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Honda S2000 Lease Questions

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  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    i noticed there is now a lease special advertised on Honda's website. i checked a few days ago and it was NTO there, so this is something new.

    for those of you who have been shopping this vehicle - how does this lease stack up to past deals on the car?

    assuming one took advantage of this deal - what are the MF's and residual values...and is it a good deal?

    i am cross shopping the RX8 and S2000....i like the S MORE as i know it has more performance and i really want a convertible... but the RX8 has been a cheaper car...some were selling at the 27k price range... and so the S wa always more money...and this is going to be a toy car....totally unnecessary...so every cent i can save might make it more likely to convince the wifey to pull the trigger on it.

    how is this new lease deal? is it really agood deal or not?
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    For convenience, here is the information from the Honda site:

    FEATURED LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2007 S2000 Manual Transmission (Model AP2147ENW) for $349.00 per month for 36 months with a $2,999.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $3,943.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, AHFC up front acquisition fee, capitalized cost reduction, security deposit. Security deposit waived in featured lease example. Total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    I don't know how to read this. Can someone put this in plain English for us? This says I'd have to put down $4000 cash? Is this assuming the buyer leases the car at msrp price, invoice or what? The way I read it is that if someone with stellar credit applies that there is a $3000 taken off the top?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    From Honda - not likely they would do a cheap lease AND give the dealer $2k in cash both. Even on the Accord at times they would do a little cash and cheaper lease, but with the recent $750 cash they would not combine it with the cheap lease deal. Now, if this was after the 08 cars come out (no S then) and they still had 07s on the lots, then they might make it really sweet.

    I love my 05 S and loves the 01 S I had before, but both have been leases. When I compared the lease VS buy it was a no-brainer to lease first, then buy later if I wanted to. On the 2nd one if they had not had a cheap lease deal, I MIGHT have just financed it - but more likely I would have just purchased the 01 off of lease and kept driving it.

    Dennis
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Dennis,

    Did you see the lease promo anounced today???? Once I understand it, then I may be driving a new S this weekend! :shades:
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    You left out some of the fine print:

    FEATURED LEASE: Closed-end lease for 2007 S2000 Manual Transmission (Model AP2147ENW) for $349.00 per month for 36 months with a $2,999.00 capitalized cost reduction available to customers who qualify for the AHFC Super Preferred credit tier. Other rates/tiers are available under this offer. $3,943.00 total due at lease signing (includes first month's payment, AHFC upfront acquisition fee, capitalized cost reduction, security deposit. Security deposit waived in featured lease example. Total net capitalized cost and base monthly payment does not include tax, license, title, registration, documentation fees, options, insurance and the like). Not all buyers may qualify.

    Subject to limited availability. Through 4/30/2007, to approved lessees by American Honda Finance Corp. Closed end lease for 2007 S2000 Manual Transmission vehicles (Model AP2147ENW), for well qualified lessees. Not all lessees will qualify. Higher lease rates apply for lessees with lower credit ratings. MSRP $34,845.00 (includes destination) less the suggested dealer contribution resulting in actual net capitalized cost $27,922.46. Dealer contribution may vary and could affect actual lease payment. Taxes, license, title fees, options and insurance extra. Total monthly payments $12,564.00. Option to purchase at lease end $20,210.10. Lessee responsible for maintenance, excessive wear/tear and 15 cents/mi. over 12,000 miles/year for vehicles with MSRP less than $30,000, but for vehicles with MSRP of $30,000 or more, mileage cost is 20 cents/mi. over 12,000 miles/year. See dealer for complete details.


    So the residual is $20,210.10 which is 58% of MSRP - so we know that. The net cap cost (the amount the lease is based on) is $27,922.46. Knowing the residual, term, payment ($349), and net cap we can work backwards to get the money factor. With my lease calculator this solves to 0.00280 money factor or 6.72% rate. Note that the last MF and residual I saw (in January) was 0.00275 and 58% - so this is the SAME DEAL (actually a little worse).

