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Honda S2000 Lease Questions

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  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    Dennis-

    so did you get a new one??? I've seen you post here several times - a few times replying to my threads.... i know you had an older model and were thinking of upgrading to a new S2000.

    I am very much interested in a two seat roadster. at the moment i'm torn between leasing a new S2k or buying a used boxster. my dad is selling his 2000 base - highly optioned including 18" wheels, heated seats, full leather, upgraded lights/tails, and M030 (super stiff suspension package) - it's only 217 hp, but having driven an S2k, the 217hp base boxster feels faster due to having more torque... the sound of the boxster is musical....amazing. but buying a car with 50-75k miles means itw ill require repairs. i could buy his car for 14-15k and have a payment lower than the s2k lease... but i've make up the difference with repair costs,e tc.

    decisions.

    maybe i'll have to test drive an s2k again. :)

    you think there is any more room to improve on the deal you got? your deal sounds very good. you put essentially nothing down..or just the payment + tax so lets say $500 or so.

    last time i went in they wanted something like 2-3k down and then they quoted me a monthly about what you are paying.

    i would lke to think I could get the car down to about 350 with tax... so shave another 50/month off... but over a 36 month lease, that's almost another $2000... not sure i can shave THAT much off the car.

    $400/month with virtually nothing down for a brand new s2k lease and 12k/year..is a great deal. it will run like a top... and after having driven a bone stock s2k, i can say that while you COULD modify it to make it faster/handle better - the car does NOT need it.

    i've modified a lot of my former cars...and the s2k is one that you really coudl drive bone stock and love it every minute. same for the boxster. they are amazing cars right out of the box.

    i'm gonna have to look into the s2k lease some more. the deals sound pretty tempting.

    how is the new car Dennis??? better than the old one or is it the same, just all new?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I think my car was priced into all but $250 or so of the hold back. Unless the incentives get better, the lease rate gets cheaper, or both I would not think you could do much better leasing an 08 S2000.

    I posed the residual and the money factory, you should concentrate on negotiating the lowest possible selling price on the car. Keep in mind the $1k dealer lease incentive. Once you have that, you plug that number into a lease calc and work out your payments.

    The boxster is a nice car, the boxster s is a VERY nice car - but a whole lot more money than an S. Yes a used example is cheaper but would probably still be about as much as a new S. Get a used S, and things really start to get inexpensive. My 05 could be had for maybe $21,500 for example :D .

    The newer car has different seats, drive by wire throttle, stability control, and several other changes but it basically drives and feels the same to me - just newer.

    Dennis
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    And that new car smell! Don't forget the new car smell! :)
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    Dennis-

    your deal sounds pretty good. I'm really thinking about doing another test drive. :)

    the pricing right now is very attractive. I'm basically torn between the boxster or boxster S and the S2k. the boxster is the car i honestly like better - but to get a NEW boxster would be way way way out of my price range. I'd be looking at 2000-2002 models at most...and buying a used one in the 20k range. I've seen nice base AND S models in that price range with 30-50k on the car and some with extended warranties that would buy me a couple years of peace of mind.

    the big downside to the porsche is that it's got to be more expensive to keep running. I could basically get a NEW S2k and have a payment of about $400/mnth with no out of pocket money. for a used porsche to have that total cost of ownershp...I'd probably have to stick with a used, higher mileage car...

    the one apples/orange part of the comparo though, is that if I bought a used boxster, at the end of the loan term, say I went 4-6 years - i coudl keep the payment low by stretching it out a while, and at the end of the term, id' own it. say I did a 4 year loan on a car that cost me $20k and had roughly 50k on the car. assuming 10-12k/year driving - the car would have 90-100k on it at the end of the loan, and i honestly don't know what it woudl be worth then, but i'm guessing in the 10-12k range or so. so say it's wroth 10k....i'd spend 20-23k in total cost + financing fees, plus say another 4-5k in repairs/mainteneance...which puts my total cost at 28k worst case scenario...minus the 10k ti's wroth when the loan is over and my net cost is 18k.

    the S2000 is less than that - and while it's "not a porsche", i'd have ZERO reliability/repair issues and my only "job" woudl be to make my payment, and drive the stink out of the car and enjoy it. :)

    it's very hard to compare loans to leases.

