Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





BMW 3-Series Run Flat Tires

13536384041102

Comments

  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,380
    Excellent! Here's wishing you all the best to get what you want. Keep us posted of your experiences.

    Regards,
    OW
  • xeyexeye Posts: 162
    Thank you! You've (all) been a big help. I OWe you, especially you, OW!

    I've sent the link to my sales guy, so he's been put on notice. I'd be surprised if he wasn't already aware. Now it's up to BMW to do the right stuff. I will definitely keep all advised. Stay tuned.

    Happy motoring, and may the speed traps be set up after you're long gone!

    xeye
  • georgei2georgei2 Posts: 3
    Hi Everyone:

    My wife has had 3 3X series and I was contemplating a new 328xi acquisition from BMW Peabody MA.

    When I saw the car didn't have a spare, and they claimed Run Time Spare was the new technolgy I got nervous and curious and did my research on the Web.

    Thank you all I found you, and your comments, obviously I will not be pursuing my purchase towards the 328xi. Had I not found this Web page I would have go on and make the same decision you all did.

    I am in high tech sales myself I think the RTS is ahead of its time and the infrastructure to support it its not there yet, this car is for my wife and I just can't feel comfortable without a spare.

    I believe BMW gambled that the 3 series is/was so popular that they took a gamble on this technology.

    Thanks again to all, you sure saved me a lot af aggravation.... good luck on your tire/dealer engagements...

    GI
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "When I saw the car didn't have a spare, and they claimed Run Time Spare was the new technolgy I got nervous and curious and did my research on the Web."

    Ummm, please tell us, what did your Web research tell you about a "Run Time Spare"?

    FWIW, I've been a fan and driver of BMWs for years and I have yet to hear of this new technology that you speak of. I'd love to know before I make the same mistake of buying a 328i. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • georgei2georgei2 Posts: 3
    Hi Shipo:

    On paper RTS looks and sounds great...but the reality is different from what you can read from the people on this page who actually have lived thru somne of the issues and experiences of BMW 3 RTS.

    Let me see if I ca summarize what I read:

    -Sound problems with the tires.
    -poor handling,
    -low life cycle just 15K or less miles,
    -no repair buy a new one if damaged,
    -few places can replace such tires
    -special machines and training are necessary , if stuck in the middle of nowwhere you can't find such tires.
    -Problems in dealing with tire manufacturers abd BMW dealers.
    -EXPENSIVE proposition in replacing the tires.

    Maybe I missed my readings but all these factors make me say bye bye to BMW until they solve these problems.

    In my mind from what I read about RTS is NOT worth at all on the benefits against the risks/expenses.

    My wife has had 3 3 series and me 3 7 series
    but this RTS technology is just too much to swallow I just don't see the risk/reward equation.

    I would never feel comfortable in taking a trip even from Boston to New York thinking what would happen if something goes wrong on I84. Imagine if you are in Texas going from Houston to El Paso and the light saying you have 50 miles of life at 50MPH is on....

    I will never subscribe to that, I think again BMW gambled on a technology ahead of its time, RTS and that technology need the US infrastructure to be ready for it (garages, inventory, know how) and today is not there, however I believe 10 years from now everything will be in place.

    On the other hand like us you say 90% of the time you are in a Metropolitan area like Boston area, but why even gamble with that 10% when you decide to go to a remote lake location and should something happen go thru the horror stories you will find on this Web page, without even considering the noise and performace issues.

    In my own opinion, that is a risk I am not willing to take.

    Good luck in your decision, and thanks again for your feedback.

    GI
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Ummm, okay, now I need to give you some more feedback.