    The money due at signing breaks down like this: They ask for $3,943.00. $2,999.00 of this goes toward cap cost reduction (a down payment, in other words). There is a $595 lease acquisition fee, $349 first month's payment - the normal $350 refundable security deposit is waived. $2999+$595+$349 = $3943.

    If we break down the price part, the net cap after your money and the dealer discount is $27,922.46 and $2,999 of that is your money - so your price is $30,991.46 . Invoice looks to be $31,604 so your price is $612.54 under invoice. Edmunds incentive page shows no incentives, but carsdirect shows their price $1,500 under invoice and it has been posted here there is $2,000 in dealer money. So $612 under invoice is not that good of a price.

    So the rate is high as is the price = so not that hot a deal.

    Keep in mind this is a SUGGESTED deal - say you get the dealer to drop the price $1,000 more, then you would just pay $1,000 less at signing and still have the $349 payment. Or you could pay nothing at signing and have a larger payment.

    If you check at leasecompare, they will do the same car for the same price for 36 months, 0.00258 MF, but $19,165 residual (55%). A lower rate, but $1,045 less residual so the net is your payment would be higher ($389). This is a case of the real world residual being less than the captive one.

    If you did a lease/buy using the Honda deal you would save $40 each month on the lease (plus tax) or $1,440 over the life of the lease (plus tax). At the current capitalone lease buy out rate, the extra $1,045 in residual would cost you $32.87 per month if financed for 36 months (plus tax) or $1,183.32 over the life of the loan. If you financed for 48 months it would be $25.88 per month (plus tax) for 48 months or $1,242.24. So it would APPEAR that taking the higher rate and higher residual (given CURRENT buy out finance rates) you would be a little off. For sure if you did not buy the car at lease end you would be better off.

    The stellar credit part only applies to the lease deal and MF, not to the residual or discounted price.

    I think I would wait and see if they sweeten the pot. The 3rd party lease residuals have dropped to more real-world numbers that reflect the loss of retained value of the S2000 (the first few years it was a STRONG residual car and SWEET lease deal). So even getting the car well under invoice your 3rd party numbers are not that good. Even if you deal the price down and take the Honda finance, you still have to put down $3k or more and have a $349+tax payment. The old special was less money down and a $299+tax payment due to its much lower money factor.

    Run the numbers for yourself, I just did this quick and dirty so may have messed something up :D

    Dennis
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    someone needs to start negotiating wtih a dealer and see how low they can really go.

    i KNOW peole have been leasing the S2000 for roughly invoice, or barely over it. they aren't selling well AT ALL.

    now if this "lease special" is really honda kicknig in another 3000 into the pot...then assuming invoice is around 30k...you should be able to get ZERO down and a cap cost of roughly 27k. plus drive offs....

    using the MSRP and the residual value - it looks like Honda is using 58% as the residual value. for the 12k/36 lease advertised.

    the advertised special though assumes that almost $4000 due at signing. that's BS. if Honda is kicking in 3k, and dealers WERE selling at invoice, I don't see why you cant now get them 3k UNDER invoice.

    i don't know the MF is, but assuming it's what it was been in the past... you are looking at payments around $366 with NOTHING down.

    put down the $4000 they are askign or, and assume $1000 or so goes to drive offs, and about $3000 more goes to additional cap cost reduction, and you should be more at $268 with tax...

    or am i just dreaming??

    when i leased my MDX it was after seeing an "advertised" lease special on the website..and once i started calling around....i had NO problem getting a better deal than what the website offered...making me thing you can always do better than what honda's website says...

    i would think you could get that advertised monthly rate but with NO money down.

    anyone agree/disagree???
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    Dennis,

    I have to know what you do. I'm not 100% confident in my lease calculator not to mention I'm still learning the terminology. I have to keep going back and forth on my references. Are you using a web site for the lease calculations? If so, would you mind posting it? I'm using leaseguide.com.

