Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





Toyota on the mend?

12467531

Comments

  • anythngbutgmanythngbutgm Posts: 4,175
    Well, visiting other forums outside of Edmunds you'd think GM was on its way back to 60% market share and Toyota is about to go out of business. This recent spat of recalls is certainly giving fuel to that fire... :mad:
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    if Toyota INTENTIONALLY slows down its own sales growth now to be sure of its quality control. For instance, it has been widely speculated that Toyota will pass GM in global sales in the next couple of years, but if Toyota slows down, GM may continue its reign for a while longer...

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • andy82471andy82471 Posts: 120
    That is unlikely. Unless Toyota slows down drastically and GM increases its output significantly. Most analyst agrees either sometime next year or 2008 is when Toyota topples GM.
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    So despite what the naysayers are saying about TOYOTA's supposed slip in quality, the reality is that it is still better than the rest in terms of quality

    Actually, J.D. Power has Toyota ranked 5th for dependability and 4th for initial quality. This is still better than most brands.

    All these recalls will affect Toyota's image. We have seen similar situations in the past with GM, K Mart, IBM and others. When a corporation has any sort of trouble the media has a way of making every problem a news event.
  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    ...you want to slice it, Toyota slowing down its product development cycle to conquer quality gremlins is not good. Toyota has been touted as a model of efficiency because of the advanced tech they use to speed up their cycle to 2 years or so as opposed to everyone else's 3-4 years. Apparently, it's not quite up to snuff - the simulators are missing things.

    Toyota's still on top, no doubt. But they are taking a step backwards while everyone else is going forward.
  • logic1logic1 Posts: 2,433
    I don't see as being bad or good.

    It is just a fact of the business in automobile manufacturing. Making autos is complex. Engineering is complex. There are multiple suppliers.

    Like many companies in the midst of a very successful growth, Toyota began to believe its own press that it could do no wrong. Toyota began to deviate from the process that brought it so successfully to where it was.

    Taking back what I said above, I see the development as positive. The market is in a place where it has to decide whether it wants an entirely unique car for every possible segment with the resulting quality risks, or does it want variations of platforms that allow greater quality control.

    I do not think the auto world is at a point where it where you can have both. As the market really seems to prefer the latter - at least the mass market - Ferrari buyers will accept technical limitations for the chance to have the perfect driving thrill - then we have to begin to accept that car companies cannot throw out a different model whenever our whim seeks it.
  • mariner7mariner7 Posts: 509
    Old Japanese saying:

    "A journey of 1000 miles down the slippery slope starts with a first fall."

    And do we ever have a first fall!!!

    Don't give me that Toyota's being proactive stuff! How do you hide recalling more than 2m in America and 1M in Japan? They can't, so they do the only thing and acknowledge and apologize!

    There's evidence that Toyota tried its best to hide it. NYT reported 2 Toy executives were being investigated for criminal misconduct in this affair by the Japanese government. The accusation was they knew about this for the last EIGHT years!
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    "There's evidence that Toyota tried its best to hide it. NYT reported 2 Toy executives were being investigated for criminal misconduct in this affair by the Japanese government. The accusation was they knew about this for the last EIGHT years!"

    Let's correct this paragraph: two Toyota officials are being investigated for NON-CRIMINAL charges in Japan, related to one incident involving the crash of a Toyota Hilux Surf, where there was a suspicion that steering components were to blame (hence the recall on old 4Runners and even older pick-ups last year). The investigation is occurring because there was evidence that the steering had a known fault, and these two good people (ahem! :-<) ignored this evidence, and went with the design as it already was.

    I owned one of the affected trucks out to 220K miles - no problems there. Toyota recalled my truck anyway, and put brand new tie rods on a 16-year-old 200K truck - certainly above and beyond the NHTSA's requirements.

    I would certainly encourage Toyota to slow down its production and expansion at this juncture, and get things back under control. If treading water to fix QC glitches means a year or two of just-average profits and "only" a 14% market share in the U.S., then so be it.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • hypnosis44hypnosis44 Posts: 483
    Toyota's denial of problems extended all the way down to the dealer level. I took delivery of a 2005 Sienna XLE AWD that had so many problems I thought I was driving a Yugo. The dealer refused to admit even the most obvious of them. I finally made them eat the vehicle, no cost too me, or face an embarrassing law suit. If they had acknowledged the problems and at least worked with me on them I would have kept the car! (I was a mechanic for 15 years which gave me a small edge on the smoke they were blowing.)

    I may look at the 2007 Sienna, being a slow learner and all.
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    I would certainly encourage Toyota to slow down...and get things back under control.

    That's the right approach, Nippon. The media believes they have a 'big story' on their hands with Toyota's quality troubles.

    In our 24 hour media culture repetition shapes opinion. That's unfair, but it's a reality big business has to contend with.

