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Biodiesel/WVO in HD diesel pickups

workerbee47workerbee47 Posts: 1
edited April 10 in Chevrolet
Does anyone have any info. on this? I have bought a product from a company called Diesel Secret Energy (DSE) there web site is www.dieselsecret.com, they show you how to make fuel for your diesel out of waste vegtable oil (WVO). It sounds great, and I know that people are running diesels on WVO but most seem to be using another fuel tank and heating the oil, with this system you do not have to do that. I am just going to make my first batch of fuel but would like to talk to other people that have used this system? I live in central MN. and the weather here is getting quite cold, and I do not want to have any problems with my truck at this time of year?? Would like any info. you might have about this system? Thanks
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Comments

  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    I have retitled the discussion so that all diesel owners can check in.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • Sorry, can't give you an answer but I too have been researching DSE and their product. I have a F250 I want to put it in and I have all the same concerns. I can tell you that I've been looking on the web for complaints about DSE and have not found any yet. I'm trying to avoid buying all the tanks required in making bio-diesel. If I find out more info, I'll let you know. If you use it and have good results, please let me know. V/r
  • gary045gary045 Posts: 81
    Keep up the good work, workerbee.

    DaimlerChrysler Expands Use of Biodiesel Fuel in Dodge Ram Pickup Trucks
    Friday January 20, 3:52 pm ET
    * B20 Biodiesel Approved for Government, Military and Commercial Fleets
    * Next Step Toward Making Clean, Renewable Biofuels An Option for All Diesel Owners
    * Extending the Environmental Benefits of Modern Clean Diesel Technology

    AUBURN HILLS, Mich., Jan. 20 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- DaimlerChrysler will expand the use of clean, renewable biodiesel fuel by approving use of B20 (20 percent biodiesel) in Dodge Ram pickup trucks.
    Use of B20 is approved effective with the 2007 Model Year and will require use of biodiesel fuel that meets the fuel specifications established by the U.S. military.

    Initially, DaimlerChrysler is approving use of B20 in Dodge Ram pickups equipped with Cummins diesel engines for its military, government and commercial fleet customers only. The company is working with the government, automotive suppliers, energy providers, universities and independent agencies on a national fuel standard that would make B20 an option for all owners of Dodge Ram diesels.

    "Biofuels represent a huge opportunity to reduce fuel consumption and our dependence on foreign oil," said Chrysler Group President and CEO Tom LaSorda in remarks prepared for the Economic Club of Detroit Jan. 23 meeting.

    In addition, biofuels reduce overall emissions of greenhouse gases and tailpipe emissions of particulates and smog-forming compounds. And use of biofuels supports the American agricultural economy.

    Promoting increased use of biodiesel is a part of DaimlerChrysler's campaign to re-introduce diesel-powered passenger vehicles to U.S. consumers. Modern, clean diesel vehicles offer fuel economy improvements of 30 percent and reduced greenhouse gas emissions, compared with gas-powered vehicles. At the same time, diesel vehicles provide the power and performance valued by American consumers.

    "While diesel technology alone can make big strides toward helping us meet our national energy, environment and security objectives, when you add biodiesel and other biofuels, it gets really interesting," LaSorda said.

    DaimlerChrysler has also announced plans to market vehicles this year equipped with BlueTec, a portfolio of emission technologies that will enable diesel vehicles to meet the toughest environmental standards.

    "The Mercedes E320 full-size sedan, powered by a six-cylinder BLUETEC diesel engine, will be the cleanest diesel in the world," LaSorda said.

    Chrysler Group has previously endorsed use of B5 (5 percent biodiesel) fuel in the Jeep® Liberty CRD diesel SUV, and every vehicle is fueled with B5 at the assembly plant in Toledo. In addition, use of B2 is approved for the diesel-powered Dodge Sprinter vans.

    Most U.S. biodiesel is made from soy beans. However, DaimlerChrysler is participating in research programs in Germany and India to develop processes for producing high-quality biodiesel from non-food agricultural products.

    In the United States, Chrysler Group is participating in an extensive biodiesel research program, including development of a national B20 specification. The research partnership includes Detroit-based nonprofit NextEnergy, Biodiesel Industries, the nation's largest chain of biodiesel refineries, automotive suppliers Bosch, Delphi and Cummins, along with researchers based at Wayne State and Michigan State universities, with initial work to include much-needed research and field testing of biodiesel fuels.