    The local dealer here is selling the S at invoice - $2000. Somehow I've got two salespeople working with me and they are giving me different numbers. One person said OTD of 30,100 and the other said 31,694 (numbers are approximate). Does TTL of about $2100 sound about right?

    If you check at leasecompare, they will do the same car for the same price for 36 months, 0.00258 MF, but $19,165 residual (55%). A lower rate, but $1,045 less residual so the net is your payment would be higher ($389). This is a case of the real world residual being less than the captive one.

    Going through Leasecompare.com, is it that straightforward? Sounds too easy.
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    what I am trying to figure out is what kind of incentive or rebate is Honda actually offering to the dealers?

    is this just Honda's way of saying they will sell the car at or near invoice....or is there actual MONEY on the table goign to the dealers? i've seen several posts here where people have leased/purchased S2000s at invoice..or barely over it..and there was NO dealer cash. if all of a sudden Honda is kicking in more money to move the cars, that should simplyb e money in OUR pocket...and the bottom line will adjust down by exactly how much cash Honda is adding to the pot.

    i emailed one local dealer and got a BS email that the "lease special" doesn't apply to California.. yeah sure... what jerks.

    walk into a car dealer and ask how much and they will lie, cheat, steal and jerk you around as far as they can.

    negotiate hard, only deal via email/phone/fax... and NEVER set foot on their stinkin' lot until you have hard copy printouts from 2-3 dealers...and can really play them off one another. once they sense you are SERIOSU and will pull the trigger..and they know you have other alternatives...to go buy the car cheaper..you will quickly find otu what the REAL bottom line is...

    :)
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    i am cross shopping the RX8 and S2000....i like the S MORE as i know it has more performance and i really want a convertible... but the RX8 has been a cheaper car...some were selling at the 27k price range... and so the S wa always more money...and this is going to be a toy car....totally unnecessary...so every cent i can save might make it more likely to convince the wifey to pull the trigger on it.

    I have both, actually on my 2nd S2000 so what do you want to know?

    The 8 backseat is usuable by small folks and tighter for anyone larger - the seat behind the driver is not usable at all if the drive has the seat well back. The trunk is a bit larger, but the small, oddly shaped opening limits access. The rotary is SMOOTH and gladly revs to redline, but drinks oil (by design) and drinks LOTS of premium gas. With a VooDoo knob the 6 speed tranny is just sweet - actually BETTER than the S2000 with the same knob installed. Looks "richer" inside than the S. Resale value seriously hurls (hey, they can't sell them NEW so you know used ones are worth little). Reliability is a serious concern - there is even a recall that may replace the entire engine. The stereo is not much, even with the Bose in my GT. Odd set up means no easy/cheap way to upgrade.

    The S2000 is just two seats, decent trunk room, little cabin storage space and more of a "raw" sports car. Needs premium too, but sips in comparison. Mostly Honda reliable - much more so that the 8. Resale value was super strong, now just above average (I would say). The best part - the top goes down. Standard DIN stereo is not much, but can be easily upgraded (high powered Pio MP3 deck and Polk components in the doors = nice sound). I have have a Modifry control gizmo so the dash stereo controls work the Pio deck.

    I get 14-15 mpg commuting in the RX-8, around 19-20mpg on a trip (fill up, drive Interstate, fill up).

    I get 23-24 mph commuting in the S2000, around 27-28 on a trip (all with the top down).

    My commute is about 25 miles round trip and about 1/2 stop and go and 1/2 freeway. The 394hp M5 I used to have got around 13-15mpg on the same commute - the 8 is not NEARLY as large or powerful but slurps the gas at the same rate.

    Trade on an 05 S with 10k miles is around $23,625. An 05 8 with GT pack and Navi (like mine) with 10k miles has a trade in of around $17,925. The original price on both was about the same.

