude that the acquisition fee is $270. The Ad CLEARLY STATES...

    Offer valid through: 9/4/2007
    FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (Model CL9688JW) for $309.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,595.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, security deposit, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    Look at the BOLDED words above. They suggest the following...

    2499 = 309 + 325 + 270 + 1595.

    I agree that the Ad does NOT specifically state that the security and acquisition are $325 and $270, respectively. However, it is IMPLIED. This seems clear to me and it should be clear to anyone reading this Ad. As far as I know, AHFC routinely rounds payments w/tax to the NEXT whole $25 to determine the security deposit. Here, as the Ad suggests, we're excluding taxes. In fact, unless waived, this Ad suggests that Floridians would pay a security deposit of $325 because there is no state sales tax in Florida.

    I agree that security deposits are often waived in exchange for a MF bump; this Ad, however, in no way suggests that this is the case. This Ad is based on an MF of about 0.00185. I'm anxious to see the published money factor.

    Are you associated with AHFC or a Honda/Acura dealership in some way?

    John
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,851
    You want to hold Acura to an ad, as though it's a financial contract, and yet, you assume many, many things not printed in the ad. It just doesn't work that way.

    I don't have the whole ad in front of me, but I'm sure there is a phrase something like, "Requires dealer contribution, which may vary". In other words, this is just a possible example. It's an advertisement, not a contract. I would assume they have lawyers to look those things over.

    On another note, just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they have a stake in the argument. Why would you think I work for Honda or Acura?

    I would have thought you would have noticed the "HOST" next to my name. No fine print necessary.. lol. ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    Walt,

    Wow, you sure have been around the block quite a bit, haven't you? I NEVER thought you worked for Honda or Acura. I was merely ASKING. PLEASE READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY.

    I'm well aware that this is NOT a contract. I'm also well aware that court awards have been made on representations made in advertisements. Furthermore, I'VE ASSUMED NOTHING. I have a PhD in mathematics and statistics and am very skilled in logical argument. The Ad CLEARLY states that it INCLUDES a security deposit. One can rationally draw valid conclusions based on the rhetoric contained in this clause and this clause alone. The other parts of the Ad are IRRELEVANT. If you get a chance, look at the entire Ad.

    I've served as a certified expert witness in cases involving both Reg. M and Z and so, yes, I would hold AHFC (not necessarily Acura) accountable. And, why did their lawyers approve changes in some of the wording from one year ago (see posts #393/#394)? I can tell you that I had something to do with it.

    John
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    1) I leased an Acura TSX today.
    2) kyfdx was totally correct, Acura is willing to waive the security deposit. Bank fee is 595. :)
    3) That said, they will honor the advertised deal - but you can do better with some simple negotiating
    4) delta/john i'm not sure why you are being so rude to one of our gracious hosts, who is only trying to help. By asking if he worked for Honda you implied that he was not to be trusted. You can make your little semantic argument if you want, but we all know what you meant.
    5) your understanding of what qualifies as misrepresentation in an advertisement (which is not an offer) is misleading others on these boards. Just because an ad says something does not make it written in stone, nor does the fact that it is mistaken in some way make it a misrepresentation automatically.
    6) I am, in fact, a lawyer.

    just ease up a little, were all trying to help each other here, not make kyfdx and carman wonder why they do this for free... ;)
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    Now, to help everyone else, I got a 2008 TSX (non-Nav) today in NJ.

    Here was my negotiated deal:

    MSRP: 28800
    Invoice: 26585
    Price: 27040 (~450 over invoice)
    Residual: 63% for 12K miles (64% for 10K, 61% for 15K)
    MF: .00185
    Bank fee: 595
    Document fee: 189
    NJ registration: 245

    Total down: first month + NJ fees + doc fee = about 800
    I rolled the bank fee... security was waived.
    Monthly payment was 373.

    I should note that this was with Tier 1 (super preferred, whatever they want to call it :) ) credit.

    Hope that helps some people.
    kyfdx and carman, keep up the good work! :shades:
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    apz4,

    I'm not being, as you say, rude. And, if I was perceived as being rude, then please accept my sincerest apology. I'm sure that AHFC is willing to waive the security deposit but that was never the issue. The issue was whether or not they have a security deposit and, according to the Ad, they do indeed. At least, the Ad leads one to believe that they do. Another issue dealt with the acquisition fee. The Ad IMPLIES that it's $270 not $595 and I would expect them to honor it.

