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Toyota on the mend?

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  • You neglected to mention yet another category by the three writers; "Advice".

    Three of three writers recommend against purchase of the 2007 Camry ;)
  • The fact the media is suddenly taking a critical attitude toward Toyota is IMO a bigger story than the quality problems.

    Toyota has had 10-15 years in the media sun with hardly a critical word. They will find being on the media's bad side is no fun.

    I wonder if Toyota is being cast as the next 'Evil Corporate Villian'. Wal Mart is the current incumbent, but that can change - Sears, IBM, K Mart, GM, and Microsoft and others have filled the position in the past.
  • prigglypriggly Posts: 642
    generally positive review.

    Only the most obscure reading and interpretation of this lengthy article could result in it being construed as "generally positive."

    Yeah, it's so generally positive that NONE of the three writers recommended a buy of the 2007 Toyota Camry!

    So who is actually biased, huh?!!
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Alright already!

    I didn't realize there were two more pages: one on design and one on recommendations.

    So spank me!

    But one thing that the writers keep coming back to is the fact that their test car was a loaded top of the line V6 that cost $31,000. This appears to be a key factor in their overall negative review.

    I'd never get the V6 (all 3 of my former and current Camrys have the 4-cylinder), plus it seems that you'd get a lot more value for 2007 by purchasing the mainline LE model with just a sprinkling of options, such as electronic stability control.

    So equipped, the car would sticker at about $22,000. And there would be no fake wood to grouse about!
  • I have a 2004 Sienna LE. Toyota has had the gas tank, radiator, power steering hyd. fitting,steering joint, rear seat belt all replaced under warranty.
    The spot weld has broke on the drivers door that hold the check strap and the left rear automatic door blew up spraying plastic parts at my wife. This was one of the firts new Siennas made. I bought this van to get "Toyota quality" Quite frankly my 1992 Dodge Caravan was a better vehicle with less problems and I had that for 12 years.
    Toyota has not met my expectations.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,823
    clicked on your profile by mistake, and saw you are on the outer banks. went out there for vacation a couple of weeks ago, and loved it. planning going back next year.
    in the 80's, i had an awful experience with toyota, so i'll never go back there.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    From today onward it will begin to slow down from the 'crazy' season. In January you can shoot a cannon down the Bypass and not hit anything. It's nice here all the time though. We stay for the hurricanes as well.

    Coming from upstate NY, hurricanes are a lot like blizzards, hunker down, wait 'em out and clean up the mess afterward.
  • The problem is there is no bad press. Toyota has the LOCAL newspapers over a barrel. BAD press reports equals no advertising by Toyota. The avalanche has to roll a little further before the truth gets out. But it will!
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    And you don't think the same is true for other automakers regarding local papers? Remember the flap last year when an L.A. Times reporter gave the Pontiac G6 a bad review, and GM pulled its advertising from the Times for several months?
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    For past Toyota owners who had good experience with their cars, and thus refused to believe that something amiss is going on at Toyota, its perfectly understandable.

    However, I also realize that sometimes, people have FALLEN in LOVE with Toyota, one reason could be, some people are so enamoured by Toyota's hybrids that they think Toyota is the perfect automaker, environmentally responsible, save the world's oil etc.

    Thus when their darling brand comes under attack, they get defensive. They refuse to believe that Toyota's quality could have dropped. Again its perfectly understandable.

    For me, my stance is again neutral. I refuse to fall in love with any brand. Whoever gives me best value, wins my heart and my wallet. And my choice will always change depending on new car models coming out that appeals more to me.

    I am not a hybrid hater. Just that currently I refused to be enthralled by Toyota's hybrids (or Honda's or whoever's). Because I am aware that hybrids are extremely complicated machines. Even if Toyota made them, I refuse to think that Toyota can guarantee excellent reliability for XYZ years. Especially after the warranty period runs out.

    Anyway, with the small number of hybrids sold compared to conventionals, and the fact that Toyota STILL sells ever larger numbers of conventionals, including some gas guzzlers, ESPECIALLY in other parts of the world like third world countries, hybrids are losing the race, everyday, every hour.

    When one realizes the kinds of cars Toyota sell in third world countries, without any safety features, without even the basic catalytic converter, 15 mpg middle size minivans, (these are not big trucks or big SUVs mind you), just to make the price insanely cheap so that they can get bigger market share, one can't help but realize Toyota is just your typical corporate machine out to increase market share and profits.