    Toyota can't let this "Toyota quality is slipping" narrative gain media traction. It won't get better on its own.
  • lahirilahiri Posts: 394
    In some forums related to GM/ Ford, I hear people (including me) screaming that quality is hurting volume. Here we are talking whether volume is hurting quality... I need a few days to gather my thoughts and to start reasoning things backwards :blush: What does this mean for consumers like me anyway... Avoid big manufacturers :confuse: Or, avoid those who recall :confuse:
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    So despite what the naysayers are saying about TOYOTA's supposed slip in quality, the reality is that it is still better than the rest in terms of quality.

    That is not what this is saying; "recalls have yet to affect significantly Toyota's standings in quality surveys" indicates that there is a lag in time between the occurrence of a quality problem and the recognition of same and then the perception that Toyota vehicles are associated with quality flaws. In other words, it takes time for the truth to get out. Mercedes-Benz is a further example of this. Even though their cars are and have been filled with flaws for years they got by on reputation established in years prior before the buying public realized that buying a Benz was tantamount to gambling insofar as quality was concerned. It will be no different for Toyota as the public becomes increasingly aware that the Toyota of 2006 is not the Toyota of 1996.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    "What does this mean for consumers like me anyway... Avoid big manufacturers Or, avoid those who recall"

    Can't do that unfortunately. They all recall.

    Honda just recalled 1.2 million vehicles because they put an 800 area code on their (888) customer care line in their manual under customer arbitration. :-P

    Apparently, the (800) number they put is a sex line, to make matters worse. :sick:

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    That is not what this is saying; "recalls have yet to affect significantly Toyota's standings in quality surveys" indicates that there is a lag in time between the occurrence of a quality problem and the recognition of same and then the perception that Toyota vehicles are associated with quality flaws

    The surveys are sent by people actually own the car unlike you who passes his own personal opinions as facts.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    The surveys are sent by people actually own the car unlike you who passes his own personal opinions as facts.

    I would say that when multiple credible publications such as the WSJ and BBC Online are rife with reports for anyone to read about Toyota quality implosion this is much more than an opinion.

    Please do try to stop twisting people's comments to fit your own bias.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    Wall Street Journal and BBC are not in the business of doing ownership surveys unlike JDP and CR. You should know that by now. The fact remains that TOYOTA as a brand is still much better than the domestics, and yes that THAT IS A FACT NOT AN OPINION.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It will be no different for Toyota as the public becomes increasingly aware that the Toyota of 2006 is not the Toyota of 1996.

    Actually you are right ... sort of...but the environment has changed and the vehicles certainly have changed. As a result the entire perception of what is acceptable has changed and the companies are changing with the times.

    Consider...
    The Gen3 and Gen4 Camrys were not much different from any vehicle made since the 50's. All were mainly mechanical vehicles with a minimum of safety features ( seatbelts and front A/B ). The workings of the vehicles were mainly mechanical linkages which had been used and perfected for the better part of 50 years. Where Toyota and Honda shone in comparison to the other makers in the late 90's was that the assembly and the very basic mechanical linkages were simplified and made repetitive and nearly perfect.

    Since 1998 all of this has changed. In 1998 Toyota eliminated the distributor and went to its TDI system. Since then it has added ECT-i, ETC-i, VVTi, Trac, VSC, VDIM, RSCA, Dynamic Laser Cruise, Navi, hybrid technology, PSD ( eliminating the traditional tranny ), BT and electic steering.

    Under the skin today's vehicles are literally and figuratively in a different millenium. I would consider the Gen2 Camry/Avalon/Accord to be the peak of the mechanical auto. Now what is on the road, whether from Toyota, MB, Acura, et. al. is an electronic office or studio in the skin of an auto.

    Then there was the Ford/Firestone situation. The legal departments of all major companies whether auto or not learned what not to do during that fiasco. If there is a safety risk of any kind get on it right away and don't let it blossom to a full fledged disaster. This is just good business - by everyone. The way that Johnson and Johnson handled the Tylenol problem is the model. Get out in front admit the mistakes and fix them. All will be forgiven in time. Tylenol is stronger than ever as is J&J.

    With the exponientially more complex vehicles than even 8 years ago and the fact that these hugely different vehicles are just coming to market as the cutting edge of the technology of the 21st Century IMO makes it likely that for a while there will be 'learning curve' by both the manufacturers and the users of these new electronic devices we call autos.

    No auto maker will be able to stay back in the last century with a basically mechanical device, all will have to accept that the current buyer want's these high-tech vehicles. Now who do you want supplying them?
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    JDP and CR

    Maybe you better re-read the post about there being a lag between the development of problems and the public's realization of same.

    The fact remains that TOYOTA as a brand is still much better than the domestics, and yes that THAT IS A FACT NOT AN OPINION.

    Sorry, bub, your unsubstantiated zeal for foreign cars notwithstanding, that is very much your opinion.