    Chrysler Group is also working with Michigan State researchers and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency to re-use a brownfield site in the Detroit area to produce crops for biodiesel research and development programs.

    Chrysler Group is further supporting use of renewable biofuels with approximately 1.5 million Flex Fuel vehicles now in use that are capable of running on E85 (85 percent ethanol) fuel made with corn. For the 2006 model year, Flex Fuel versions of the Dodge Ram 1500, Dodge Stratus and Chrysler Sebring sedans, Dodge Durango and Dodge and Chrysler minivans are available to fleet customers.

    "Biofuels are proof that at least part of the solution to our energy, environment and national security issues can be homegrown," LaSorda said.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Source: DaimlerChrysler
  • taointntaointn Posts: 2
    I can't offer advice of my own, although I'm getting ready to purchase a diesel and have been researching. I've seen the DSE website. But there are others out there that basically say to avoid the DSE approach...I don't know who to believe.
  • greaser2greaser2 Posts: 1
    The problem with running straight vegtable oil (SVO)is that it is too thick and room temp. The only proven way is to heat SVO to thin it out for you injectors or convert it into BioDiesel using methanol and Lye. BioDiesel still runns into trouble with cold temps, this problem is solved by using a diesel/biodiesel blend. Anything else is just snake oil that you need to put in the same place as the 400 MPG carb and fuel line magnets
  • tdinicktdinick Posts: 4
    There's no secret. You can buy commercially made biodiesel [here in Seattle it's cheaper than petro #2] or make your own appleseed biodiesel processor using a electric hot-water heater some tanks, plumbing and a pump. DSE is a rip off! SVO/SWO is not good for your vehicle.
  • kd7caokd7cao Posts: 3
    I have been researching the idea of using Bio-Diesel for the past four years now and am finally going to be getting a new GMC Sierra 3500 or TopKick 4500 truck with the Dura-Max 6.6L Diesel.

    Everything I have read about running Bio-Diesel or WVO or even Neat Diesel you should run a two tank system. I am looking at one of those work truck tanks that you usually see with a fuel pump for filling agricultural or construction equipment with. I plan on plumbing it into my main fuel line with a "Y" Valve so that I can start and stop on #2 Diesel and drive or work on Bio-Diesel. The benefits to this approach are: no congealing of fuel in the lines or injectors due to colder temperatures, ability to run regular diesel without contaminating the Bio-Diesel tank, ability to run a blend easily. Plus, if the truck needs servicing I can prove that I have tried running on regular diesel and it makes no difference.

    Bio-Fuels are the way to go in my opinion. But, it needs to be preheated to lower the viscosity of the fuel. Currently I am in Texas so it isn't a huge problem during the summer but in the winter it could be. My home state however is the South Western portion of Washington State. This area could cause problems with Bio-Diesel if it congeals. Being in Emergency Response that is something I can not afford. It could be someones life on the line.

    Just to sum it all up. I would absolutely reccomend running a TWO TANK SYSTEM!
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    In cold weather I think a tank of pure biodiesel would congeal. With a Y-valve I can see problems adjusting the blend. The simplest and most trouble free approach is to use one tank and use a biodiesel/petroleum diesel blend in the range approved for your vehicle's engine.

