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Acura TSX Lease Questions

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Comments

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    apz4,

    I'm not being, as you say, rude. And, if I was perceived as being rude, then please accept my sincerest apology. I'm sure that AHFC is willing to waive the security deposit but that was never the issue. The issue was whether or not they have a security deposit and, according to the Ad, they do indeed. At least, the Ad leads one to believe that they do. Another issue dealt with the acquisition fee. The Ad IMPLIES that it's $270 not $595 and I would expect them to honor it.

    From my perspective, the Ad is NOT mistaken. It means EXACTLY what it says whether intended or unintended. It's hard to argue with rhetoric. And, yes, a misrepresentation can be intentional or unintentional and can be the result of a mistake. Therefore, a mistake can misrepresent the true facts whether intended or unintended.

    I have no reason to believe that AHFC would intentionally mislead anyone. If, in fact, they didn't make a mistake, then the acq. fee is something different than $595. The only way the acq. fee can be $595 is for the words "security deposit" to be REMOVED FROM THE RELEVANT PORTION OF THE AD which is quite apart different than waiving it altogether.

    2499 = 309 + 595 + 1595

    That's like AHFC saying.... whoops, in order to collect the $595 acq fee, we'll just have to waive the sec. dep. so that the above equation is preserved. I say... oh no, I'll pay the sec dep plus a $270 acquisition fee as the Ad implies or suggests; mistaken or otherwise.

    It's just not good business to craft an Ad and then claim... well, it's not a contract and so we're not liable for whatever we say in an Ad. That's baloney.

    John

    PS: Regarding my question concerning whether Walt worked for Honda/Acura. I meant nothing by it, so please, don't draw falacious inferences or erroneous conclusions. YOU don't know me so don't pretend that you do. "WE ALL know what you meant"???... That's very presumptuous. You have no clue what was on my mind and neither does anyone else. Attorneys often make something out of nothing and create problems where there aren't any. And, as for doing work for free, I do it quite often and NEVER complain. I've been a big help to an awful lot of people in these forums that includes emailing articles I've written and I've been receptive to those wishing to send me personal emails. Read my posts and you can see for yourself.
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    delta/John,

    I in no way intend to start a flame war, and my intent is not to insult you. I have read your other posts and you clearly have a full understanding of statistics. However, you are making statements about the law that are not fully correct, probably similarly to what I would do if I started talking about statistics. :)

    Misrepresentation generally...
    First, a false statement is only one requirement to legally prove misrepresentation. Second, an unintentional mistake is generally not actionable in the absence of negligence.

    Third, and this is the funny one, misrepresentation requires justifiable reliance on the person being deceived. As such, John/delta and I, and anyone else reading this thread, should already be aware that the ad has a "false" statement, and therefore we cannot reasonably rely on the ad. Sometimes being smart can hurt you. ;)

    Whether the ad is false...
    I have to disagree here as well because of a reasonable, but perhaps incorrect, assumption you are making. John, you have assumed a 325 security deposit. Logical, yes. But legally binding, no. A one month security deposit is simply the industry convention, not a legal requirement. AHFC could simply turn to you and say that the security deposit is $1 and the bank fee is $594. There is no requirement that they charge a full month deposit. Furthermore, if they waive the deposit, thus a $0 deposit, then the ad is still true... the 2499 includes the required security deposit.

    Ahhh, you might say, but the ad is still misleading... but, none of us know the breakdown of the 2499 until you get into the dealership. The problem is that you know you don't know the breakdown, thus it will be hard to prove that you were mislead. Your computations that back into the number are logical for sure, but legal proof of zippo, unfortunately.

    The biggest mistake people make, especially math/science types (myself included before law school), about the law is assuming that it is logical. How Stupid of you! (just teasing :) ) So, your statement, "From my perspective, the Ad is NOT mistaken. It means EXACTLY what it says whether intended or unintended. It's hard to argue with rhetoric." Well, not for a lawyer. :) You see, lawyers make the law illogical so we can charge more money. (I hope I’m teasing??? :confuse: )

    Even if we were to call the ad a legally binding offer, the second you start to negotiate price or any other term, all bets are off. Legally, at that point, you are making a counteroffer. Thus, even if your $275 bank fee was legally correct, the dealership/AHFC is under no obligation to transfer that fee to a different deal for the car at a lower price. You'd be better off negotiating 1000+ off the price and paying the full bank fee anyway...

    ...
    John/delta, on a personal note...

