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Acura TSX Lease Questions

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Comments

  • bobw92bobw92 Posts: 11
    Car_man,

    I live in New Mexico
  • revs1revs1 Posts: 1
    hi car man--

    I'm looking to lease an '07 TSX w/o nav. Is the special $1,000 lease cash program available in Delaware???
  • I'm in Ohio looking to lease a 2007 TSX. Any info for the residual and money factor for the month of August on a 24 month, 12k and 15k mi lease? Also a 36 month, 12k and 15k mi lease? Thanks.
  • I am looking at a 2008 TSX w/Navi. They said $2500 down and $365 a month total (tax included) for a 36 month lease and 12k miles. Is this good? I haven't even started to deal or anything but they threw that at me as I was walking out the door. All advice is welcome!
  • teddyohteddyoh Posts: 7
    What the heck!? I was quoted the same terms for a 2008 TSX with Nav. $2500 down, 36 months at 12k miles. They specific said they don't make deals on the new models other than the current incentives. My per month quote was $439.

    Either you are living in a state without taxes, or I am getting royally screwed. I know my residual was 62%, but the manager was out and the salesman didn't know the current money factor.

    Should I walk away from this deal?
  • I am new to leasing. It's still about the price of the car, right? I'm confused by the language in the current Acura "offer". The ad starts with MSRP of 28,860, less cap reduction ("which may be paid by dealer contribution") results in net cap cost of 26,590. This doesn't seem like a great deal relative to invoice when there's $1000 in dealer incentives out there. Plus, what about the $1,595 that I'm supposed to pay as part of the "due at signing" amount?
  • Does anyone know the august program. Junes was awesome and july;s sucked. Im looking at a used tsx but would love to get into something new
  • I live in NY and it was my first lease. Got an '08 w/o nav for the $1595 down and $299/month. I had to pay tax. My total was $3722 at signing for everything.
    Hope this helps someone get a good deal.
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    confused,

    Here's the ad...

    Offer valid through: 9/4/2007
    FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (Model CL9688JW) for $309.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,595.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, security deposit, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    Subject to limited availability. Through 9/4/2007, to approved lessees by American Honda Finance Corp. Closed end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission vehicles (Model CL9688JW), for well qualified lessees. Not all lessees will qualify. Higher lease rates apply for lessees with lower credit ratings. MSRP $28,860.00 (includes destination) less the capitalized cost reduction (which may be paid by the suggested dealer contribution) resulting in actual net capitalized cost $26,590.23. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect actual lease payment. Taxes, license, title fees, options and insurance extra. Total monthly payments $11,124.00. Option to purchase at lease end $18,470.40. Lessee responsible for maintenance, excessive wear/tear and 15 cents/mi. over 10,000 miles/year for vehicles with MSRP less than $30,000, but for vehicles with MSRP of $30,000 or more, mileage cost is 20 cents/mi. over 10,000 miles/year. See dealer for complete details.
    ____________________________________________________________________

    According to this Ad, there is $2499 due at lease signing which includes a $1595 cap reduction (i.e., down payment). The difference is $904. This difference includes 1st payment ($304), security ($325... $304 round up to the next whole $25). So, by default, one can logically conclude that the acquisition fee is $275 which is not very much by today's standards. Hmmmmm...

    One can also infer that the residual factor is 64% (i.e., 18,470.40/28,860.00 = 0.64). In other words, the Ad implies a residual buyout if you choose to exercise your purchase option at lease end.

    Now, when one couples the $309 with the net capitalized cost (an outdated term) of $26,590.23 and the $18,470.40 residual value using the money factor formula, one computes a money factor of 0.001852. This looks very funny to me because I've never seen a money factor with non-zero digits exceeding three.

    The money factor formula is used to compute the payment...

    Payment = MF x (AC + RV) + (AC - RV)/Term (months)

    where:

    MF = Money Factor
    AC = Adjusted Capitalized Cost (Net Capitalized Cost is the old FRBB's Reg. M terminology and is no longer applicable).
    RV = Residual Value

    And so, we have...