    You only need a separate tank if you are using waste vegetable oil or other biofat which has not been transesterified to methyl esters (std biodiesel). WVO is sure to be troublesome and I would think absolutely out of the question if you have emergency responsibilities.
  • kd7caokd7cao Posts: 3
    What I plan to do is use the Y valve to allow the Bio Diesel to flow into the engine during normal operating parameters. The engine would actually start and stop on regular diesel. The regular diesel would be used to allow the engine to reach a working temperature during normal operations. I also plan on running a heat exchange into the Biodiesel tank so that it will heat the fuel, this way even if the bio fuel was congealed it could be made into a liquid during cold weather.
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    If you want to run SVO (straight vegetable oil) then you need a second tank kit Link to NYT story, but biodiesel mixes with petroleum diesel and there's no need for a second tank.
  • Seems everyone is interested it the same thing saving money and finding out how. I have been interested in alternative fuels for some time now and wanted to share this web site with yall!! I thing it is awesome and have bought many of the books & CD's on hydrogen check it out!! @ KNOWLEDGEPUBLICATIONS.COM THEY HAVE TOPICS ON EVERYTHING!!! ALSO click on the link that says don't click here neat video on a hydrogen car..
  • AS A HEAVY TRUCK DRIVER AND SOMEONE WHO HAS USED ALL THE ALTERNATE FUELS, I TEND TO KNOW A BIT ABOUT FUELS. I HAVE DRIVEN ABOUT 2.5 MILLION KM'S ON DIESEL OR ALTERNATE FUELS IN COMMERCIAL VEHICLES. NEVER, EVER, EVER USE A FUEL HEATER IN THE TANK FOR DIESEL OR BIODIESEL. DIESEL FUEL IS THE EASIEST TO CONTAMINATE AND WATER WILL DO THAT TO THE FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM ON ANY DIESEL. WHEN YOU HEAT THE FUEL, YOU ARE THEN ALLOWING THE WATER TO CONDENSE ON THE INSIDE OF YOUR TANK WHEN IT COOLS DOWN. IF YOU DO THIS ENOUGH TIMES, YOU WILL HAVE SO MUCH WATER IN YOUR TANK, EVEN JESUS HIMSELF COULD NOT START IT. WATER IN DIESEL CORRODES THE WHOLE FUEL SYSTEM. IT ALSO FREEZES AND THEN PLUGS YOUR FUEL FILTER. IF YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND THE BASICS OF A DIESEL FUEL SYSTEMS, FORGET DIESEL AND USE PROPANE. IT'S HALF THE PRICE IS SOME AREAS OF CANADA AND ABOUT 2/3 THE PRICE IN THE USA.
    IF YOU MUST USE DIESEL, USE AN INLINE FUEL HEATER ONLY. THIS IS WHAT THE BIG RIGS USE. ALMOST ALL THE HEATED FUEL WILL THEN BE USED AS IT RUNS. THIS WAY THE TANK STAYS AT OUTSIDE AMBIENT TEMPERATURES. IF YOU THINK THIS IS A MINOR PROBLEM, JUST WRITE ME A CHECK FOR 3 OR 4 THOUSAND DOLLARS AND I CAN DRIVE YOU TO THE BRAIN DOCTOR WHILE HE DOES A LABOTAMY. THE MONEY IS NOT FOR ME....IT'S FOR THE MECHANIC TO REPLACE PARTS OF YOUR FUEL INJECTION SYSTEM. AFTER THAT...NO ONE WILL LET YOU DRIVE ANYTHING.....LOL.
  • QUESTION: WHAT READILY AVAILABLE FUEL CONTAINS A VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF AN AGENT THAT HELPS OTHER FUELS BURN BETTER? BIG HINT: THE AGENT IS HYDROGEN. I'LL GIVE A CHANCE FOR A FEW RESPONSES BEFORE I ANSWER.
  • folbfolb Posts: 54
    BEWARE, I too have used it. Below 40 degrees it starts to gel. Also make sure you get rid of all the water. They have a flaw in their system. They tell you to nmix everything together and filter it thru the water separator. On the box it tells you WILL NOT REMOVE WATER WITH ALCOHOL IN THE SYSTEM. Doesn't the additive have alcohol in it? Just use it in the 3 warmer months but GET THE WATER OUT. Get settling tanks too.
  • gabby10gabby10 Posts: 32
    i run bio diesel in my ford excursion been running it since may of 06 since that time i have only done 3 fill up with just straight diesel , the performance in my truck i feel has improved , i noticed that no more soot on my paint at exhaust side , my milegae on trip increased if i can just set the cruise i can get up around 22-24 mpg on highway , my trip computer will pop up to 850 miles for the tank , when i drove out to las vegas in june i had to get 2 tanks of straight stuff my trip ran down to 700-725 now i realize that altitude and that slow but steady grade out there in New Mexico and arizona factors in there but really i think you should not worry about using a B2-B20 blend in maryland i am only able to get B2 and B5 , :)
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Mark, due to almost all (or all) large trucks having some fuel bypassed back to the tank(s) the fuel tank(s) do NOT remain at outside air ambient temp, but gradually warm up. An in-line fuel heater will increase the tank warm-up; many fuel heaters of any kind shut off at a desired fuel temp. Water formation is more of a factor of the amount percentage of water vapor (humidity) in the air above the fuel, lower fuel (more air), and the colder a tank gets while sitting. The max temp a tank reaches during operation has little effect; in fact high tank temps can dry the air in a tank.
    ... It is the cooling and shrinking of the air, that draws in air ( that might be very humid ), that then condenses on the walls of the tank. Again, low fuel, more wall, more air. In very warm air temps the tank, regardless of fill level, condenses very little water. You must have run into: high humidity, low tank level and shutdown temps (sitting) between 20 to 60 F. Below 20 the air drys out, above 60 the tank starts to condense less water vapor.
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    Mark,

    Are you going to post your answer to the question you posed about the agent which contains a high percentage of hydrogen and helps other fuels burn better?