    I guess I always could consider a used S2k...like an 05 or 06 and try to get a sweet one for artound 20k. then i coudl do an apples/apples comparo to the boxster... you know the s2k will cost me less to maintain. not sure which would have a better residual in 4-5 years. for 20k i'd be getting a slightly newer lower mileage s2k....for sure. 05 or 06 model vs a 00-02 model porsche.

    both cars have their pros/cons.

    my heart wants the boxster but my pocketbook likes the s2k.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Unless it was a factory backed extended warranty, I would worry about getting any repairs done. Without a warranty I would make sure I had lots of spare money laying around to pay for repairs. The bad news is the dealer will be silly high on parts and repairs, the good news is that the high dealer prices usually mean there and some independent shops around who can take care of the car.

    Check insurance rates as well, a used boxster may cost more to insure than even a new S2000.

    As a point of reference, my 05 S2000 with 12k on it and a 7 yr (4 left), 75k, $0 deductible HondaCare warranty on it would be about $21.5k or a bit less as it sits.

    Like I said before, the boxster is a nice car and the s is a great car but they are a lot of money new or used and when they break :D .

    Dennis
  • kyfdx@Edmundskyfdx@Edmunds Posts: 25,951
    my heart wants the boxster but my pocketbook likes the s2k.

    The eternal dilemma..

    In my experience, buying a used Porsche will only save you on depreciation.. it will be as expensive to maintain as a new one (or more), and then you have the repair issues.. Even a used Boxster in the $20K-$25K range will be more expensive over 3 years than the S2000 lease..

    The usual advice on buying used Porsches is to get the newest, lowest mileage model that you can afford, as that will be cheaper in the long run.. I think that is telling advice about how expensive owning a Porsche can be..

    But, no point in dropping over $400/mo. on an S2000, if you regret it every time you see a Boxster drive by..

    regards,
    kyfdx
    (done the Porsche thing)

    Moderator - Prices Paid, Lease Questions, SUVs

  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    I need to test drive the two cars back to back to see just HOW much more I really like the porsche.

    i drove the s2000 twice. once with the top up and once with the top down. the top down trip - was a much longer test drive, on twisty roads,a nd i absolutely loved it. the only thing i HATE is the tach. that digital thing is so nasty. the boxster has a nice huge center tach which i like.

    i'll keep you all posted!!
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    when I first started looking at a small sporty car, I was really drawn to the RX8. i looked at both the rx8 and s2k. each has pros/cons.

    i would have liked either car - the s2k for being more performance for themoney and top down fun. the rx8 had more practicality/usability and was more comfortable.

    the only rx8s i liked were more heavily optioned and at that price level the s2k was a better buy.

    now mazda has released the 09s and they have an r3 trim level. stiffer suspension, cool body kit, awesome seats... differetn rear end ratio on all new 8s supposedly make it quicker off the line and accelerate better at lower speeds.

    i have yet to test drvie one, but with this newer suspension, i wonder fi the new rx8 will have that "soft" feeling gone and feel more like the s2k - stiff and sportier feeling.

    the new r3 version looks very cool too.

    anyone test drive the r3 yet and compare it to an s2k?
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    I love the RX8 so no disprect for that car, just reminding you of the rising oil costs and the RX8 is an oil burner.

    Now, pardon me while I go look at the '09 RX8 to see what exactly you are talking about! :)

    I'll have to see it in person but not too bad.

    image
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    i wonder if it makes more sense to do the lease of a new 08 or find a leftover 07?

    i would think an 07 could be had for 28k or so...at most. mylocal dealer said they woudl sell their leftover 07s for 28k and that was just off the phone. if i was there, willing to sign up and take it away, they might go even lower.

    how cheap can you buy an 07 for now? would it make more financial sense to buy at the cheaper price for an 07 or lease an 08?

    even wiht a great APR, I would think the monthly payment for a purchase is goig
    n to be quite a bit higher unless you do some sort of crazy long payment plan...

    i think the lease is the way to go. anyone disagree?

    i would assume the cost of a 36 month least, double it and then compare that to financing the 07 over 72 months.

    although hard to say you could lease the same car for the same price in 3 years. but to make an apples/apples comparison in terms of total costs... i would think that the lease would be better as the monthly payment on a 6 year loan woudl be close to the lease payments...and the lease would never really need much repairs..while the s2k will start costing to repair in years 4-5-6.

    although in the end of the loan you own something, vs own nothign on the lease.

    anyone care to figure that one out??
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Haven't we had this discussion before?

