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Hyundai Azera vs Toyota Avalon vs Ford Taurus vs Chevrolet Impala

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  • Just ran a quick tally of all passenger cars from 06 and 05 model years for defects on the NTSB site. When you say Hyundai is not on par with the Japanese Brands take a quick look at this. (Note these are totals of all passenger cars effected by a recall. I did not take the time to differenciate between major and minor issues. I did not have time to include chevy or buick.)

    The list is from Worst to Best:

    Ford 1,145,055 passenger cars.

    Chrysler 985,678 passenger cars (a 14% improvement)

    Toyota 302,203 passenger cars (74% on ford, 70% on Chrysler)

    Honda 299,931 passenger cars (74% on ford, 70% on Chrysler, 1% on toyota)

    Hyundai 271,789 passenger cars (77% on ford, 73% on chrysler, 11% on toyota, 10% on honda)

    VW 116,734 You get the point, although VW sold the fewest vehicle of all of these manufacturers.

    Check out he recalls, while Avalon's were VERY minor, and the 500's was significantly more dangerous, when discussing build quality, it is the media who will not review the facts and continues to distort the overall superiority of Japanese branded automobiles. The raw numbers do not support this claim.

    To 05 Sonata and XG350 were very good cars, neither had a recall, the 06 sonata has no current recalls (yes its still early), the elantra is the culprit for hyundai. But this board is not about the Elantra.

    Japanese brands cannot hide behind the claim that they make cars that are significantly better than everyone else any longer. Better than american brands, yes. Better than Korea, not any more.

    Korea is now the Japan of the 80's and Japan is fast becoming the detroit of the 80's (without the bad build quality overall). In 10 years China will be breathing down the necks of Korea and Japan.

    But I am getting off point a little. You cannot predict the future in regards to potential value of a car, if you could, I would par up with you in Vegas and we could make some huge money, Buy the car that works for you today. If today, the Avalon is worth the price for you, buy it. If you want to save some money today, but the Azera. Non of us knows what will happen in 3 to 5 years anyway (we could be driving only hybrids or green fuel alternatives in 5 years) and that would mean that all the supposed residual value in the world will not help you. Besides in 5 years with increasingly dwindling world oil reserves, it is very likely that larger cars will be an excess no one will be able to afford to run. We may all be in Smart cars or xA's or something similiar getting our 80 miles to the gallon in little commuter rides. :surprise:
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,685
    Would you buy this car?

    A few years ago I was in the market for a new car and was looking at what Honda had. My wife was interested in an SUV and the salesman took me out back to see a CR-V that they had for sale real cheap. I looked at the thing and almost died laughing. Yes it was completely riced out. Body modifications, interior modifications, lighting effect, special paint job, even had a wing. :confuse:

    The salesman told me that they got it from another dealer in a swap and didn't know what they were getting. This guy started off with offering to me for $5 or $6K off of sticker. I basically told the man that they would have to pay me to take it off their hands.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,685
    The list is from Worst to Best:

    This could be a little misleading since we don't know the sevarety of the recalls. I would think that a manufacturer with 250,000 recalls for minor things (say the glove compartment pops open when you hit a big bump) is better than a manufacturer that has 50,000 recalls because of something serious (say engine fires).

    Or what about the odds of the recalled item failing? say that the car is recalled for engine stalling, which is better 100,000 recalls when only 1 in 25 cars has the issue or 75,000 recalls where every other car has the issue?

    My favorite is when my dodge was recalled in the 80's. The reason? Dodge forgot to stamp the little horn icon on the steering wheel.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • LOL!!!!