    309.00 = 0.001852 x (26,590.23 + 18,470.40) + (26,590.23 - 18,470.40)/36

    Again, the 0.001852 money factor looks very funky to me. I'm anxious to see exactly what the new money factor for August actually is because something just doesn't seem right. My best guess is that the new MF is 0.00185 and the actual payment is $308.91. Perhaps the Ad rounded this to the next whole dollar or $309.00 but even this seems very strange. Usually, they don't do that.

    The important thing to recognize is this...

    If you must pay the $1,595 cap reduction, the selling price of the car is the MSRP or $28,860.00. If the dealer pays the $1,595 cap reduction, then, effectively, you're only getting a $1,595 discount off of the MSRP... doesn't seem like a very good deal to me. As far as I know, invoice pricing is not available. See the following links...

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/acura/tsx/100890849/options.html?action=1&x=68&y- - - =13

    AND

    http://www.kbb.com/KBB/NewCars/PricingReport.aspx?VehicleId=OC8xMi8yMDA3fDE5NjQz- - - OA%3d%3d&PCFVehicles=&ManufacturerId=2&VehicleClass=NewCar&ModelId=6&Path=Pricin- - - g&YearId=2008#survey

    There are no incentives on the '08's as far as I'm aware...

    http://www.edmunds.com/new/2008/acura/tsx/100890849/incentives.html?vdp=off&setz- - ip=44256&state=OH

    If you are serious about getting this car, I would INSIST that the dealer pay the cap reduction which amounts to discounting the MSRP by $1,595. In fact, I would seek a $2,300 discount which would bring your adjusted cap to $26,560 assuming you're not financing anything. Otherwise, without knowing invoice pricing, I would seriously question whether or not you're getting a good deal.

    ???... let me know.

    Hope this helps.

    John
    Medina, Ohio

    PS: Do a search on delta737h and examine my posts that include a sample lease proposal. It's always wise to create a one-page lease proposal as they save time, money, and aggravation. Good luck!
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    Last year, I was very vocal about an AHFC Ad for a Honda Accord. The part that I complained about is replicated below.

    MSRP $21,375.00 (includes destination) less the suggested dealer contribution resulting in actual net capitalized cost $18,052.58.

    This is very misleading and suggests that the selling price is $18,052.58. Net Capitalized Cost is an outdated Reg. M term that was replaced with Adjusted Capitalized Cost in 1999. A local Honda Dealer agreed and said he would be willing to sell the car for $18,052.58 BEFORE any cap reduction.

    Dealer contribution can be construed to mean dealer discount and NOT cap reduction. Interestingly, I notice that since I complained, AHFC changed the wording of this year's ACURA TSX Ad to...

    MSRP $28,860.00 (includes destination) less the capitalized cost reduction (which may be paid by the suggested dealer contribution) resulting in actual net capitalized cost $26,590.23.

    Notice the difference! This year's Ad is very careful to define dealer contribution as being the capitalized cost reduction whereas last year's Ad didn't do that.

    One really needs to be careful when reading advertisements. ALWAYS hold the finance captives accountable and responsible for the claims and representations they make.

    John
    Medina, Ohio
  • cpa3cpa3 Posts: 88
    John,

    Enjoyed reading and going through your calculations. Not sure what your question was but here is what I came up with. The $2499 includes $309 + $595 + $1595. The $595 is Hondas Lease Fee (not negotiable). They charge this on all leases. There is no security deposit in their current offering.As you had said the $309 is the first payment and the $1595 is the cap reduction.

    I also agree with your rate of .00185 which equates to 4.4%, not as good as the 2.9% rate for purchase however. Using the .00185 I came up with a monthly pmt of $308.91.

    I am really interested in the TL. But it looks like to me that rate is .003 or 7.2%, not quite as good as the TSX. IMO the current lease rates are not that great. They have been better during the last year.
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    cpa3,

    I didn't have a question. I was simply writing some commentary ( posts #393&#394) in response to confused13's #390 post. If you read my post #393, you'll discover that I cut and pasted AHFC's current lease offer for the Acura TSX. It states, in part,...