    From my perspective, the Ad is NOT mistaken. It means EXACTLY what it says whether intended or unintended. It's hard to argue with rhetoric. And, yes, a misrepresentation can be intentional or unintentional and can be the result of a mistake. Therefore, a mistake can misrepresent the true facts whether intended or unintended.

    I have no reason to believe that AHFC would intentionally mislead anyone. If, in fact, they didn't make a mistake, then the acq. fee is something different than $595. The only way the acq. fee can be $595 is for the words "security deposit" to be REMOVED FROM THE RELEVANT PORTION OF THE AD which is quite apart different than waiving it altogether.

    2499 = 309 + 595 + 1595

    That's like AHFC saying.... whoops, in order to collect the $595 acq fee, we'll just have to waive the sec. dep. so that the above equation is preserved. I say... oh no, I'll pay the sec dep plus a $270 acquisition fee as the Ad implies or suggests; mistaken or otherwise.

    It's just not good business to craft an Ad and then claim... well, it's not a contract and so we're not liable for whatever we say in an Ad. That's baloney.

    John

    PS: Regarding my question concerning whether Walt worked for Honda/Acura. I meant nothing by it, so please, don't draw falacious inferences or erroneous conclusions. YOU don't know me so don't pretend that you do. "WE ALL know what you meant"???... That's very presumptuous. You have no clue what was on my mind and neither does anyone else. Attorneys often make something out of nothing and create problems where there aren't any. And, as for doing work for free, I do it quite often and NEVER complain. I've been a big help to an awful lot of people in these forums that includes emailing articles I've written and I've been receptive to those wishing to send me personal emails. Read my posts and you can see for yourself.
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    delta/John,

    I in no way intend to start a flame war, and my intent is not to insult you. I have read your other posts and you clearly have a full understanding of statistics. However, you are making statements about the law that are not fully correct, probably similarly to what I would do if I started talking about statistics. :)

    Misrepresentation generally...
    First, a false statement is only one requirement to legally prove misrepresentation. Second, an unintentional mistake is generally not actionable in the absence of negligence.

    Third, and this is the funny one, misrepresentation requires justifiable reliance on the person being deceived. As such, John/delta and I, and anyone else reading this thread, should already be aware that the ad has a "false" statement, and therefore we cannot reasonably rely on the ad. Sometimes being smart can hurt you. ;)

    Whether the ad is false...
    I have to disagree here as well because of a reasonable, but perhaps incorrect, assumption you are making. John, you have assumed a 325 security deposit. Logical, yes. But legally binding, no. A one month security deposit is simply the industry convention, not a legal requirement. AHFC could simply turn to you and say that the security deposit is $1 and the bank fee is $594. There is no requirement that they charge a full month deposit. Furthermore, if they waive the deposit, thus a $0 deposit, then the ad is still true... the 2499 includes the required security deposit.

    Ahhh, you might say, but the ad is still misleading... but, none of us know the breakdown of the 2499 until you get into the dealership. The problem is that you know you don't know the breakdown, thus it will be hard to prove that you were mislead. Your computations that back into the number are logical for sure, but legal proof of zippo, unfortunately.

    The biggest mistake people make, especially math/science types (myself included before law school), about the law is assuming that it is logical. How Stupid of you! (just teasing :) ) So, your statement, "From my perspective, the Ad is NOT mistaken. It means EXACTLY what it says whether intended or unintended. It's hard to argue with rhetoric." Well, not for a lawyer. :) You see, lawyers make the law illogical so we can charge more money. (I hope I’m teasing??? :confuse: )

    Even if we were to call the ad a legally binding offer, the second you start to negotiate price or any other term, all bets are off. Legally, at that point, you are making a counteroffer. Thus, even if your $275 bank fee was legally correct, the dealership/AHFC is under no obligation to transfer that fee to a different deal for the car at a lower price. You'd be better off negotiating 1000+ off the price and paying the full bank fee anyway...

    ...
    John/delta, on a personal note...

    "Regarding my question concerning whether Walt worked for Honda/Acura. I meant nothing by it, so please, don't draw falacious inferences or erroneous conclusions. YOU don't know me so don't pretend that you do. ... You have no clue what was on my mind and neither does anyone else. "

    It has nothing to do with whether I know you, or whether you actually meant what was implied. It is the reasonable and direct inference people will draw when one makes a statement like that. Especially when dispensing specialized knowledge, it is easy to come across as arrogant/rude on the internet when we cannot hear the tone of people's voices. I myself have been guilty of it on occasion. :blush:

    So, you didn't mean it that way, which is excellent. :) But when a recipient makes natural inferences on what appears on its face to be an aggressive statement, it is not the fault of the recipient. Just put a smiley on the end of a question like that and we'll all know you're kidding next time... :) oh, and btw, not once did I question your help to others... I simply asked that you not attack others that also help.