    That the point in a perfect sense. I know I'll get flamed for what I previously wrote because, lets be honest, no one is going to buy an Avalon, Camry, 500 etc and modify the c##p out of them. Although I would not be suprised to see a few rolling on 24's :D

    The point is, any modifcation to a car will effect the car in the long run. Small tires artificially increase registered speed and engine effort, which in turn wears an engine out quicker, and depending on set up can effect the odometer as well, large tire do the opposite, lowering the odometer perceived milage by a small margin. Over 5 years this could be a large amount of unknown miles. Larger wheels and tires are also often heavier than stock, so while the engine may be lower in rpm for a given speed, increasing speed is a little harder on the engine due to increased overall weight.

    Sure the larger percentage of drivers out there are unlikely to modify a car other than change tire type (snow, all season, brand) but will likely retain the basic size pxxx/rxx etc. But how do you know? I took a very good looking 6 year old chevy pickup in on trade on a durango once. I delivered the durango to the borrower at thier home (anything for a sale), on the way back to the dealer a seal let go and by the time I got back it was smoking like a cheech and chong movie. The truck was phycally beautiful, but the buyer screwed us. (Thats why dealers don't really trust buyers, and you can see it when you walk in, they have to try to sell or wholesale the c**p car you drove in on that you think is worth NADA retail :)
    'Yes sir I know you want me to discount my new with 3 miles Intrepid by $5,000 becuse you think thats the mark up, and I know you want $5,000 for your 7 year old altima with 125,000 miles, faded paint, old tires and spotty service record, but I don't think my sales manager would do that today.' Those of you who have ever sold a car no that happens more often then not. Those of you who buy know it to.

    My mother in laws 1999 Buick Century has only 30,000 miles on it. Everything works as new. It has leather interior and rides pretty well. She looked into trading on a Lacross, she was offered $3,000 for her car :confuse:

    Why? Because thats what KBB said it was worth, and the dealer knew he was stealing a car from an old lady and would turn around and mark it up to $7995 and make some huge money. Fortunately she walked out. Residual value is only good for taxes and accountants who do them. Buy the best value you can get for your money today and leave it at that.
  • Exactly true, the 06 Toyota recall for the Avalon is because an information sticker is listing the wrong information regardin tire inflation. According to the lawyer inspired language of the NTSB this could result in improper inflation of tires which could lead to failure and a potential accident.

    I was not trying to make a severity claim, (the 500 was recalled for mounts on the fuel tank, much more important than a sticker), rather the media almost never reports recalls of Japanese brand automobiles and trucks while it 'seems' that every recall of an american or european car or truck does get some print.

    The most laughable are the avoidance maneuver test conducted by the 'INSURANCE' institute for highway safety. (note this is a testing lab funded by parties who are very interested in what vehicles are purchased, and by whom, you notice the news reports always speak about cost of repair rather than safety, like those 5 mph rear bumber tests on SUV's, yeah they take damage but not injury to passengers. The damage is a negative to the insurance company not the driver, thats why they rate poorly.)

    These avoidance tests, you know the outriggers on suv's, are supposed to illustrate the inherent instability of an SUV. Duh! An SUV his a shorter, narrower wheelbase with a higher center of gravity, suspension designed to soak up potential off road conditions, and 2 thirty foot poles further raising the center of gravity! :P

    Of course they are not handling like cars! They were not designed to be. I owned an 87 full sized Jimmy with 32's and an 8" lift. It did not drive between the cones just right over them with out hitting any :D

    But I never thought I could take a corner fast in it, and in heavy traffic I was always much more alert than most people around me (I did not want to hit some kid in a civic with a 3 ton truck.)

    The media is amored with all vehicles Japanese or German, not to say that the last 15 to 20 years have not given them good reason to do so. If you look at Road and Track (which I like to read), they did a comparison of 30 thousandish convertables, and commented on the Chrysler using outdated SLK suspension systems, which a year earlier in the SLK were a fine example of suspension in a small convertable. What happened in a year? Sure the new SLK uses a more advanced set up but did the old setup get worse or was it the fact that the car said Chrysler on it?
    Whose to say, but when you really take the time to read the words used in a review you can see the bias.