    I had an 05 RX-8 GT 6mt w/Nav and while I like the car, it drank gas like a Hummer (15-16 mpg commuting) and drank a good bit of oil. On a trip, all Interstate, to pick up my daughter's new Civic I got about 19 mpg and that was fill, Interstate, fill. Truly terrible miles for a car with not much power and not large or heavy. Resale value was as bad as a Suzuki or Kia. Smooth motor, but no torque. Classy looking interior, but crummy Bose stereo that can't be easily upgraded. Way out of date Nav (my 05 came with an 03 disc) with non-existent upgrades. Nice handling without a stiff ride. I returned it lease end as I could not find a buyer and did not want to over pay for it buying it out and didn't want to own something with such a sharp decline in value. Long term worries about the motor as well, but this has been eased somewhat by the new long rotary powertrain warranty from Mazda. It would cover by 05 retroactively, if I still had it.

    I replaced the 8 some months later with a G37. More power, gobs more torque, better everything (except weight). Gets 17 mpg around town and well into the 20's on the road.

    I am now on my 3rd S2000, a new 08 after the 05 and 01 cars I had previously. I get 23-24 mpg commuting and around 28 mpg on the highway - all with the top down. With the $1k lease incentive I got mine "real cheap" and the lease rate is low as well. I little more sparse in the sound deadening and luxury appointments, but that is OK. Stereo is pretty good and uses normal DIN head unit and standard size speakers so upgrades are easy. Not much room, not much space. True sports car handling and (to me) not that rough of a ride. Staggered tire sizes front and rear mean no rotating possible and super soft tires mean 12k to 16k and you will be buying new rear tires (unless you just poke along). Resale value, once very, very strong for S2000s is more normal now and is on the decline.

    I have not driven the r3 and probably will not. The differences might make a little difference, but it looks like if you get the package you miss out on things (like heated seats) you would get if you got the GT model. Is it a limited production model? If so, then no deals. Even if not, they just launched so probably no deals or incentives for quite some time.

    If I were looking for a coupe today, I might wander down to the BMW dealer and test drive the 135 . If I wanted a convertible, I would find a Honda dealer willing to price a new 08 down into the hold back (as I did) :D .

    Dennis
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Did you check my lease deal post just a few messages up?

    MSRP: $34,935
    Invoice: $31,689

    My price for the car, destination, and dealer fee: $30,247.37


    and that is with a cheap lease too. If you buy, the price would be higher by $1k but you could do the 2.9% financing for 60 months.

    Run the numbers for yourself and see how it looks. $31,300 at 2.9% for 60 would be $561 per month. $28k at 5.29% is $532. If your credit union has a lower rate, then you could get a lower payment. That is ASSUMING they will give you new car rate money on a left over 2007 car - many banks will not.

    You will be upside down on the loan no matter if you do an 08 or 07, but will stay upside down a lot longer (and for more money) on the 07.

    You will not be able to get a good lease on a left over car, so that is out.

    If you lease an 08 then the $1k dealer incentive applies but you have to add the $595 bank fee. Still, the net is $405 CHEAPER in cost if you lease. Since the lease MF has a low interest rate (1.75%) you should come out just fine leasing the car, then buying it in 3 years if you decide to keep it. You start out at a cheaper price and pay less interest now - but you will likely have to pay more interest to buy it out (again depending on your bank or credit union's rate at that time). If you decide it is time for something else, no worries about the eroding resale value if you lease - just turn it in at lease end and walk away.

    Dennis
  • bonvivantbonvivant Posts: 27
    Many thanks for your comments. I've been trailing this discussion and can identify with many points of view. Yeah, the Porsche dilemma. Cost of owning a new S 2000 after five years is said to be ~ $60K and the Boxster about half again as much. For an old guy facing declining income and maybe one last roadster, the Porsche seems like too steep a hill. I haven't spent enough time behind the wheel of any open car lately to know which would be the easiest to live with. A Miata looks like the default ride if I can't make a low to mid $30K deal on an S2000 as described.

    I lived with an MGB and Alfa Spyder in the 60s, but I was in my 20s.