    For those who think I am lying, I can give you info on some Toyota cars sold in less developed countries. Utterly disgraceful. Americans will never believe Toyota made them.

    Thus I am convinced Toyota is not like green peace, out to save the world. I study many car models sold around the world, and trust me, Toyota in many other countries, you will not believe the kind of cars they sell there. And many even sold in tens of thousands per month ! Talk about cleaning up the environment !

    Maybe Toyota cares about US air quality, but not those in less developed countries. As if there is a border separating clean US air and dirty third world country air !

    So how can Toyota's hybrids even hope to clean up the world environment when they are selling polluting, poor mpg cars in large numbers in less developed countries ? That's why I never believe hybrids can clean up the environment. The numbers are too stacked against them. Even their makers are not helping things. I think hybrids have more effect on image, feel good thing, lowering CAFE etc. so as to be able to sell some more gas guzzlers.

    Its OK for early owners of hybrids, still under warranty, but I predict that once the warranty period ended, I predict their resale value will plummet. With no more warranty to cover them, hybrid owners are on their own ! When those several thousand dollars battery expire, or other expensive components start to get old, wear out, who foots the bill ?

    Thus the only people who enjoy savings (even this is paltry) are the early hybrid buyers. Later used hybrid buyers could find the maintenance / spare parts costs could wipe out any gas savings they got.

    Thus I hope people, when they judge automakers like Toyota, one should be rational, not because they are deeply in love with a brand. Just because they make hybrids does not make Toyota infallible, make mistakes etc.

    I may sound critical of Toyota, but let me tell you, I don't hate Toyota. Only that Toyota is just another profit minded corporation. But I do get upset with Toyota when they preach about hybrids, cleaning up the environment, BUT they behave totally differently in other countries.

    Remember, hundreds of thousands of hybrids won't do any good if TENS of MILLIONS of other polluting Toyota cars from the less developed countries emit stuff which sooner or later will cross into US air, and pollute the whole world.

    Talking about Toyota hybrids / their models outside the US may sound out of topic, but my purpose is to highlight the fact that Toyota is NOT the saint that many thought they are. So judge them as a typical corporation, not some saint to embrace regardless of what happens...
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,196
    The air quality is horrible in Chinese cities. Shanghai looks like Pittsburgh circa 1955. I've heard that the air pollution in China is so bad that it actually reaches the west coast of the United States.
  • An avalanche starts out small. Problems and coverups of the last 6 months are changing the consumer's perception of Toyota.

    The press seems to have grabbed on to this story. They won't let go till Toyota resolves the issues that generated the story.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    I too have to show people about Toyota recalls/issues via the internet. Seems like noone knows about these issues??
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,668
    The "Toyota issues" have been all over the national news, including the cable networks and the big three networks. Newspapers as well - Wall Street Journal, for one. I have personally seen it on Fox and NBC or CBS, I forget which one, and I have spoken to numerous friends that have seen it on TV. I really do not see any "cover up" here, unless Toyota blocked the network broadcasts to all but me and my friends!
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Toyota's Plants run like clockwork

    This is a very informative set of stories.
  • Lots of interesting production info in the article, but the author brushes lightly over the problems of the last 6-8 months.

    Glossing over problems isn't much help in solving them.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Even a broken clock is right twice a day. :P
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Your point? Do other mass-market manufacturers put the extra safety features on their products sold in third-world countries? Do any put on catalytic converters? (This last might be a little tough if unleaded gas isn't readily available.)
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    Pls read this one more time :

    http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_08/b3921062.htm

    I have no doubt abt Toyota's process. It's a tried and proven system. BUT the problem is, folks, don't forget that Toyota DO NOT make 100% of all their car components themselves. Nowadays any car have many components which is made by external vendors, suppliers as we call them.

    Now, no matter how good the process is, IF the quality of the components coming in from those squeezed suppliers has dropped, what good will it do ? Less uniformity, less precise tolerance to needed specifications for example.

    I mean, I am not against reducing cost per se. BUT when Toyota decided to benchmark China prices to squeeze their traditional seasoned, albeit more expensive Japanese and American suppliers, I can SMELL trouble coming !