    -apz4 :shades:
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 29,851
    I didn't mean to start an argument (just finish one..lol).

    My only issue is that it's better to concentrate on what deal can actually be achieved, than to focus on the advertising. Not many of us could marshal the forces needed to hold a manufacturer to their advertising claims, even if we were attorneys. An ambiguous advertisement, with qualifiers in the fine print, at that.

    My attempt to clarify the ad was based on what I know about Acura/Honda leases.

    I considered the question about my allegiance to Honda/Acura to be humorous. After all, it says right at the top of the page: Consumer Driven

    No harm done.. anyway, this isn't my discussion, it belongs to Car_man.. ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    apz4,

    Your points are well taken. I'm not interested in litigation or legalities. I'm only interested in the reasonable man interpretation of what the Ad actually states. I won't debate this point any further other than to say let's just agree to disagree. Besides, I think it's rather petty and any concerns can be addressed with AHFC or the dealership. I'm reasonably confident that fair and honest treatment will prevail.

    I really appreciate your time taken to explain this issue from the legal perspective. I'm not an attorney but I have worked with them in the past as a certified expert witness in matters regarding the FRBB's Reg. M and Reg. Z.

    I do believe that lease rates (i.e., money factors, interest rates) should be disclosed. I'm not advocating the disclosure of an APR because it's usefulness is limited to determining outstanding lease balances in those instasnces where the actuarial or constant yield method is used. I'm also in favor of standardizing lease payment calculations. GMAC, for instance, does something very odd. They discount the residual one month nearer to the present and use the resulting "adjusted residual" to compute the lease payment. Ford Motor credit used to add 0.0011 to the capcost annuity factor to account for an acquisition fee. This meant that consumers would pay an additional $1.10 each month for every $1,000 of capitalized cost. Ford no longer does this. Instead, they charge a $595 acq. fee.

    Anyway, thanks for your comments and I'll try to watch what I say and how I say it.

    Best,

    John
    Medina, Ohio
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    John,

    I'm glad we could resolve it. I understand what you're saying from a business perspective, and I agree. I just didn't want a reader here to misunderstand what you were saying and think they could take an aggressive legal stance with the dealership. From a business perspective, you're right, these ads are ridiculous. They always leave out a key piece of information or two in order to obfuscate the money factor and/or the residual.

    "I do believe that lease rates (i.e., money factors, interest rates) should be disclosed. "
    I couldn't agree more.

    I think the other problem with leasing is that the salespeople typically (in my experience) have no clue what is going on with the numbers. It's rare that you find one that does. I almost always end up dealing with the finance manager, cause they're the only one at the dealership who truly understands leasing. In fact, the only dealership I've been to where the salespeople actually run the lease numbers is at BMW. And I'm not sure if that is a BMW thing, or just my dealership.

    "I'm also in favor of standardizing lease payment calculations. "
    Yes, or at least requiring that they be more transparent and fully explained. The other problem is taxes. The taxation of leases varies from straight forward, to complex, to IMO obscene (Illinois). I wish the fed would encourage the states to standardize their taxing practices because of the burden it places on interstate commerce in the buying/selling of lease rights.

    Now, we just need a lobbyist as powerful as the entire automotive industry... :cry:
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    apz4,

    I'm with you stride for stride. It's funny that you mention that you'll only deal with the finance manager. I, too, am the same way. I'll call the F&I person and request lease info (money factor, residual factor, acq. fee, etc) and then I'll create a one page lease proposal. Then, I'll FAX/email it to him or her. I have found that this has saved me lots of time, money, and aggravation.

    Once, I FAXED a sign and drive proposal and all the F&I guy could do was confirm my numbers. He said his software was not able to compute payments where the capitalized first payment exactly matched the remaining payments. He completed the lease agreement with the numbers from my proposal. When I arrived, I signed the papers and spent no more than 35 minutes at the dealership. Like you, I refuse to deal with sales people because they simply have no clue what a lease entails. Sales people will waste your time if you let them. So many of them are nothing more than order takers. Want fries with that?

    At any rate, I don't think we're going to solve these problems anytime soon. The best we can do is protect ourselves by being armed with knowledge because Knowledge = Power.

    Have a great day my good friend.

    John
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    kyfdx,

    I apologize for having asked the question. I didn't intend to be insulting or offensive. You've done an outstanding job in these forums and deserve much more respect. I'm glad you could see the humor.