    Offer valid through: 9/4/2007
    FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (Model CL9688JW) for $309.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,595.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, security deposit, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    ___________________________________________________________________

    Note that the $2499 does include a security deposit. AHFC rounds security deposits to the next whole $25. And so, one can reasonably conclude that the acq. fee amounts to $270...

    2499 = 309 + 325 + 1595 + 270

    I had erroneously stated $275 in a previous post. I had also commented that this seems quite low. And so, the $270 acq. fee seems very peculiar to me. No matter, consumers should hold AHFC accountable for a $270 acq. fee because it is crystal clear that's what the Ad implies.

    I'm fed up with the on-going mistakes that this industry makes. There are many dealerships and lease software vendors that make mistakes when calculating leases; especially, sign and drive leases where the first payment is being capitalized. Payments and sales tax are often calculated incorrectly particularly in those states (e.g., Ohio) that compute sales tax on the total payments. One software developer agreed and said that they would amend their software. That was last December. To date, they have yet to amend their software. Hmmmm.

    Inappropriate or skewed computations only serve to justify the rationale for incorporating standard computational methods in the Federal Reserve Bank Board’s Regulation M paralleling those of its Regulation Z cousin. I know that an APR is meaningless except for purposes of amortizing leases that use the constant yield or actuarial method but money factors or lease interest rates should be disclosed. Although few fund providers use it anymore, the antiquated Rule of 78's should be discarded. Some fund providers use interest rates like GMAC to compute payments. I believe that Ford Motor Credit used interest rates to construct, what they called, Acquisition and Lease End Value factors. GMAC called them Capfactors and Resfactors...

    Payment = CapCost x CapFactor - Residual x ResFactor

    In the last revision to Reg. M (1998?), the FRBB sided with the NADA, NVLA, etc., lobbyists in making the ridiculous claim that such disclosures as money factors would only "confuse" consumers. That's crap and is both presumptuous and insulting. I'm not confused and many others aren't confused either. That's just a poor excuse for non-disclosure in an effort to keep people ignorant. What's so shameful is that I know more about leasing mathematics than most in this industry. I teach mathematics part-time at a local university and used to be a practicing actuary. And so, I'm very familiar with financial mathematics.

    I'm still anxious to learn the TSX money factor for August. I assume that the money factor used to compute the Ad's $309 payment is the buy rate (i.e., without reserves).

    John
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,700
    I'm pretty sure in this case that the lease does not require a security deposit, even though that wording is included in the fine print. Note that the amount of the security deposit isn't given. I think that amount is $ZERO. It's possible they calculated the lease with the security deposit waiver bump added to the money factor (extra .00010).

    The acquisition fee is always $595.

    $309 + $1595 + $595 = $2499

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    kyfdx,

    I appreciate your comments. However, we as consumers aren't mind readers and so, AHFC needs to be held accountable and responsible for their Ads. If I were leasing a TSX, I would hold them to a $270 acquisition fee. I'm absolutely convinced that I was the reason why they changed the wording on their Ads from one year ago. See my post #394.

    When you're in business and you make a mistake, you eat the mistake. I'm sick of people in this business making tons and tons of mistakes. I see them an awful lot especially on sign and drive leases.

    John
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,700
    I don't see it that way.. The ad does not say that the security deposit is $325. It also doesn't say that the acquisition fee is $270.

    You can either read their mind, or you can't. ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    kyfdz,

    No mind reading necesssary. Look at my posts #393 and #394. One can conclude that the acquisition fee is $270. The Ad CLEARLY STATES...

    Offer valid through: 9/4/2007
    FEATURED SPECIAL LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2008 TSX 5-Speed Automatic Transmission (Model CL9688JW) for $309.00 per month for 36 months with a $1,595.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $2,499.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, security deposit, AHFC upfront acquisition fee and capitalized cost reduction; total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    Look at the BOLDED words above. They suggest the following...