    Anyone who knows how China has become the world's toy factory (and other goods) knows how they did it. Their costs are just too low ! Their workers are paid a pitiful sum. Now, toys are simple stuff, so made in China toys probably will work fine.

    Now, we are talking about complex, high precision car components. I don't have to be a car engineer to know that Chinese suppliers just DON'T have enough EXPERIENCE and know how in matching old seasoned suppliers. Nothing to do with who is smarter.

    So imagine if you are a Japanese or American car part supplier. Toyota tells you " You got to give us prices similar to those made in China, or else ..."

    What do you do ? Can you EVER hope to come close to China prices considering your workforce, your machines are more expensive, but more experienced, and more capable of making higher quality parts ?

    But you still want Toyota's massive business. To come ever closer to Chinese price levels, you ......

    Will you go to your seasoned heart surgeon, and say " Doctor, that doctor 5 blocks away charges half of what you are charging (never mind that the younger doctor is less experienced, probably uses cheaper pay, fresh nurse graduates, and does'nt have the money or know how to find and invest in those more expensive heart surgery medical equipment). Match his fees or I am taking my heart to him ! Will you do that ?

    But that is what Toyota is precisely now doing ! Those who think I am making this up, pls read the businessweek article above ONE MORE TIME.

    Could a big corporation like Toyota make mistakes like that ? You bet ! Not because they are stupid, but size, money, and power got over their heads ! Do an autopsy of many former big corporations who have shrunk or gone bust, and you will know that corporations are just like any other human. They could screw themselves.

    If I remember correctly, K-mart used to be the king while Sam Walton is a small one shop retailer in Arkansas. Guess where is K-mart today ? Talk about the king becoming a pauper and the pauper the king !

    Someone said Watanabe have little say in Toyota's relationship with American suppliers. You think so ?

    Look. Toyota made most of their money in USA. More than 2 million per year recently in the US. So it's obvious that when we are talking about part supplies for Toyota cars in America, we are talking about mind boggling amounts of money.

    Will Watanabe, the zealous cost cutter, demanding China like prices, say to Jim Press " Jim, I am leaving this matter to you entirely ". ?

    More likely, Jim Press, probably inside his heart knows that American suppliers too deserve decent prices and profits. But with Watanabe his boss looking over his shoulder and breathing down his neck to make sure he gets what he wants, you think Jim Press have a choice ?

    Anyway who knows how many percent of Toyota cars made in America uses US, Japan, or China parts ? How much have this mix changed ?

    For me, there is no smoke without fire. If one insist that there is nothing amiss at Toyota, then I could only be convinced if someone can explain the logical consequences of " Match China prices or else " mentality, and that the recalls are zooming up way much faster than sales growth.
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    Excellent question my friend !

    Here is the tough irony. For example, in Indonesia and many other South East Asian countries, one best selling car is the Toyota Innova minivan. I heard this model alone sells 8k units per month in Indonesia ! That is big in a market of about 400k a year in Indonesia alone ! That means this model alone accounts for 24% market share ! For better or worse.

    The best selling Innova G version has ZERO airbags, ZERO ABS etc. ZERO catalytic converter. Nothing. Just car, engine, seats and wheels.

    How much do you think this car cost ? Guess. $15k ? I tell you. This EMPTY car is priced at $21k ! If you don't believe me, I can give you precise data. With the internet, I can know anything I want about any car around the world ! So do you if you want to check things out.

    On the other hand, the Chevrolet Zafira, the closest GM competitor to the Toyota Innova, has 2 airbags, ABS, full set of seatbelts, catalytic converter, many other accessories. But as a consequence, Zafira is priced higher at abt $25k. Some Toyota cars also do not have seatbelts in the 3rd row ! That's Watanabe cost cutting at work !

    I can't lie about such things. Do your own net search if you want to verify. Toyota Innova, Toyota Avanza is another atrocious car. Very cheap, at only $11k. 1300 cc engine that is supposed to carry 7 people in a small cramped body. Toyota's new child, Daihatsu, makes the same car with a 1000 cc engine !

    Will you buy a Toyota mini mini van that have 3 rows for 7 people, cramped though they are, powered by a 1300 cc engine ? Again ZERO safety features. ZERO ABS, ZERO catalytic converter ? That my friend is the TRUE FACE of Toyota in markets without regulations.