    I cannot think of a good candidate, but I will hazzard guesses.

    1. Methane through propane (LPG). The hydrocarbon which has the highest percentage of hydrogen is methane (CH4), the main component of natural gas, next is ethane (C2H6) also found in natural gas, next is propane (C3H8), next is butane (C4H10), all found in natural gas and in crude oil.

    But it is not clear to me that these volatile hydrocarbons help other fuels burn better in an engine. These volatile hydrocarbons would dissolve in diesel fuel, but I can't imagine that it would be safe to dissolve them in diesel fuel because it could make an explosive mixture, and pressurize the tank if the temperature rose.

    I have read that to prevent gelling of diesel fuel in cold weather that some people would mix in a certain amount of gasoline (roughly C6-C9 mixture of straight alkane and aromatic hydrocarbons), but that this practice was not considered safe because the vapor pressure of the hydrocarbons in the tank would be in the ignitable range. I assume that the same would apply to the lower molecular weight hydrocarbons.

    2. Ethanol (C2H6O). I have read that there are some stabilized mixtures of ethanol and diesel fuel being used.

    What is your answer?
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Jim, go to hy-drive.com. And, please tell me what you think of it. Long story short, they say a small amount of hydrogen gas does miracles for Diesel combustion.
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    This is the first I've heard of this. Is the hydrogen gas (H2) injected into the intake air or injected along with the fuel? How much hydrogen is used?

    I'm not capable of professionally evaluating it, but I am skeptical that any advantage would be worth the expense of the apparatus for storing or generating the H2 and then injecting the correct amount.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Jim, can you not go to the website ??? I want some input about this. It is a small amount (gaseous) in the intake.
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    I went to the website, but I guess I didn't follow all the links available. I sent the link to a friend of mine and he found the quote below which is to me a bright red flag. If they are soliciting investors, I would not be interested. Of course, I am skeptical and risk adverse.

    "From their News section, Aug 7:

    While management believes design flaws have now been corrected, the Company will not attain its projection of achieving positive cash-flow status before the close of the 2007 reporting calendar year due to the corrective action of rectification and replacement of impacted parts. Additionally, this defect will require the Company to re-assess the value placed on existing inventories of completed and work-in-process units, together with associated component parts."
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    In an 8 minute video by Hy-Drive it is stated that the H2 gas is generated from the electrolysis of water, but as I remember only a liter or so of water is used per 3000 miles. If I have this correct then this is a very, very small amount of hydrogen gas which is being combined with the fuel in the combustion.

    If this is a large diesel truck, assume it gets 10 mpg, so to go 3000 mi it will use 300 gal of diesel fuel which is 1136 L or approx 965 kg of diesel fuel, since the density of diesel fuel is about 0.85 kg/L.

    A liter of water is 1 kg, of which 0.111 kg is hydrogen. So the added hydrogen gas is about 0.012 % by weight of the amount of diesel fuel. (0.111kg/965kg x 100% = 0.012 %)

    This is so little hydrogen compared to the diesel fuel that it would take some considerable amount of independently confirmed science and engineering results and analysis to overcome my skepticism that this amount of hydrogen could have any significant effect on the combustion process.
  • fenris2fenris2 Posts: 31
    First everything I have read about DSE says either stay away, or its not even necessary. For a detailed disucssion with lists of other discussions...
    http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/419605551/m/1311010701/p/1

    As to biodiesel in HD trucks many people do it. Many people run SVO too without DSE. If it were my truck, and my money for fixing it, I would consider well processed BD. But that is just me talking.