    The SF Bay Area, I think, may still be one of the stronger regions for the S, so it'll be a test to see if I can find a dealer who wants to make a quick sale at low profit. I bought an M3 in '99 from a dealer group which owns the local Honda store, and they screwed with the money factor in the fine print of my lease. I didn't pick up on it till I went home and ran the numbers. They were dinking me for about fifty bucks a month by claiming the disparity in what was quoted verbally and what emerged in writing was the result of mysterious fees, and that it would somehow be made up with lower residual. (My first lease: I was a babe in the woods.) The good news is that after some internal churning and several spirited talks with the GM and a letter to the CEO, they reissued the lease with the correct figures. I was lucky, I guess, but needless to say the prospect of buying from this closest outlet gives me pause. I intend to see who'll work with me by email and phone, because I just can't do the on-site dealer dance one more time.
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    i think your figures are wrong. $60k total cost to own a new S2k after 5 years? I think you mean the total cost would be the cost of the car - like $30k or so. yeah, there will be finance charges and maintenance, but not another 30k worth...

    maybe you meant 60k for the PORSCHE?? and half for the s2k?! :)

    a new porsche - yeah. big costs. i'd never buy a new porsche, not NOW. i'd be looking at a used one if I got one at all. you can get nice low mileage used boxsters for about the cost of a new s2k. if you have 30k to BUY - you could get yourself a nice boxster. probably an 04-05 base with low miles. get one with an extended warranty, and you'd be doing pretty well.

    if you compare buying a used porsche vs leasing a new S2000 - however, you stat to get monthly costs that come near close and the s2k has the benefit of NO repair bills at a porsche dealer. :) the big unknown on a used porsche is the repairs. could be low and could nickel and dime you to death.

    given my situation - i am interested in something with a high bang / buck value. a used porsche boxster would be perfect if I had a crystal ball and knew I could pickup a nice 2000 model with 65k miles, and have MINIMAL repairs... you can buy these for 15k. (although you can buy USED s2ks in this price poijnt too that are 05 model - with very low miles like 25-40k on them.

    the porsche is a neat car. the one i drove had an upgraded suspension, 18s,a nd the sound of that motor is amazing. go to youtube and put in boxster and exhaust and listen to some of the clips of those things. the sound is intoxicating. very cool. the s2k sounds okay, but the s2k is almost obnoxious sounding if you compare it to a boxster. sorry.

    the s2ks big appeal is that it does everything the boxster can do in terms of performance for half the money with bullet proof reliability. if you can live without the "porsche" image - it is a lot of car for the money.

    one nagging thing is the s2k dash. I am not kidding - I FRICKIN HATE the bargraph dash thing. i think it's an eyesore and disgusting. the boxster has a nice big basic tach which I love. every second you sit in the car and look at the dash you see that . the S2000 dash just drives me up the wall - why they did that awful bargraph thing is beyond me.

    do any of you like it, love it? did you hate it then get used to it? does it have ANY benefit in terms of visibility or redline notification..does it all flash at you to shift or something... i still think it's fugly.
  • aramismaramism Posts: 28
    well im planning on getting an s2000 lease in ny very soon.

    ive never put a penny up front except dmv and first months so i am hoping to get this car in the 300's somewhere with 300-400 upfront total with everything.

    my mother actually has a civic that is on an extended lease that i am currently driving. i just got out of an 06 infi m45 sport last month and being that my mom had a few months left on an extended 03 civic lease and she got a new jetta so i figured i can take a few months to decide what to get and save some money as the payment on th civic is like 200 a month.

    so hopefully if she co-registers there will be additional discount since the s2000 is coming out of a civic lease so honda -> honda.

    based on this business do you think the MF and such will be better after the july 7th promotion because im probably not going to be able by july 7th to get this car and that is when the promotion expires. any thoughts?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    To be honest, once you are used to driving a new to you car you will not be looking at the tach anyway. If you are paying attention, every engine tells you by sound and feel when it needs to be shifted. Sure, not used to a 8.5k or 8k redline will have you shifting too soon unless you stare at the tach but once you get used to the car then you will never need to watch - just drive. Or at least that is the case for me.

    The one car I owned which was hard to drive this way was an RX-8. The rotary was so SMOOOOOTH and pulled right up to and through redline that the factory added a pre-redline shift alert. Once you got close to redline it would beep to tell you that you were about about of RPMs. That came in very handy for driving without watching the tach.

    One thing I really like now is a digital speedometer. I had a heads up display in my C5 'vette and it was so much nicer than the analog gauge. Then the S2000s I have own have all been digital readout as was the RX-8. I love it, I want to know I am going 58 and not "something between 55 and 60" and you can tell with a digital gauge at a glance. I put ScanGauge IIs in all the cars so they all have a digital (and correctable) speedometers.