    If you go to leasecompare.com and check out a lease, they use ALG (industry standard) residuals. A 3 year lease on a new 2007 RX-8 GT shows a residual of 48%. The same lease term on a new 2007 S2000 shows 55%. This is a large difference - the leasing industry has a LOT more faith in the S retaining value than the RX-8.

    In another example, my captive (Mazda Credit) lease residual is LESS on a 24 month lease than the current captive (Honda Credit) lease on a 36 month lease! Honda thinks their car will be worth more in 36/36k than Mazda does in 24/24k!

    All that said, Mazda is desperate to get rid of the 8s so you can get a deep discount on them. But Honda is pretty hot to rid themselves of S2000s as well, but not has hard-pressed as Mazda is (and has been for several years).

    If I had to pick one, no question I keep the S2000. I love mine. I like the 8 as well and I am thinking of buying mine at lease end - IF I can talk MAC down on the buyout price. Current trade is a good bit less than the buyout so it is not a "good deal" at the stated price.

    Dennis
  • Ok guys, I just called my local dealer (where I leased my '05 S2K, which I dont have anymore) and my salesman didnt even know the S2K lease special started today, funny huh. So I told him to work some numbers, and give me the best, final price he can, knowing that I am a returning customer. I also told him I want the price of the car reduced, and I want a quote for a 3yr and 4yr lease with 0 down, and super preferred tier. He said I should have an answer within an hour or two...I'll keep you guys posted.
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    I used LeaseIt! on my Palm Pilot and also an online calculator on a web page of mine.

    I don't know OTD from nothing. I always ask for quotes that include the car, destination, and any dealer doc/prep fees. I can figure the rest for myself.

    Keep in mind for a lease your OTD does not mean anything anyway, since for most of us that taxes on leases are not the same on a purchase.

    Invoice shows as $31,604 - $2,000 = $29,604. If you plug that price into leasecompare you get a 36/36k lease for $440+tax with just $440+tax due at signing (buy default they roll the lease acq fee and $99 doc fee into the lease). With an extra $3,600 due at signing ($3931 total due at signing, to make it like the Honda deal) the payments would be $331 per month plus tax.

    It is that easy, I have leased with them a few times when the numbers said it was a better deal and had a great experience. I have also sold a couple of off-lease cars through them to avoid the double tax problem - again with nice results.

    If you plug your price into the Honda deal, I come up with $416.09 payment + tax with nothing due at signing other than first payment. This is VS the $440 from leasecompare, if I did the numbers right. If you put down an extra $3,600 the payments would drop to $306.19 + tax (VS $331). That higher residual more than offsets the slightly lower MF.

    If you were going to do the deal NOW, I would do it at $2k under invoice and use the Honda MF and residual. If for some reason you can't, then you could do the deal via leasecompare and still come out OK.

    In contrast, lets say they had a 1.9% deal but not $2k, if you lease at invoice and 1.9% your payment would be $376 per month + tax with just $376 + tax due at signing. If you put another $3,600 down (to make it like the other deals) it would drop to $274 per month. The old special called for less down and a payment of $299 per month + tax.

    So paying $2k more and getting a cheaper lease MF would net a better deal - IF they bring that deal back.

    Dennis
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    As I have shown, there is no "lease special" - it is the same old high money factor that have been running for a while. It is a PUBLISHED deal and does factor in the dealer taking money off MSRP without you haggling AND factors in the (it seems) $2,000 in factory to dealer money.

    Others have state they were offered the car for invoice less the $2k - and we know what the lease numbers are now. Will that be what your folks give you? We will see.