    1) There is no such a thing as RTS, period, full stop, the end.
    2) What BMW is using on all 3-Series cars and most (but not all) 5-Series cars is a technology called Run Flat Tires (RFTs for short).
    3) Some of the folks who have opted for a Sport Package version of the cars have complained of a harsher ride but seemingly not all.
    4) There is zero evidence to suggest that the summer performance RFTs that come on SP equipped cars have a shorter lifespan than the similarly sized and endowed GFTs of previous generation BMWs.
    5) The folks who have non-SP equipped cars seem to have universally complained about many aspects of the original Bridgestone All-Season RFTs, that said, Continental RFTs seem to be much better received and the jury is still out on the allegedly revised All-Season Bridgestones.
    6) By all accounts, the All-Season Continental RFTs are good for an easy 30,000 to 40,000 miles, far beyond the 15,000 miles you state.
    7) There is no special training required to mount an RFT on a BMW rim as compared to the training required to mount a GFT on the same rim. Said another way, any place capable of mounting a tire on a BMW rim can mount an RFT on the same rim and NO special machines or training are required.
    8) Contrary to what you may have heard, RFTs can be repaired in the same manner as GFTs, assuming of course you don't drive too far on the tire with the low pressure.
    9) I make the trip between Boston and New York many times per year and I agree with you that I wouldn't want to make that run with only four RFTs between me and a tire problem. That said, if I was to opt for a 3-Series BMW I'd immediately change the tires out for a set of four conventional GFTs and then buy a can of "Spare Tire in a Can" or other flat tire repair aerosol. Should a flat tire occur, I'd use the can and then have the tire either fixed or replaced.
    10) Instead of a 3-Series you might want to consider a 5-Series, that car was designed before BMW started using RFTs and still sports a spare tire well and even a spare tire from the factory.

    As a suggestion, before you decide what risks you are willing to take, you might want to make sure your facts are correct first.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • georgei2georgei2 Posts: 3
    Hi Shipo:

    Thanks for your feedback and for correcting me on the RTF nomenclature, but you forgot to address several key issues.

    -BIG price differential of the RTF tires vs normal tires.
    -Change tires to take a trip to NYC? are you for real... this is a 3 series for my wife and I have to change tires before a simple trip.
    -Buy a can of Spare tire in a can before taking a trip or other tire repair areosol...no way

    On paper the benefits of RTF are not worth it, you also conveniently didn't address the noise and performace problems stated on this Web page.

    In any case I have made my mind not to pursue the 328ix so hopefully you will make the best decision for yourself assuming you are a real buyer.

    GI
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,043
    There is a LOT of racket about RFT on the Internet. None of it good either. It's not a product I would personally enjoy defending at this point, given what I've seen. Of course, I do agree that there is both good and mis-information on the subject, but then, welcome to the Internet!

    At best, it seems like this is a technology one has to "nurse" or "accomodate", which is, if you think about it, the very thing RFTs were supposed to avoid. THey are supposed to eliminate worry and hassle, not cause it.

    Visiting Host

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "-BIG price differential of the RTF tires vs normal tire."

    For a 328xi tires in the size of 205/55 R16 are recommended. In that size, conventional All-Season GFTs run between about $90 and $110, the Continental ContiProContact SSR RFTs cost $111. Hmmm, BIG price difference?

    "-Change tires to take a trip to NYC? are you for real... this is a 3 series for my wife and I have to change tires before a simple trip."

    I think you missed my point. What I was suggesting was chucking the RFTs alltogether and replacing them with GFTs for the duration of owning the car. Then when you sell it, or at lease end, put the RFTs back on.

    "-Buy a can of Spare tire in a can before taking a trip or other tire repair areosol...no way"

    Why not? That is standard issue on many high end cars these days (can you say Porsche?). The cans work well and are a hell of a lot easier to use than changing a tire. Your wife might actually appreciate this alternative.

    "On paper the benefits of RTF are not worth it, you also conveniently didn't address the noise and performace problems stated on this Web page."

    Sure I did. Virtually every complaint I've seen regarding the noise has been related to the early Bridgestone All-Season RFTs. I have yet to see any such complaints about the Continental RFTs and the jury is still out on the revised Bridgestones. Regarding the performance, by most accounts these tires perform pretty well, not quite as good as GFTs mind you, but not horrible bad either.

    "...assuming you are a real buyer."