    Example: Import: delivers the same level of refinement we have come to expect from XXXXX

    Domestic: we were suprised by the quality of the plastic materials used, they feel softer and less cheap than before
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    did the same - had an LX Sonata for about a week when out of town. Was really impressed with the new engine, smooth and quiet, good power and a great improvement on the old 'crap' 170hp V6. Interior fit and finish, however, thought was still well behind the Japanese - and where do you think Hyundai came up with that 'wood' - Jupiter? But, overall much improved - guess we'll have to see how well it holds up - the fact remains that the Camry, Accord, and Altima all hold enviable positions in terms of long term reliability and resale values. The Azera - haven't driven one yet - but understand it is a 'soft' car much more like a Buick. And you may be right - the Japanese offerings may not be significantly better - time will tell - but expect Hyundai's established 'cheap car' reputation to continue to hurt the car's value.
  • www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/recall

    check out this web site for recall notices.

    Just looking at 06 / 05 and started 04 before giving up and posting the link I found 588,677 toyota vehicles with safety recalls. These were Camry, Avalon, Corolla, Tundra and Tacoma as well as the Lexus ES330.

    While the recalls are not nearly as rampant as detroit iron, my point with industry bias, and its effect on the public in general, ignores the fact that there are ever any problems with Toyota (I name them only because I looked them up, check out the listing for the 2003 Odyssey minivan and the transmission problems they had which were also felt by the CL, TL, Accord and Pilot.) These manufacturers enjoy favorable press like Saddam did from his information minister. Its just that when you look in the backround you see the M1 tank sitting on the corner. Tercels and Corolla's were inexpensive tranportation using inexpensive materials to save money and hold costs down. Were they cheap? Hyundai Accent and the last year or two of the Excel were inexpensive transportation using inexpensive materials to save money and hold costs down. Were is the difference? A sub 10k car will be a cheap car. Hyundai does not build Excel's anymore, nor do they build scoop's. I had an excel that except for replacing a clutch at 75,000 miles ran trouble fee for years. I had a tercel whose motor blew up at 82,000 miles, does that mean the excel was a better car? Or does that mean that the person who owned the tercel before me did not take good care of it? Whose to say, but the excel ran to almost 150,000 miles before I sold it. Yes it was cheap and plastic and made in 1987 but back then it was a $6,500 car. Once upon a time Toyota made cheap cars that rotted away rapidly, do they still have that reputation? No. Stop living in the past with all things not Toyota or Honda (early cvcc) or Nissan (B210 anyone) and realize that cars made today are within a percentage point or two of their competitors and judge them fairly and honestly on that standpoint.

    Reading these posts reminds me of the death of the Camaro and Firebird. Two cars able to outperform almost anything else on the street, a great value for thier performance, able to be bought as convertables, and except for not being named Civic fantastic cars. Put a stock Si versus a Stock SS and guess which one wins. But hey public perception fueled by the media and entertainment industry said the Civic is the it car. Now to get the same performance out of a Civic you pay 20k for the car and 10k for the engine and another 4 to 8k for the suspension and other modifications and once your done you have a car as fast as a 6 year old camaro or firebird you can find for 8 to 12k. Where o where is the sense?

    The insurance industry kills the pontiac fiero, only to not do the same thing to the mr2. Why?

    Hyundai builds a car that almost all of the automotive press says is equal to the Avalon, and gives the ES a run for its money in feature content and all anybody has to say is, but hyundais past quality is a joke. Are we afraid to admit that just maybe the vaunted Japanese car companies can be matched by someone?
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Had the opportunity to do some business with a multiple dealership owner a few years back - had existing Toyota and Nissan dealerships and now was adding a Ford place in the same 'village'. Dealers make money only because of the service and used car depts. New car sales are acutally net money losers if you properly portion overhead, construction and utility costs, and commissions. This gentlemen was excited to finally get the Ford logo - wonder why?
    So use the KBB/NADA if you wish, but they certainly mean nothing to that dealer taking it in on trade - he is looking to turn it over at profit margins that would make a jewelry saleman blush and probably for more gross dollars profit than he could make selling the car new! Residual value estimates do, however, provide the basis for lease cost, another number that can be manipulated to satisfy those folks that 'buy' by payment size.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,685
    The insurance industry kills the pontiac fiero, only to not do the same thing to the mr2. Why?