    In general the issues are:

    1) Polymerisation of oil from BD mixing with crank case oil, and under heat eventually turning into plastic (polymeization). I have heard this is mitigated by using vegetable base oil which helps and/or prevents this process from happening

    2) Injector pressure and nozzle issues due to density of BD. Not to much you can do here. Biodiesel is more viscuous than diesel, SVO doubly so. If your injection system runs at very high PSI its more of a risk afaik, but many people do so. A lot depends on just how well the BD is made. you do not want things like excess methanol, water or what have you in the BD. Some run inline fuel heaters to help reduce this problem

    3) Cloud/Pour point. While additives exist to help lower this for BD, the bottom line is that in cold weather you need to mix regular D2, Kero or whatever to lower it. FYI mixing BD should be done at 70F or up. Otherwise it can seperate over time. Splash mixing other ways/temps, and using it very quickly, is anecdotally okay.

    4) On newer wacky polution control engines. BD (and certainly SVO) _may be_ problematic. Early discussion focuses on water and some element in the BD. It is said that it interfears with the periodic burning process that the emissions systems use. For exmaple, afiak new VW common rails have NO BD allowed in Europe, where BD is very widely used...

    The scary part about #4 is that if someone blends biodiesel with diesel, they can legally do so without labeling the result as biodiesel if its below some percentage (afaik 12% or 19%) in some sates - as its considered just an additive at those blend rates. Along with some states requiring certain minimum bioD in their diesel. NO idea how that will all resolve warranty wise...

    Another thing to consider is running a seperate scaraficial inline fuel filter to help catch crud and/or semi cloudy BD at starup. probably a wise choice given the cheap cost of such filters.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... I am very much for this, whenever possible. The initial setup is less complicated and less expensive than all that lye and methanol deal; however with certain base stocks and or weather parameters the latter may be necessary. I would have one tank my standard, old reliable, fuel oil # 2 (or something as reliable); my heated tank would be part of a four valve shut off / on system. Just four valves that I could quickly ( almost simultaneously ) shut off both my outlet and bypass to my regular tank and turn on my heated tank outlet and bypass then sometime just before engine shutdown, visa-versa. One way to keep moisture out would be a manual vent valve that would only be open during that tank's actual use. Yes, as cooled a tank with this type vent would go into low pressure (vacuum).
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    Correction to my calculations above. The Hy-Drive video states that the water consumption is about 2L per 80 hrs operating time which they say is about 0.5 gal per 3000 miles. This is 2 L per 3000 mi.

    2 L of water is 2 kg of water which contains 0.22 kg of hydrogen. This will be 0.023% of the weight of the diesel fuel consumed, assuming a fuel use of 10 mpg. Travelling 3000 mi at 10 mpg the truck consumes 300 gal or 1136L of fuel of density 0.85kg/L so 965kg of diesel.

    0.22 kg / 965 kg x 100 % = 0.023% or 230 parts per million H2 out of the total fuel charge.

    My conclusion is still that I am skeptical that such a small amount of hydrogen gas in the combustion mix would increase the efficiency of combustion of the diesel fuel. Testimonials that would claim significant fuel efficiency increases with this system cannot be uncritically accepted because any fuel economy increase could be the result of the truck being driven more carefully.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Jim, what do you make of the comment that the O2 is benign ?
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    The presence of O2 would be benign, and in fact would be negligible. The inlet air stream is 20% O2 so the small amount of O2 from electrolysis of water would be utterly negligible.

    The O2 and the H2 are generated at the two separate electrodes in the electrolysis unit, and are then evidently combined, according to the diagram in the video, and fed into the inlet combustion air stream at some point, whether before or after the turbocharger is not clear to me.

    What is the cost of one of these units, including installation?
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Jim, the only thing I saw on the site was a way to contact a salesman. Yes, you are right. Just about no difference in 02, so it's strictly the hydrogen.
  • jim314jim314 Posts: 491
    This suggests that to be effective the hydrogen should be present at 21% to 50% of the amount of hydrocarbon fuel.

    So the 0.023% H2 that the Hy-Drive system delivers is over 900 times too small to produce an effect.
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    due to almost all (or all) large trucks having some fuel bypassed back to the tank(s) the fuel tank(s) do NOT remain at outside air ambient temp, but gradually warm up.
    That would be correct.

    hmmm, he may drive the trucks, but as someone who works on them, the newer Cummins engines run the fuel through a a plate on the side of the engine (mostly to cool the ECM), but it also heats the fuel even more. The heated fuel is then returned to the tank (diesels don't use all the fuel that is pumped to the injectors).

    So on some days where it is really cold, you can see steam coming off the fuel tanks. I've seen fuel tanks that would get around 90 degrees in 20 degree weather.
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