    Nah, I'm just some twelve year old snot nose kid who doesn't have a clue about real cars. :P

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Ok I know RFT = Run Flat Tire so does GFT = Go Flat Tire? :D
    Seriously tho, what does it stand for?
    I'd ditch the horrible RFT's and put on regular tires and buy 5 rims but what do you do for a spare and where the heck will you be able to keep it in a 1 or 3 series?
    I know you can use a can but in general the cans can only fix certain things if you lose a sidewall you're walking.
    Also what do you do if the tires in th front are a different size than the back?
    I like the idea of the 135i but hate RFT's.
    Suggestions?
  • dkg42dkg42 Posts: 11
    Can you back up this statement?
    "8) Contrary to what you may have heard, RFTs can be repaired in the same manner as GFTs, assuming of course you don't drive too far on the tire with the low pressure.

    BMW and Bridgestone clearly state the opposite position

    ..I had a nail in one of the replacement RFTs after 4500 miles., the orignals were from the defective batch, still had to pay $350 to the dealer as they had more that 10k miles.

    When I found out I was going to have to buy yet another tire due to the nail, I hit the roof. However ,I was luckly as the dealer scored the hell out of the rim replacing the tire..got the dealer to pay for it and they have to repair the damage to the rim.

    I want non-RFT tire and BMW should be forced to provide the spare,rim and jacks for all of us who got ripped off by their stupid experiment starting with the 06 models
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Yes, GFT is Go Flat Tire. You might read back in this discussion to see how some members approach the no-spare issue when replacing the RFTs. Shipo addresses this just a couple of posts ago, and others have discussed it over time. The search feature would help you pinpoint the posts.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Can you back up this statement?
    "8) Contrary to what you may have heard, RFTs can be repaired in the same manner as GFTs, assuming of course you don't drive too far on the tire with the low pressure."


    Check back through this very discussion, there are a number of accounts where folks have had their RFTs repaired.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    "Ok I know RFT = Run Flat Tire so does GFT = Go Flat Tire?" :D

    I coined the abbreviation a couple of years back and at the time I was using "Gets Flat Tire", however, "Go Flat Tire" works equally well. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    While recent posts of mine might give the casual observer that I am defending BMWs choice to experiment on their customer base with RFTs, nothing could be further from the truth. I am NOT a fan of RFTs in any way shape or form. On the 3-Series, BMW chose to compound that lapse in judgment (IMHO) by not including space for a spare tire. Dumb, and dumb again (IMHO).

    With the above in mind, why would I then write some of the things that I've recently written? Simple, to clarify the actual facts of the situation. So, would I buy a new RFT shod BMW? Possibly. Were I to buy one, would I immediately replace the RFTs with GFTs? In a heartbeat.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 144
    Shipo

    I agree with most of your 10-point answer. Except this one...

    7) There is no special training required to mount an RFT on a BMW rim as compared to the training required to mount a GFT on the same rim. Said another way, any place capable of mounting a tire on a BMW rim can mount an RFT on the same rim and NO special machines or training are required.

    RFT tire mounting machines (and I'm not talking PAX) are different. Hunter, Coats and all the others sell higher capacity (and more expensive) units designed to deal with the stiffer sidewalls found on RFTs. Because of the popularity of "dubs" and ultra-low profile GFTs, these machines are common in certain geographical areas. But they are by no means EVERYPLACE. Dealers and high-volume stores will be so-equipped, but smaller outfits might not have the right equipment.

    As for the training, there is some, but it is minimal. When I bought my RFT-compatible Hunter, the Hunter representative conducted a 90-minute hands-on training session - most of it dealing with the the subject of RFTs and ultra-low profile tires.

    DE

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    My point was that most if not every shop that is capable of mounting GFTs on BMW wheels (without tearing them up that is) is also capable of mounting RFTs. I checked and even my local BMW indy shop has the necessary equipment to mount the low profile GFTs and RFTs.

    That said, your point is well taken, if a shop has older/lesser equipment that was designed for mounting rubber on a Tarus, mounting low profile RFTs could be problematic. The question I have then is, "Would you allow that same shop to mount a 255/35 R18 (GFT or RFT) on the rear rim of a 335i SP?"

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,043
    I think Shipo is right. If the shop is competent and has taken the time to do the right procedure, there's no problem and they don't have to go to college to do an RFT; but like a friend of mine used to say about incompetent shops: "That place could screw up a paperclip".