    Dennis
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    You just provided me with confidence in my lease calc (and I'll need to download that app for my palm). I ran the same scenario (MF vs. $2000 incentive) and came to the same conclusion.
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    Dennis-

    which one is faster? i get the impression that both cornering, and in a straight line, the S2000 is quite a bit quicker. the 0-60 times are close, but if you look at 0-100 or quarter mile, it looks like once you hit third gear the S2000 will walk away from the rX8.

    which one is more PURE FUN to just get in and blast around in? you think the S2000 is better or the RX8 smoothness is better?

    the RX8 is probably a softer ride, perhaps better for a daily driver...while the S2000 is the one to get if you want a car to just have FUN.

    i have two kids..plus #3 coming. we have a large SUV as the main family car...and our second car (which I drive now) is a large sedan that could fit the whole family + stuff if we needed it to. i like having two cars that will haul the whole family. i am tempted to sell/trade the second car (only wroth maybe $5k) to fund the next car. only problem is..given my family size...even though we have one good/new/large SUV...having a two seater as our second car would be kind of stupid. i'd never be able to take anyone anywhere..... the RX8 *might* work...it wouldn't fit 3 kids..but it would fit one or two easily..so it would have somewhat more practicaly than the S2000 but not a lot.

    Dennis - do you have kids? do you think the RX8 really is all that more practical than a two seater..or do you find the rear seats/trunk are basically as useless as the S2000? am i mistaken for thinking an RX8 woulc be capable as a "second" car for a person with kids?

    part of me thinks the RX8 migth be more usable...but then again...i tried to fit a carseat in teh back seat and it would only fit if the seat was all the way forward..which mean i could fit it on the passenger side..with NO front passenger...but no way i could fit wife, and two kids in the back if one was in a big car seat/carrier thing...

    so i'm ultimately thinking that i'll probably wind up keeping my $5k beater as the to/from work car, spare vehicle...and whatever i wind up buying will be a third car/fun car for me...and if that's teh real case..then it's an S2000 all the way...as long as the cost to lease/buy is similar to the RX8.

    one reason i had looked at the 8 was that tey were a lot cheaper. you coudl get a loaded up model for $26-27k...and the S was at least 30k.... if i sold my $5k car..that would make the RX8 really like a 20-21k car... in net dollars...but that's only if i made the 8 the second "family" car and the more i read about it the less i think it would really be able to serve that purpose...

    both of them are really toy cars..very little practicality...and if i get somethign for pure fun, no doubts the S2000 is better suited for that.

    thanks for all that info!!
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    the $5k car would actually net more since you could drop the insurance, maintenance cost, etc. Depending on your age of kids though, the $5k car might make a good first car of your oldest kid. Especially being a large sedan from a safety standpoint, let along with the price of gas today, they wont be driving too far! :)
  • 23109vc23109vc Posts: 218
    you mean quit paying maintenance/insurance on the $5k car...effectively making having THREE cars MORe expensive due to having to pay for THREE ot two? :) i know.

    that's why i've toyed with the idea of dumping my sedan and getting an RX8. it's not as fun/fast as an S2000..but i *might* be able to make it work for my needs.

    my oldest is 5...so no need to save a car for him yet...

    i don't take the kids to school, and they aren't in daycare. wife is stay at home mom. so i only need wheels to/from work. i don't really *need* a second car to haul the family..we have a brand new MDX for that...it would just be nice to have a second car that had SOME practicality...

    but honstly...if I did just say F'it...and sold my sedan..and got an S2000 as the second car..it's not like we would have problems... daddy drives his fun to to work/back.. mommy has a new MDX to haul the kids which we all drive in together after work and on weekends.

    i'd just be in trouble if teh SUV had a dead battery and the wife was in a rush to take the kids somewhere...unlikely scenario...but could happen.

    plus...i don't really need 3 cars. it's more to maintain, insure, etc. and while i make good money...i am not made of it and having a third "toy" car would mean less money for other things that really are more urgent...i could really rationalize a new second car..no maintenance, no repair bills.... just a car payment.... but a third car is a harder sell..not just on the wife but on me.. don't really need it.

    thanks for the info on S vs. RX Dennis. i think i'd much rather have an S2000...but i was looking at the 8 as it would be sort of a compromise. small, nice handling, fun to drive, high revving..a lot lie the S in some respects...only no top down :( but has back seats that would make it somewhat practical....as opposed to a totally impractical two seater roadster... hmmm...
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    Here is a link to Lease-It!