    And FYI, developing countries nowadays are not as pitiful as one might thought. For example in Indonesia, unleaded gas is plentyful, unlike in the 1970s and 80s. If you go to the Indonesian capital, Jakarta for vacation, you will be surprised to see many luxury cars like the BMWs, Mercedez, Lexuses, even some Ferraris ! These cars all need high octane gas, unleaded, and Indonesia do have them.

    But the thing is in a country like Indonesia, there is no strict emissions rules, no safety regulations. As a result, corporations like Toyota are free to take advantage of this and offer cheaper (but atrocious) polluting and poor mpg cars compared to the competition and get market share.

    Toyota have been doing this kind of thing in Indonesia and other countries for a long time, as a result, they are the biggest there now. And these models have very very fat profit margins, and made Toyota very rich (Compare the $21k empty Toyota Innova with what you can get in the US)

    Consumers there also think Toyota is saint. And that their cars are most affordable, cheap to run, never mind they are polluting the air and burning oil like crazy! Not to mention hazardous to their owners lives !

    Other brands are priced more because at first they refused to compromise safety and emissions, but after many years of doing business in these markets, they start to realize that in a country like Indonesia where people are not safety / environmentally conscious, they lose to Toyota's many cheaper offerings. They tried to follow, but too late !

    Not just in Indonesia, but Toyota did the same thing in other Asian countries, just that not as bad as in countries like Indonesia. The weaker the regulations, the more " empty, polluting " Toyota's offerings will be. Have a look around Toyota's websites around those " poorer " countries if you think I am lying.

    What about Honda ? and the others. From my observation, Honda is number 2 on the list of such behaviour after Toyota. The famed Honda Fit, known as the Jazz in Indonesia, is also a best seller. But unlike in the USA, The Fit in Indonesia is again stripped of all safety features and the catalytic converter. As a result, the price is " only " $16k. If not for the Fit, Honda will be unable to catch Toyota in Indonesia.

    Nissan is the latecomer, and the more " Dumb / idealistic " one. Why ? All of Nissan's offerings, (with the exception of 1 decade old model), all come with safety features and catalytic converters. As a result, all are priced higher than Toyotas and Hondas. Result ? Far smaller market share. Much less than the ratio of Nissan is to Toyota and Honda in the US. Same with GM and Ford.

    Perhaps Nissan's French DNA today prohibit Nissan from offering too many atrocious cars. French cars, though a joke in the US, is known as equipped with many safety features in many markets around the world.

    So its obvious that in countries with poor regulations, the winners like Toyota and Honda can win because they are willing to be " ruthless ". Safety and emissions must be thrown out of the window, because consumers there don't care about such things, and not willing to pay for them. The idealistic ones will have to suffer with less sales and profits !

    Don't get me wrong. What Toyota and Honda has done is not a criminal act. It's perfectly logical, in line with what a profit minded corporation will do. The thing is this PROVES Toyota is profit minded, not environmentally conscious like what many think they are. Just this simple. Don't make Toyota out to be a clean saint.

    If they indeed want to help save the oil, clean up the air etc, they will not have removed safety features, remove catalytic converters from their best selling models. Result ? Cleaner air around the world, BUT less money for Toyota.

    By the way, how much does 2 airbags, ABS, catalytic converters cost ? Not a lot, but Toyota realizes that multiply this small sum by big volumes and presto ! Lots of extra cash ! And who don't want extra cash ?

    FYI, in countries like these, there are NO hybrids sold. Why should Toyota and Honda sell hybrids there ? Because there are NO CAFE rules there. And Toyota / Honda knows that hybrids are more difficult / expensive to repair and maintain, which might affect their image in these markets as " cheap and easy to maintain brands ".

    Which route has Toyota (and Honda) chosen ? You tell me. Remember, like the letter in a bottle which is floated on the ocean to send ocean mail to other continents like in the movies, dirty air from a country like China, Indonesia WILL reach US airspace sooner or later.

    If anyone don't think so, tell that to the 911 hijackers. There are NO barriers in US airspace. Air around the world flows, they don't stay put.

    That's why I think deep down inside, Toyota and Honda are THE SAME as GM, Ford etc. Just that they play the PR game more smartly ! And their hybrids sure give them the ticket to sell more conventionals / gas guzzlers ! Not to mention clean image in the minds of many Americans who doesn't know how they behave in other markets. Remove CAFE and I want to see what happens !
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Broad ranging rant from flatworlder's view about hybrid technology to third world sales to some viewpoint that Toyota is saintly.