    So I guess it's less than "special training" but more than base-level tire knowledge, that's required here.

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 144
    This comment highlights a run-flat reality that most consumers are not aware of:

    On the 3-Series, BMW chose to compound that lapse in judgment (IMHO) by not including space for a spare tire.

    Consumers are drawn to RFTs because of the promise of never ever being stranded in a dangerous neighborhood with a flat tire. Water cooler conversations I've had with other married men at work usually start like this: "I wouldn't want my wife to have to stop by the side of the road..." A very compelling and gut-level point of view.

    Car Manufacturers usually specify RFTs to solve certain design/packaging problems. I've personally talked to product planners for three of the examples below.

    In one case, I was employed by the company and directly involved in the advanced planning meetings. In that discussion actual safety was a "bonus" - not the primary driving factor. All of the negatives that people complain about on this forum were aired-out in that meeting but ultimately ignored because those fears were considered speculative at the time.

    MINI wanted to use a center-exit exhaust design on the Cooper S. Center exit here = no room for a spare tire well.
    VIPER (and other) designers simply didn't make room for a spare.
    SIENNA AWD minivans lost the spare-tire location because of intrusion by the rear propeller shaft. The spare location was already compromised due to the disappearing third-row seat.
    BMW (and just about everyone else) wants to save weight.

    In few cases is the RFT decision made by a manufacturer for the same reasons as their own customers. This point-of-view disconnect is the main reason why so many consumers are unhappy (or become unhappy later on) with their RFTs.

    Even though most of use would warm up to the idea of a RFT vehicle with a spare (or a spare tire location), manufacturers fail to see the point (or reject the point outright) because it doesn't match-up with their own justification for installing RFTs: They need the space for another purpose and they want to save weight. (Saving weight is not to be sneezed at, because if a car can be dropped into a lower EPA weight class, it positively affects the parameters of the emissions and MPG rating tests.)

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • actualsizeactualsize Santa Ana, CaliforniaPosts: 144
    That said, your point is well taken, if a shop has older/lesser equipment that was designed for mounting rubber on a Tarus, mounting low profile RFTs could be problematic. The question I have then is, "Would you allow that same shop to mount a 255/35 R18 (GFT or RFT) on the rear rim of a 335i SP?"

    I understand. But you don't always have a choice where you have a flat, do you? I can think of several western US locales where you wouldn't be in the RFT range of a suitable dealer. And the greater RFT discussion ranges far beyond the BMW case this thread covers.

    Twitter: @Edmunds_Test

  • I'll support the issues stated....

    -Sound problems with the tires. YES
    -poor handling, YES
    -low life cycle just 15K or less miles, YES
    -no repair buy a new one if damaged, YES, read comments attached
    -few places can replace such tires YES here in the UK very few approved stations. Exploding rims!!!!
    -special machines and training are necessary , if stuck in the middle of nowwhere you can't find such tires. YES & YES
    -Problems in dealing with tire manufacturers and BMW dealers.DEFINITE YES
    -EXPENSIVE proposition in replacing the tires. YES

    I can add 'evidence' to all the above points as identified here in the UK.

    But on the repair issue... there is total confusion here in the UK from all bodies involved. Start with our Tyre Industry Council!!!!!

    I add 2 example quotes.

    Repairing run-flat tyres

    Run-flat tyres have specially reinforced sidewalls enabling them to perform whilst deflated for a limited distance and speed as already mentioned. In the course of running in a deflated or significantly under inflated condition, the tyre structure is subjected to high stresses and therefore may become weakened and permanently damaged rendering the tyre both unsuitable and unsafe to repair.

    When a standard tyre is run in a deflated condition there are visible signs which indicate that damage to the tyre's structure has occurred. Because of the reinforced sidewall structure of a run-flat tyre these telltale signs are likely to be masked and not visible even if they are present. Even a fully qualified tyre repairer may not be able to detect run flat damage to a tyre. For these reasons alone and in the interests of safety the British Rubber Manufacturers' Association, the body representing the major tyre manufacturing companies, does not recommend repairs to a run flat tyre. The advice from individual manufacturers of run flat tyres may differ however and motorists are advised to check with the tyre company for any different advice.