    Free trial demo, $10 to buy and WELL worth it. You should see the F&I guy's eyes pop when I pull out my Palm device (currently a Palm+cell phone) and run the numbers while they watch. So can save a whole bunch of schenarios and call them up to compare. "don't lease without it" as they say.

    The formula is not hard, but doing it in a hurry and not forgetting anything and punching in the right numbers is the hard part. You should always check it yourself, I or anyone else could post a bad number and lead you astray.

    Dennis
  • Heres what they said so far: With the 2k incentive, the price of the car is $30,787.16

    0 down, 36 month lease, 12k miles $470 month + tax
    0 down, 48 month lease, 12k miles $430 month + tax

    I told him to tell me what the residuals and money factors are, and also to see if he can do any better on the monthly payment, so I am waiting for a call back....

    Meanwhile, I would greatly appreciate any input on this deal, is it worth going for?
  • dwynnedwynne Posts: 4,018
    It is hard to say. I think under track conditions the S bests the 8 and the 350z both from tests I have read. Neither the S or the 8 has any torque to speak of so you have to pay attention and drive it and keep the revs up.

    My wife and I go "riding" in the S when the weather is nice, we don't do that in the 8. While it is a fun car, it is not "lets just go riding" fun to us.

    Our kids are mostly all grown now (26, 18, 16) and all way too tall to sit behind me in the 8 and just BARELY able to sit one behind the other in the 8. If you are short(er) you could kit a kid behind you in the 8 - for sure in a car seat. There is no airbag cut off in either car (keep in mind I have 05s, so it may be different now) so you would not want to take small child in the front of either - and no car seats up there. You could fit two kids (of the right sizes) fore and aft in the passenger side with ease.

    I was driving a sedan, then started getting a nice day convertible as a second car (Miata M, c5 'vette, 01 S, 05 S). Once the gets got older and were getting cars of their own and since my wide has a new Accord, I settled on the 8 as my "sedan". Mostly just me, but room for more in a pinch. I was also keeping a snow day/bad weather car - a Scooby-Doo Legacy AWD wagon (hey, I had a c5 'vette convertible and an M5 - which would YOU drive in the snow?) but I got rid of it and got a Scion xB. I loved the design and they dropped it and re-did it (not nearly as cute). So that and 4 snows = snow day car, and a spare car for the rest of the family (I got the auto so anyone could drive it) and I have lots of room to carry folks and stuff if I need to. Hey, I even have a 14 year old T-100 pickup for trips to the dump and hauling stuff. The right tool for the job, that is my motto :D

    The 8 is a softer ride, but still gobs of road feel. The S even more feel but even rougher ride - but it rarely bothers me as the car is "tight" but I can see where it would put some off. What I did was to find a well used, broken in example of each and "test drive" the heck out of them before I purchased. You don't want to drive a new car that hard and it may not feel the same after some miles either. I decided I could live with both.

    With the weak reliability, poor mileage, and poor resale value it would be hard for me to recommend someone get a new 8. If you could get a left-over 06 for WAY under invoice or pick up a lightly used one (like mine) for cheap then it would be OK. The S is just more fun, super mileage for the performance, top down, better resale, better reliability and something I can recommend. But I don't have to drive yours or pay for it, you do :D

    Dennis
  • acceleratoraccelerator Posts: 136
    My wife wants me to keep the truck for runs to Home Depot but I want the S (we cant have kids). My idea of compromise would be to get a small utility trailer which could be towed by her car or dare I say it, the S. Home Depot is 1.6 miles and all we ever get from there are 4x8 plywood or shrubs, mulch, that kind of stuff. The 4x8's would fit in her suv and mulch could be put in the S's trunk in a pinch (OR we can alway rent the truck from HD).

    I drive over 60 miles a day so the improvement in gas mileage alone offsets the increase in insurance not to mention better for the environment... yeah, she isn't buying it either. :)
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