    What really killed the Pontiac Fiero was that it was a piece of junk. I knew a few people that had one and not one of them had the original engine in it. One person I knew had just over 60K miles on his car, but he was on his third engine. :sick:

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • I was not aware of that, I had a tennis coach who had one but did not complain of any problems, it was new however. I did know a guy who had a samurai and under the hood is an information sticker that says that the engine is good for only 40,000 miles.
  • alan_salan_s Posts: 356
    History repeats itself.
    In 1968 everyone laughed at my Dad when he bought a Toyota and used derogatory terms describing it as "J#p Cr#p". It was rock solid and ran over 100,000 miles without a problem before he bought another one. After a couple of years nobody was laughing.
    The point is that Hyundai is now where the Japanese were 25 or 30 years ago. They have a sound product and the people who buy the cars now will enjoy the lower-cost hidden secret until the rest of the community wakes up. In the meantime, Japanese quality has slipped and they are riding on reputation. Toyota is watching Hyundai very closely.
    In a few years the Hyundai jokes will be as old as the double-barrel carburetor, and no doubt there will be future emerging competitors on it's tail.
  • I am sold on Hyundai quality and reliability. My friend just hit 100K miles on his 2002 Sonata LX and has had only one minor problem. I was sitting next to a new Lexus LS430 the other day and noticed most of the trim around the windows and body side moldings did not line up and thought this is the opitamy of HIGH quality????? Everything on my Azera and XG lines up perfectly. As for Toyota, my sister has had major trans problems with both her Tundra and 4 Runner.
  • Killing some time last night I wanted to give the Avalon owners a fair shake. The posts on here from those owners convey a high regard for the quality of the car they drive. And admittedly the current recall for the Avalon is for a really insignificant item.

    So I checked out the complaints section: It appears there is an issue with the computer control of the transmission. There are multiple complaints about the same issue on the NTSB site, some pleading with the NTSB to get involved. Dealers are at a loss on how to repair the issue because mechanically the transmissions are fine. They appear to have shift problems, lack of gear change, sudden gear change, hunting for gears, delayed engagement of gears pulling away from a stop. Fortunately no one has been injured, and I am sure that Toyota will do everything they can to repair these cars as quickly as possible.

    On another note. Regarding owner surveys. People like to tout the survey, especially the CR survey's as a true indicator of car quality. But are they really. In my experience I have found that (I'll be politically correct) people who are chronologically challanged, tend to not respond to the suveys they receive. Also, and again this is just in my experience not a blanket claim for all, do not want to be negative about things. My mother in law is not afraid to speak her mind. She had a Buick Le Sabre that was about 3 years old and had only 16,000 miles. The AC went out. Did she complain? No, when I asked her about it, her attitude was: 'well it wasn't their fault, and they said it would be fixed under warranty'. Would she report this on a survey, no. She was happy with the service manager, they treated her well, and she bought another Buick.

    Most of her friends are the same way. I doubt the median age of an Avalon buyer is much different from the median age of a Le Sabre buyer. These individuals are less likely to have a negative comment, unless an incident happened in the very recent past (a week or so). If the problem was fixed, it is no longer an issue.

    Does CR report how many people respond and what their ages are? Do any of the magazines or survey companies? I would be curious to see how the percentages stacked up.

    Even this site has a lot of people complaining about the Avalon shift issue.

    Don't ever forget that perception is reality, people still love Bill Clinton even though he is a filanderer, adulterer and a liar. But hey, he smiled and played the sax, so he must be ok.