    Following the announcement last week that ATS Euromaster (ATSE) plans to launch a nationwide run-flat fitting and puncture repair service the company has issued a statement clarifying their position.

    The main point that ATSE clarified is the fact that it is referring to the latest generation of self-supporting run-flat technology tyres manufactured by Bridgestone, Dunlop, Goodyear and Michelin. These, says the company, are “approved for minor repairs, subject to strict criteria.”

    Before any repair can be carried out, the tyre technician must check with the customer how long the tyre has been in a deflated condition. If it has driven over 50 miles, or exceeded 50mph, ATSE says it cannot be repaired.
    Technicians must also verify that the tyre is approved by the manufacturer to be repaired and that the repair is then performed in line with the British Standard for tyre repairs - BSAU 159f. If the tyre fails the thorough pre-repair examinations then it must be replaced.
    What are the minor repairs ATSE is referring to? A typical minor repair would comprise a nail which has pierced the central area of the tread. If the inspection process highlights any more serious damage, including any of the aforementioned abnormalities, then the tyre must be replaced.
    According to an official statement on the subject, ATS Euromaster’s repair policy is “in agreement with both the National Tyre Distributors Association and the British Tyre Manufacturers Association on the positioning of repairing run-flat technology tyres.”
    In an effort to clarify the position for both the trade and consumers the NTDA warned that the repairing of run-flats was a ‘complicated issue’ that needed revisiting by key trade bodies.
    Richard Edy NTDA Director said:-
    “Whilst the Tyre Industry Federation (TIF) has not yet considered this matter, the British Tyre Manufacturers Association (BTMA) have issued a statement on behalf of their members, recommending that repairs are not carried out on run flat tyres except where the history of the tyre is absolutely clear and that the manufacturer condones repairing,” NTDA director, Richard Edy explained.
    He said the view of the NTDA is to comply with this statement. “However, we appreciate the right of any member to decide whether or not to repair a tyre. Of fundamental importance is the detailed inspection of the tyre and clear knowledge of the distance and speed following deflation.
    “Because of the unique construction of all run-flat tyres it is extremely difficult to identify secondary damage caused by running the tyre in the deflated state, therefore extreme caution needs to be taken when considering repairing any run flat unit,” he added.
    In its statement, the NTDA, as a core member of the Tyre Industry Federation, has called on the TIF to give commercial and environmental consideration to this whole subject and provide “more clear workable guidelines for retailers.”
    Repair materieal suppliers have also joined in the debate and the following statement was issued by Apaseal:

    ‘As a leading tyre repair material manufacturer Apaseal repair materials have been subject to exhaustive tests in relation to the repairs to Run Flat tyres, in both the UK and Overseas markets.

    'As a provider of a complete tyre maintenance programme, our aim is to provide the Tyre Technician with the material and training that will enable his customer to maximize the return on his investment in tyres, and provide longevity safely, with minimum effect on the environment.

    'Repairs can be carried out in accordance with British Standards and the Tyre Manufacturer’s recommendation, strictly following the detailed inspection process that is critical if the tyre is to be safely repaired and returned to service.’

    A special edition of the NTDA Technical Bulletin featureing run flat repairs is currently being produced for ciirculation to members next month (February) and the Association is also hosting a meeting of all interested parties to discuss possible revision to the currently British Standard on Tyre Repair BSAU 159.

    That's just a start....

    HighlandPete
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,380
    Your point on the decision making process is well taken.

    Even with the extra weight, a space-saver spare would do well to return some of the customer satisfaction lost by this decision. The engineers can do it...the question is will the bean-counters let them.

    Regards,
    OW
  • adethieradethier Posts: 16
    Our RFT shredded after 30 miles! talk about a 'safe' technology. 3 hours of waiting and towing. All for what??? save a little weight on the car... to save fuel? (quickly made up by the tow truck diesel bill). If BMW claims they can design the best cars, do it with room for a spare -- challenge your designers a little instead of creating inconveniences for customers.
    We passed on the new 3 series convertible because there is no spare -- actually not even room in the trunk for a donut.

    In all, BMWs are great cars if you plan on driving around town. Forget long trips, forget the great driving adventure.