    Best,

    John
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Hey bobw92. Acura pulled the plug on its special lease money factors for the 2007 TSX in August. If you want to lease an '07 TSX now, you have to use its standard lease program and the $1,000 regional cash incentive that is available on leases of this car through Honda Finance. This regional cash incentive is available in New Mexico.

    Acura introduced a new national special lease program on the 2008 TSX, featuring a buy rate lease money factor of .00185 for consumers who qualify for its "Super Preferred" credit tier.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Yes, revs1, the $1,000 lease cash that Acura is providing on the '07 TSX right now is available in Delaware.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Hi kidcloudkiker. Acura is no longer providing special lease money factors on the 2007 TSX. As a result, if you were to lease one through Honda Finance, you would have to use its standard lease program. Don't even bother with a 24 month lease using the standard program, its money factor is terrible... .00385 for "Super Preferred" customers compared to .00290 for 36 months. Honda Finance's current 36 month, 15,000 mile per year residual value for an '07 TSX without navigation is 56%. The residual value for a lease with only 12,000 miles per year would be 2% higher. When negotiating your lease on the 2007 TSX that you are interested in, make sure to take advantage of the $1,000 regional cash incentive that Acura is providing on leases of it through Honda Finance. This offer is available in Ohio.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Welcome confused13. Since you are new to the world of leasing, you definitely should check out the following informative articles that are available here at Edmunds.com prior to visiting any dealers: 10 Steps to Leasing a New Car and Calculate Your Own Lease Payment.

    You are right, the best way to get a good deal on a leased vehicle is to negotiate as low a selling price as possible. Once you arrive at a price that you are comfortable with, have the dealer that gives it to you calculate your lease payment using the buy rate lease money factor for the model that you want.

    Consumers can usually negotiate better deals on their own than the ones that are featured in manufacturers' advertised leases.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Hi pollofrito81. Acura's lease program on the 2007 TSX is the same in August as it was in July. However in late July it introduced a special program on the 2008 TSX. It is now providing a special lease money factor of .00185 for "Super Preferred" tier customers on the '08 model.

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Hi delta737h. The $2,499 that is due at lease signing breaks down as follows: $309 first month's payment + $595 acquisition fee + $1,595 capitalized cost reduction. The security deposit is being waived on this special lease promotion.

    Car_man
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  • I'm being told by a dealer here in the Dallas area that there is pretty much no dealing on selling price whatsoever on 2008 TSX with 6spd :( . Is this the case or am I being taken for a ride? :confuse:
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Congrats on getting your new TSX, apz4. It looks like you got a very good deal. Thanks for taking he time to share the details of your lease with everyone. It will be very helpful for others who are in the market. Don't forget to stop by the new Dealer Ratings & Reviews section of this site to share your thoughts on your recent dealer experience. Enjoy your new ride :shades: .

    Car_man
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  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,515
    Hi bnewton1. I have definitely seen consumers report getting pretty decent discounts on the 2008 TSX lately. I am not familiar with what the market is like for this particular model in your neck of the woods, but it wouldn't hurt to shop around to see if you can do better. You may want to try stopping by the following discussion to see how much others have reported paying for this car lately: "Acura TSX: Prices Paid & Buying Experience".

    Car_man
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    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • John, please email me a copy of your sample lease proposal. My email is masseygc@comcast.net. With your input, I think I am now (finally!) understanding the leasing "game", although I have one additional question on the ad you analyzed. The stated MSRP is $28,860 and the "Net Capitalized Cost" is $26,590 which is a difference of $2,270. However, the "Capitalized Cost Reduction" stated in the ad is only $1,595. What does the $675 difference represent? Is this a "discount" off the MSRP? Thanks for your help. I feel like I've done a good job of buying cars in the past, but I don't want to get hosed on a lease.
  • sharp2sharp2 Posts: 2
    Leased 2008 non/nav for 299/month (tax included )36 month 10k miles/year 2500.00 out of pocket.
  • I leased an 08 TSX black on black 6 speed manual;

    2k out of pocket
    15k miles @ 36 months
    352 a month.

    Superpreferred Rate and 61% residual, my math says i bought the car for about 500 over invoice which is ok with me being it was an 08 and they had many 07's still available. I take delivery today, I cant wait!
  • vinayg1vinayg1 Posts: 28
    Hi. Does anyone know whether in general Acura has better lease deals in August or in September.

    My current lease is getting over end of September. Ideally, I would like to wait till the lease is almost over (why pay for 2 cars?). But if historically, Acura does not have any good lease deals in September, then I might lease the new one a bit early.

    TIA for any help.
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