    I can share the desire for the boxster. Heck, I have wanted an NSX every since they launched and I have a nice scale model of one on my desk (along with some others) but I have given up on owning one. By the time the price drops to what I would pay they are all really old and / or really high mile. I had a friend that had a couple so I have been able to drive one, just not in the cards to own one. If you can get your dream car, then you should. Just get a good deal on a nice example so if your dream turns into a nightmare you can unload it without losing too much.

    Dennis
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    The current rate and residual combination is a little better than what was in the prior deal, what makes now a nice time is the $1k dealer incentive on top of the lease. None of us knows what Honda will do after the current deals expire, could be better deals for leases or could be worse. For SALES it might be better but I am not sure a cheaper lease deal will be coming - but that is just a guess on my part.

    Dennis
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Dennis, I believe you and I are kindres spirits! :) It isn't in my cards to own an NSX either but holy cow do I still love them, even if they are what, 14 years old? I could almost afford to timeshare one! I also have a scale model at my office! Mine is black but anyway, back to the point...

    I've always loved the digital readout, the tach's bar graph I personally find helpful, especially in the beginning of ownership. There is no staring at the dash to obtain speed or RPMs, just a quick glance and then you can focus on the road again.
  • bonvivantbonvivant Posts: 27
    Just to clarify my earlier comments about cost of ownership for five years: the $60K for the S2000 vs. $90K Boxster referred to TOTAL cost of ownership, i.e., depreciation, fuel, insurance, lease/ finance costs, repairs, etc. The figures are based on near-MSRP pricing, so it's an apples to apples comparison. To further illustrate, this breaks down to ~ 85 cents a mile for an S2000 and $1.28 a mile for a Boxster. Just for ducks, a Cayman S is $1.38 a mile, a BMW 135 is $1.00 a mile and Miata is 75 cents. I'm not sure how ultimately practical such knowledge is since buying this type of car is hardly in the same realm as buying for an appliance, but is does give a rough basis for comparison. Anyway, we're not talking about Enzos or other "ultimate" cars here. ("Ultimate" is a really big category, one which only the deceased -- George Carlin and Scott Kalitta, R.I.P., are qualified to address, if they but possess the will and wherewithall.)

    For all my motorheadedness, I've a practical side that hates surprises -- I still remember the day in 1972 when I walked out of my flat in San Francisco to find my recently bought '67 Sunbeam Alpine stolen. This isn't entirely apropos to this discussion except as an illustration of the vagaries of owning a sports car. I was young and foolish, and frugal, I thought, so I didn't have it insured for collision or theft.

    I'm trying to illustrate the importance of abiding dependability. Throughout the last ten years of leasing, buying, then selling a '99 M3, and owning and driving an unusually entertaining Subaru Forester XT MT, which my wife now drives, I never sold my '94 Integra GSR Sedan. I'm the original owner and it's got only 71,000 miles on it. It has been completely bullet-proof. It runs up through VTech to 8200 RPM without any indication of stress. This happens less often than when it and I were younger, yet it still stirs something vital. There's no question that the sound of a Porsche at full song is about as good as it gets for mere mortals, still, the thought of ever having to tear into one of those boxer motors at this stage of life and income is daunting. Just how does one beat a Honda or other Japanese car for reliability? I didn't want to hang on to the BMW long enough to find out.

    BTW, I've driven a friend's massively-Compteched NSX -- he has more money than anyone needs -- and it is BIG "I" impressive, in a far more refined way than an original '67 427 Cobra I drove in '72 ... owned by the guy who sold me the Alpine. Absolutely silly-fast, especially on the tires of that era. It was British racing green, with high-rise manifold and racing oil cooler, and had 7500 miles on it. Pristine. I could have bought it for $7500 -- mind you, this is what a new 911 cost in those days, so, as with Porsches of today, was a little rich for my blood. Sorry ... got a little off track there. Maybe, I'd be safer in a Miata after all.
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    the honda website does not show any sort of s2000 lease "special".

    the local dealer said they thought the deal that had been running up to early July was no longer available.

    so it the S2000 no longer a good lease deal? i held off on doing anythign thinking it would onlyh get better...but now it looks like they pulled the 1000 incentive and low MF?

    oh well. i guess you snooze you lose. anyone know the current numbers on a 2008 s2000 lease?

    fyi - i looked at leasing AND buying. my local dealer still has 2007 models on their lot!! they have a sign saying $6000 off MSRP on both the 07 AND the 08 models.

    my guess is they may do even better on an s2000 purchase?!?! how cheap could i really get an s2k, especially if i bought an 07?
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