    BTW, will the new 1-series have a spare?
  • I've read of RFT's in the UK, virtually destroying within a handful of miles after the warning signal sounded.

    How ever good a technology, in its infancy it can be a pain to live with. I prefer options, I would 'pass' on the RFT's until they are really sorted.

    HighlandPete
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    Yes, GFT is Go Flat Tire. You might read back in this discussion to see how some members approach the no-spare issue when replacing the RFTs. Shipo addresses this just a couple of posts ago, and others have discussed it over time. The search feature would help you pinpoint the posts.

    Ok I will try the search thing it didn't work for me before but maybe it will this time. It'd be nice if someone remembered a message # or something.
  • circlewcirclew Posts: 8,380
    Beg to differ but the EL-42 adventure I had was quite equal to the claim of 50 miles. I drove mine for 100 miles with zero pressure @ 65 M.P.H.

    I then got it plugged at the local Goodyear dealer so I could limp along for the 3 days it took to get a replacement.

    I still have the tire which I will keep as a museum piece. It is in excellent shape and I really could have run that thing with the plug, I'm sure...but,alas, I have no backbone for such wagering! :)

    Regards,
    OW
  • stevecebustevecebu Posts: 493
    I searched all the messages all the way back to the very beginning.
    From what I see you can buy a Donut tire from some place and you will also need to buy a jack and a lug wrench.
    You have to store these in the trunk and if you need room for anything else and your trunk is small then you are screwed. :sick:
    I'm more interested in the 135i and I don't think a spare tire will fit in that tiny trunk very well plus you have to lash it all down somehow and keep it from banging around. So if you get a small BMW you will lose most of your trunk due to wanting GFT's.
    I can see the topic went on pretty much throughout the entire length of the forum from beginning til now but nothing conclusive other than what I mentioned.
    Am I missing something here or am I spot on?
    I know the areas i will drive can change the flat on a 1970 pickup truck with no problem but a BMW RFT? I bet some places haven't even heard of what it even is, nevermind having the tools to fix it properly.
    So I'm looking for some suggestions or a link to some place that might provide an answer.
    Thanks.
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    Okay, going back to your original post, I'll respond to the other half that I neglected to respond to earlier.

    I'd ditch the horrible RFT's and put on regular tires and buy 5 rims but what do you do for a spare and where the heck will you be able to keep it in a 1 or 3 series?

    I know you can use a can but in general the cans can only fix certain things if you lose a sidewall you're walking.

    Also what do you do if the tires in th front are a different size than the back?

    I like the idea of the 135i but hate RFT's.

    Suggestions?


    To all of those I'd still answer with the following suggestion:

    http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/conticomfortkit/index.jsp

    Will the above kit allow you to drive when a sidewall has been compromised? Nope. That said, let's look at A) how often side walls are damaged to such an extent that they are incapable of holding air in the tire, and B) what causes such damage and what else gets damaged in the process.

    In the seventy years of combined driving since my wife and I started driving (yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I said I was only twelve, but I was just kidding), we've only managed to damage a sidewall to the point where it wouldn't hold air, once each (one accident avoidance maneuver over a curb and one piece of road junk). Said another way, between the two of us we've driven over a million and a half miles, on roads all over the world, and managed to suffer two flat tire events where the sidewall was damaged.

    As for those two events, in both cases, both tires on one side of the car (right side both times) suffered similar damage and went flat. Yes, both tires, needless to say, the spare tire that was in the car didn't help much.

    With the above in mind, I submit that one would be no worse off or more at risk driving a car with 4 GFTs and the above Continental system than one would be driving a car with five viable GFTs, especially if one of the GFTs was a donut spare.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • shiposhipo Posts: 9,152
    actualsize,

    Would you click on my user ID and drop me a private E-Mail? I have a couple of questions to ask you that are off topic for this discussions.

    Thanks. ;-)

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • idoc2idoc2 Posts: 78
    How much weight do you actually save by omitting a compact spare, jack and lug wrench? 30 1bs? Less than 1% of vehicle weight. From a consumer's point not a compelling argument.
Sign In or Register to comment.