    Toyota, Honda, Acura, Lexus, Nissan, and of course Mitsubishi have mechanical issues, fit and finish issues and recalls, just like everyone else. But hey, thier from Japan so it must be ok.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    is the new 6A. Unfortunately, I feel that current purchasees will be out of luck. That said, I didn't notice a downshift issue in the Avalon to be more present than in our 05 Legacy, also with electronic throttle control, which I believe causes the problem in Toyota's 5A.

    Regarding the 6A that tha Avalon should be receiving for the 07 MY... Toyota's press release (of the New Camry) states:

    "Harnessing this engine's output is an all-new six-speed automatic transmission that uses 21 percent fewer parts than the conventional five-speed automatic transmission it replaces. This new transmission, which can be shifted sequentially, relies upon a newly developed gear train that uses a Ravigneaux-type compound planetary gear for reduced size, weight and friction.

    This new transmission also uses a quick-response, low-friction clutch pack for enhanced fuel economy; an ultra-flat, low-inertia torque converter for high transmission efficiency; a set of high-response, low-slip clutch packs and new electronic and hydraulic control systems that incorporate an intelligent shift control that learns driver's driving style and selects gears based on that style.

    As a result of this development, transmission kickdown response was cut to 0.5 seconds, more than twice as fast as the response of the transmission this new one replaces."

    So, apparently the 6A will offer kickdowns twice as fast as the (in my opinion) dumpy, but not unsafe, 5A.

    ~alpha
  • I was sitting next to a new Lexus LS430 the other day and noticed most of the trim around the windows and body side moldings did not line up and thought this is the opitamy of HIGH quality?????

    Did you know the amount of crash damage the Lexus had sustained?

    Either that, or you are overdue for a visit to your opthalmologist.

    It's one thing to compare an Azera to an Avalon, and quite another to an LS 430.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Don't think that too many people would argue that as we age we tend to become less tolerant - not more as you suggest. Furthermore, the older you are the more financially able you will generally be - making that person perhaps even a little more 'disagreeable' - money does have a way of making a person used to getting his/her own way. Think you supposition is all wrong, except that it logical that the older we get the less likely we might be to fill out silly surveys - except possibly for those that are actually retired and may have little else to do.
    An industry bias for Japanese cars! Don't you think that CR or any other automotive publication/surveyor in this country would just love to be able to say 'go out and buy the 500 - it is a wonderful car backed by Ford and its history of building superior cars is second to none..." Of course, they would - just that they can't! Say that about Toyota and Honda certainly, Nissan is close, and indeed Hyundai may be paying a high price for past problems - we just won't know if this will change for awhile.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,685
    Don't you think that CR or any other automotive publication/surveyor in this country would just love to be able to say 'go out and buy the 500 - it is a wonderful car backed by Ford and its history of building superior cars is second to none..." Of course, they would - just that they can't!

    They can't or they won't? I take any car magazines reviews with a grain of salt and I don't trust CR to tell me the time. Right, wrong or indifferent there is a certain bias out there that will not go away any time soon.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • Wow, the person who just bought the Lexus must have just been suckered into buying a brand new wrecked vehicle. It still had the paper tags on. The only thing I was comparing is fit and finish. For 60k+ I personally would expect the entire vehicle to be flawless.
  • I have an o6 avalon 0 to 60 in 6.3sec 99mph quarter mile.I drove a 500 before buying the avalon no power and no room for my right leg flat against the console and wood grain on the dash looks like a prison tray. Have owned 5 fords and their quality has gone from good to none. Thats why their in finacial trouble. Only way the 500 will out run the avalon is if it is pushing it.
  • Don't you think that CR or any other automotive publication/surveyor in this country would just love to be able to say 'go out and buy the 500 - it is a wonderful car backed by Ford and its history of building superior cars is second to none

    Nope. In fact, I think they intentionally go out of their way to trash good American vehicles.
This discussion has been closed.