    It is very clear to any unbiased observer that the American car brands are on the ascending part of the curve with the worst being behind them, as exemplifed by the new Lincoln MKZ and several of the excellent current offerings from GM such as the Impala SS and the Buick Lucerne (check the Avalon board for reports of former Avalon owners who got burned on Toyota's junk and who sought refuge in the new Lucerne with great satisfaction), while Toyota and several other foreign car makers (VW, M-B for example) are on the descending part of the curve, and your unfounded enthusiasm will not change the situation.
  • motownusamotownusa Posts: 836
    American cars are on the ascending part of the curve ? A little too early for the April Fool's joke don't you think ? Last time I read the news, domestic sales were down in the toilet and Honda and Toyota were up in double digits. I am sure TOYOTA won't mind being on the descending part of the curve in your alternate universe.
  • JPD and CR report historical data. Toyota's problems are recent, stemming from relentless cost cutting in the name of added profit. Their over confidence and arrogance is now catching up to them. Running their development programs short handed, resulting in cutting corners with testing in the name of rushing product to market, and now a workforce that is burning out, are just now starting to show up in issues with their vehicles, and will for quite some time. In short, their system is rotting thru to the core. This won't convince you that historically the data shows high marks for Toyota, but it's enough for me to not lay out premium dollars for what is now historical perception of quality.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Toyota's problems are recent, stemming from relentless cost cutting in the name of added profit. Their over confidence and arrogance is now catching up to them.

    Precisely correct.

    But the question is, why would anyone in his or her right mind want to subsidize this greed by paying through the nose for quality that no longer exists?

    In this day and age of the internet there is really no excuse for such ignorance which will prove exceedingly costly for whose who do not thoroughly do their due diligence.
  • scott1256scott1256 Posts: 531
    to say that Toyota is more dependable than some domestic brands, not domestic bramds as a whole.

    Recent J. D. Power dependability reports say Buick, Cadillac and Mercury are more reliable over time than Toyota.

    Here is a link to the latest J.D. Power news release: scroll down for complete brand list in order of reliability.

    http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/060809/law079.html?.v=66
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    But the question is, why would anyone in his or her right mind want to subsidize this greed by paying through the nose for quality that no longer exists?

    The reason is that while you may think that there is a significant fall off in QDR to the vast majority of current Toyota owners there is none. Those like myself who have been burned by the detroiters in the past will never forgive the lost time and lost dollars caused by 80's and 90's junk.

    There is still a cost of $10000+ spent in the past on four different detroiter vehicles that cannot be recouped. Compare that to a total of $400 on 7 Toyotas since 1989.

    As noted elsewhere, recalls? Who cares!! Mine took less than 30 min to fix and cost me nothing at any time since it was done during a regularly scheduled oil change.

    There is a much closer differential now and the detroiters, if they don't misjudge the market again, may gain ground on
    with better vehicles but they still will have lost an entire generation - or two - with poor quality in the last 25 yrs. Toyota/Honda and recently Hyundai have built up a huge bankroll of Goodwill.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It is very clear to any unbiased observer that the American car brands are on the ascending part of the curve with the worst being behind them,

    Huh?

    Ford cant close capacity fast enough to keep up with buyers dropping off their customer list. I work 10 min from the Norfolk F150 plant. The Fusion/Milan ranks last in the IIHS crash test results for midsized vehicles. Dumb, since the 500 ranks first in its category.

    DC was third, now is fifth and really has no auto presence at all. If it wasn't for Jeep, the Caravans and trucks ...

    GM has good offerings in a lot of products and with it's new settlement with Delphi will very likely survive and kick butt in the next union negotiations.

    Except GM are these the 'winners' on the upswing. barely afloat is more accurate.
  • "The Fusion/Milan ranks last in the IIHS crash test results for midsized vehicles. "
    Relative to what? It hasn't been tested with side air bags yet, which become standard in 2007 for Fusion.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    how the results would look if we made a chart of all the recalls of the Big 6 manufacturers in the last ten years. Would Toyota compare poorly in that light? Remember, Toyota is not the only one having large recalls, it is just the latest to join the crowd of large recalls. And from what I have seen, Ford at least is keeping pace with Toyota this year, and then some. And none of Toyota's recalls cause vehicle fires. Which could be considered a plus. :-P

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • vix4vix4 Posts: 52
    The Wall Street Journal article on 8/25 has a quote from a "Senior Toyota Engineer" that said:

    "We used to do quiet recalls called 'service campaigns' to deal with many defects, but we're not going to hide anything anymore"

    I've seen a lot of people on Edmunds complain about Toyota's silent recalls, meaning if you compain enough they might do something.
  • vix4vix4 Posts: 52
    What is the status of Toyota's recall on the Tundra for the ball joints that fail and cause loss of sterring control?

    That defect is eerily familiar to the severe accident in Japan that Toyota is being investigated for hiding defects. In that accident, a faulty steering part in a Toyota resulted in loss of control and caused a head on collision.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    Those like myself who have been burned by the detroiters in the past will never forgive the lost time and lost dollars caused by 80's and 90's junk.

    If you are indeed prejudiced by the events of 15-25 years ago, as you indicate you are, then no, you will not be able to objectively evaluate the current crop of American car offerings to see that they are in no wise comparable to the problem-ridden offerings of two to three decades ago.

    In reality, a car buyer now is buying a current car, not one from decades past. It makes no sense to let ancient experiences color present objective evaluation.
Sign In or Register to comment.