    "Regarding my question concerning whether Walt worked for Honda/Acura. I meant nothing by it, so please, don't draw falacious inferences or erroneous conclusions. YOU don't know me so don't pretend that you do. ... You have no clue what was on my mind and neither does anyone else. "

    It has nothing to do with whether I know you, or whether you actually meant what was implied. It is the reasonable and direct inference people will draw when one makes a statement like that. Especially when dispensing specialized knowledge, it is easy to come across as arrogant/rude on the internet when we cannot hear the tone of people's voices. I myself have been guilty of it on occasion. :blush:

    So, you didn't mean it that way, which is excellent. :) But when a recipient makes natural inferences on what appears on its face to be an aggressive statement, it is not the fault of the recipient. Just put a smiley on the end of a question like that and we'll all know you're kidding next time... :) oh, and btw, not once did I question your help to others... I simply asked that you not attack others that also help.

    -apz4 :shades:
  • I didn't mean to start an argument (just finish one..lol).

    My only issue is that it's better to concentrate on what deal can actually be achieved, than to focus on the advertising. Not many of us could marshal the forces needed to hold a manufacturer to their advertising claims, even if we were attorneys. An ambiguous advertisement, with qualifiers in the fine print, at that.

    My attempt to clarify the ad was based on what I know about Acura/Honda leases.

    I considered the question about my allegiance to Honda/Acura to be humorous. After all, it says right at the top of the page: Consumer Driven

    No harm done.. anyway, this isn't my discussion, it belongs to Car_man.. ;)

    regards,
    kyfdx

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    apz4,

    Your points are well taken. I'm not interested in litigation or legalities. I'm only interested in the reasonable man interpretation of what the Ad actually states. I won't debate this point any further other than to say let's just agree to disagree. Besides, I think it's rather petty and any concerns can be addressed with AHFC or the dealership. I'm reasonably confident that fair and honest treatment will prevail.

    I really appreciate your time taken to explain this issue from the legal perspective. I'm not an attorney but I have worked with them in the past as a certified expert witness in matters regarding the FRBB's Reg. M and Reg. Z.

    I do believe that lease rates (i.e., money factors, interest rates) should be disclosed. I'm not advocating the disclosure of an APR because it's usefulness is limited to determining outstanding lease balances in those instasnces where the actuarial or constant yield method is used. I'm also in favor of standardizing lease payment calculations. GMAC, for instance, does something very odd. They discount the residual one month nearer to the present and use the resulting "adjusted residual" to compute the lease payment. Ford Motor credit used to add 0.0011 to the capcost annuity factor to account for an acquisition fee. This meant that consumers would pay an additional $1.10 each month for every $1,000 of capitalized cost. Ford no longer does this. Instead, they charge a $595 acq. fee.

    Anyway, thanks for your comments and I'll try to watch what I say and how I say it.

    Best,

    John
    Medina, Ohio
  • apz4apz4 Posts: 5
    John,

    I'm glad we could resolve it. I understand what you're saying from a business perspective, and I agree. I just didn't want a reader here to misunderstand what you were saying and think they could take an aggressive legal stance with the dealership. From a business perspective, you're right, these ads are ridiculous. They always leave out a key piece of information or two in order to obfuscate the money factor and/or the residual.

    "I do believe that lease rates (i.e., money factors, interest rates) should be disclosed. "
    I couldn't agree more.

    I think the other problem with leasing is that the salespeople typically (in my experience) have no clue what is going on with the numbers. It's rare that you find one that does. I almost always end up dealing with the finance manager, cause they're the only one at the dealership who truly understands leasing. In fact, the only dealership I've been to where the salespeople actually run the lease numbers is at BMW. And I'm not sure if that is a BMW thing, or just my dealership.

    "I'm also in favor of standardizing lease payment calculations. "
    Yes, or at least requiring that they be more transparent and fully explained. The other problem is taxes. The taxation of leases varies from straight forward, to complex, to IMO obscene (Illinois). I wish the fed would encourage the states to standardize their taxing practices because of the burden it places on interstate commerce in the buying/selling of lease rights.

    Now, we just need a lobbyist as powerful as the entire automotive industry... :cry:
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    apz4,

    I'm with you stride for stride. It's funny that you mention that you'll only deal with the finance manager. I, too, am the same way. I'll call the F&I person and request lease info (money factor, residual factor, acq. fee, etc) and then I'll create a one page lease proposal. Then, I'll FAX/email it to him or her. I have found that this has saved me lots of time, money, and aggravation.

    Once, I FAXED a sign and drive proposal and all the F&I guy could do was confirm my numbers. He said his software was not able to compute payments where the capitalized first payment exactly matched the remaining payments. He completed the lease agreement with the numbers from my proposal. When I arrived, I signed the papers and spent no more than 35 minutes at the dealership. Like you, I refuse to deal with sales people because they simply have no clue what a lease entails. Sales people will waste your time if you let them. So many of them are nothing more than order takers. Want fries with that?

    At any rate, I don't think we're going to solve these problems anytime soon. The best we can do is protect ourselves by being armed with knowledge because Knowledge = Power.

    Have a great day my good friend.