    2499 = 309 + 325 + 270 + 1595.

    I agree that the Ad does NOT specifically state that the security and acquisition are $325 and $270, respectively. However, it is IMPLIED. This seems clear to me and it should be clear to anyone reading this Ad. As far as I know, AHFC routinely rounds payments w/tax to the NEXT whole $25 to determine the security deposit. Here, as the Ad suggests, we're excluding taxes. In fact, unless waived, this Ad suggests that Floridians would pay a security deposit of $325 because there is no state sales tax in Florida.

    I agree that security deposits are often waived in exchange for a MF bump; this Ad, however, in no way suggests that this is the case. This Ad is based on an MF of about 0.00185. I'm anxious to see the published money factor.

    Are you associated with AHFC or a Honda/Acura dealership in some way?

    John
  • kyfdxkyfdx Posts: 27,700
    You want to hold Acura to an ad, as though it's a financial contract, and yet, you assume many, many things not printed in the ad. It just doesn't work that way.

    I don't have the whole ad in front of me, but I'm sure there is a phrase something like, "Requires dealer contribution, which may vary". In other words, this is just a possible example. It's an advertisement, not a contract. I would assume they have lawyers to look those things over.

    On another note, just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they have a stake in the argument. Why would you think I work for Honda or Acura?

    I would have thought you would have noticed the "HOST" next to my name. No fine print necessary.. lol. ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

    MODERATOR
    Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    Walt,

    Wow, you sure have been around the block quite a bit, haven't you? I NEVER thought you worked for Honda or Acura. I was merely ASKING. PLEASE READ MY POSTS CAREFULLY.

    I'm well aware that this is NOT a contract. I'm also well aware that court awards have been made on representations made in advertisements. Furthermore, I'VE ASSUMED NOTHING. I have a PhD in mathematics and statistics and am very skilled in logical argument. The Ad CLEARLY states that it INCLUDES a security deposit. One can rationally draw valid conclusions based on the rhetoric contained in this clause and this clause alone. The other parts of the Ad are IRRELEVANT. If you get a chance, look at the entire Ad.

    I've served as a certified expert witness in cases involving both Reg. M and Z and so, yes, I would hold AHFC (not necessarily Acura) accountable. And, why did their lawyers approve changes in some of the wording from one year ago (see posts #393/#394)? I can tell you that I had something to do with it.

    John
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    1) I leased an Acura TSX today.
    2) kyfdx was totally correct, Acura is willing to waive the security deposit. Bank fee is 595. :)
    3) That said, they will honor the advertised deal - but you can do better with some simple negotiating
    4) delta/john i'm not sure why you are being so rude to one of our gracious hosts, who is only trying to help. By asking if he worked for Honda you implied that he was not to be trusted. You can make your little semantic argument if you want, but we all know what you meant.
    5) your understanding of what qualifies as misrepresentation in an advertisement (which is not an offer) is misleading others on these boards. Just because an ad says something does not make it written in stone, nor does the fact that it is mistaken in some way make it a misrepresentation automatically.
    6) I am, in fact, a lawyer.

    just ease up a little, were all trying to help each other here, not make kyfdx and carman wonder why they do this for free... ;)
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    Now, to help everyone else, I got a 2008 TSX (non-Nav) today in NJ.

    Here was my negotiated deal:

    MSRP: 28800
    Invoice: 26585
    Price: 27040 (~450 over invoice)
    Residual: 63% for 12K miles (64% for 10K, 61% for 15K)
    MF: .00185
    Bank fee: 595
    Document fee: 189
    NJ registration: 245

    Total down: first month + NJ fees + doc fee = about 800
    I rolled the bank fee... security was waived.
    Monthly payment was 373.

    I should note that this was with Tier 1 (super preferred, whatever they want to call it :) ) credit.

    Hope that helps some people.
    kyfdx and carman, keep up the good work! :shades:
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