    John
  • delta737hdelta737h Posts: 603
    kyfdx,

    I apologize for having asked the question. I didn't intend to be insulting or offensive. You've done an outstanding job in these forums and deserve much more respect. I'm glad you could see the humor.

    Best,

    John
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Hey bobw92. Acura pulled the plug on its special lease money factors for the 2007 TSX in August. If you want to lease an '07 TSX now, you have to use its standard lease program and the $1,000 regional cash incentive that is available on leases of this car through Honda Finance. This regional cash incentive is available in New Mexico.

    Acura introduced a new national special lease program on the 2008 TSX, featuring a buy rate lease money factor of .00185 for consumers who qualify for its "Super Preferred" credit tier.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Yes, revs1, the $1,000 lease cash that Acura is providing on the '07 TSX right now is available in Delaware.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Hi kidcloudkiker. Acura is no longer providing special lease money factors on the 2007 TSX. As a result, if you were to lease one through Honda Finance, you would have to use its standard lease program. Don't even bother with a 24 month lease using the standard program, its money factor is terrible... .00385 for "Super Preferred" customers compared to .00290 for 36 months. Honda Finance's current 36 month, 15,000 mile per year residual value for an '07 TSX without navigation is 56%. The residual value for a lease with only 12,000 miles per year would be 2% higher. When negotiating your lease on the 2007 TSX that you are interested in, make sure to take advantage of the $1,000 regional cash incentive that Acura is providing on leases of it through Honda Finance. This offer is available in Ohio.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Welcome confused13. Since you are new to the world of leasing, you definitely should check out the following informative articles that are available here at Edmunds.com prior to visiting any dealers: 10 Steps to Leasing a New Car and Calculate Your Own Lease Payment.

    You are right, the best way to get a good deal on a leased vehicle is to negotiate as low a selling price as possible. Once you arrive at a price that you are comfortable with, have the dealer that gives it to you calculate your lease payment using the buy rate lease money factor for the model that you want.

    Consumers can usually negotiate better deals on their own than the ones that are featured in manufacturers' advertised leases.

    Car_man
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    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Hi pollofrito81. Acura's lease program on the 2007 TSX is the same in August as it was in July. However in late July it introduced a special program on the 2008 TSX. It is now providing a special lease money factor of .00185 for "Super Preferred" tier customers on the '08 model.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Hi delta737h. The $2,499 that is due at lease signing breaks down as follows: $309 first month's payment + $595 acquisition fee + $1,595 capitalized cost reduction. The security deposit is being waived on this special lease promotion.

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • I'm being told by a dealer here in the Dallas area that there is pretty much no dealing on selling price whatsoever on 2008 TSX with 6spd :( . Is this the case or am I being taken for a ride? :confuse:
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Congrats on getting your new TSX, apz4. It looks like you got a very good deal. Thanks for taking he time to share the details of your lease with everyone. It will be very helpful for others who are in the market. Don't forget to stop by the new Dealer Ratings & Reviews section of this site to share your thoughts on your recent dealer experience. Enjoy your new ride :shades: .

    Car_man
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    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • CarMan@EdmundsCarMan@Edmunds Posts: 38,518
    Hi bnewton1. I have definitely seen consumers report getting pretty decent discounts on the 2008 TSX lately. I am not familiar with what the market is like for this particular model in your neck of the woods, but it wouldn't hurt to shop around to see if you can do better. You may want to try stopping by the following discussion to see how much others have reported paying for this car lately: "Acura TSX: Prices Paid & Buying Experience".

    Car_man
    Host
    Prices Paid: Buying & Leasing Experiences Forum
  • John, please email me a copy of your sample lease proposal. My email is masseygc@comcast.net. With your input, I think I am now (finally!) understanding the leasing "game", although I have one additional question on the ad you analyzed. The stated MSRP is $28,860 and the "Net Capitalized Cost" is $26,590 which is a difference of $2,270. However, the "Capitalized Cost Reduction" stated in the ad is only $1,595. What does the $675 difference represent? Is this a "discount" off the MSRP? Thanks for your help. I feel like I've done a good job of buying cars in the past, but I don't want to get hosed on a lease.
  • sharp2sharp2 Posts: 2
    Leased 2008 non/nav for 299/month (tax included )36 month 10k miles/year 2500.00 out of pocket.
  • I leased an 08 TSX black on black 6 speed manual;

    2k out of pocket
    15k miles @ 36 months
    352 a month.

    Superpreferred Rate and 61% residual, my math says i bought the car for about 500 over invoice which is ok with me being it was an 08 and they had many 07's still available. I take delivery today, I cant wait!
  • vinayg1vinayg1 Posts: 28
    Hi. Does anyone know whether in general Acura has better lease deals in August or in September.

    My current lease is getting over end of September. Ideally, I would like to wait till the lease is almost over (why pay for 2 cars?). But if historically, Acura does not have any good lease deals in September, then I might lease the new one a bit early.

    TIA for any help.
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