    I am not a hybrid hater. Just that currently I refused to be enthralled by Toyota's hybrids (or Honda's or whoever's). Because I am aware that hybrids are extremely complicated machines. Even if Toyota made them, I refuse to think that Toyota can guarantee excellent reliability for XYZ years. Especially after the warranty period runs out.

    Yours is one common opinion though it's not borne out by any facts as yet since most hybrids are still within warranty. You do have your right to be skeptical but facts do not support anything yet except that the vehicles perform as expected.

    As to performing after XYZ years this is too vague to be of any value unless by three digits you mean 100+ years then you are correct, they will not perform after 100+ years. I think what you are really saying is that you have no idea ( XYZ years ) about how long these will go on and you are unwilling to take any risk. This specific part of your pov belongs on another thread but it's commonplace and similar to the commonly held pov in 1491 that the world was flat; i.e. something bad has to happen at the end of the world ( end of the warranty period ) because we've never been there. But...what if the world really was round?

    Talking about Toyota hybrids / their models outside the US may sound out of topic, but my purpose is to highlight the fact that Toyota is NOT the saint that many thought they are. So judge them as a typical corporation, not some saint to embrace regardless of what happens...

    You might have thought that - or for some reason you may think others view Toyota like this - but as a former supplier to all of the major 5 automakers here I can give you the perspective that it's always has been just about business and profit. It always has been and it always will be.

    This is good. It's the way capitalism works.
  • it's always has been just about business and profit. It always has been and it always will be.

    That is very true. It is for profit reasons that Toyota is taking serious steps to solve recent quality problems.

    They can't afford to have their well-deserved reputation for quality evaporate by pushing vehicles to market too soon.

    Delaying a few vehicle launches to keep quality up to Toyota standards is a very sound business decision.
  • My friend has a 2004 4Runner with 50,000 miles. She has maintained it with the dealer and followed all instructions etc. In July the truck autoignited! It was at rest for two hours, and then burst into flames. Toyota gave her a huge run around. We complained to their "experience center" and they sent a fire inspector t look at the vehicle. He said the cable between the battery and the alternator was corroded and that caused the fire, and Toyota was not going to do anything to help. So the lesson is don't buy a Toyota unless you live in the desert. Toyota's customer service is worse than the product. I used to love Toyota! :mad: :mad: :mad:
  • kc7kc7 Posts: 96
    Call me ranting if you want, all I am doing is blowing the whistle. And I know whistle blowers usually don't end up in good shape. But I just can't stop blowing.

    I admire your optimism. But this time I think you have chosen the wrong analogy. True, the world is flat thing has been disproved. Just look at a photo from NASA space shuttle is enough to convince the most stubborn 3 year old.

    BUT, here is the big BUT my friend, a hybrid MAN MADE car isn't anything close to a NATURAL static Earth. As general Patton says " Anything man-made can be overcome ". The Germans used to think that their sigfried Line defence is impregnable. So is Titanic thought to be unsinkable.

    Earth will probably be round for a long long time, till the end. BUT for God's sake, I am frankly surprised that even if Toyota STILL makes the highest quality cars (hmm, the recent massive recalls of CONVENTIONAL Toyota cars have further dampened my optimism of how reliable those complicated Toyota hybrids can get), you sound optimistic enough to think that hybrids can hold up under the stresses of everyday use for a very long time.

    Never mind that those awesomely priced spareparts and service post warranty hybrid owners face could give them more headaches than the Chairman of the Fed.

    I get your point, but using the Earth is round-not-flat analogy is way off the mark my friend. As Emperor Palpatine retorted to Luke Skywalker inside the Death Star after Luke taunted him abt his confidence in his Death Star : " Your FAITH in your friends is your weakness ! "

    And Toyota is no Luke Skywalker in a science fiction story. These massive failures / recalls are REAL my friend ! It affects real lives, threatened safety of passengers and other cars as well ! Read those cases in Japan where even many of the patriotic Japanese are deeply shocked at what is happening to their pride of Japan car maker.

    In my opinion, these huge recalls FURTHER reinforced my caution about hybrid reliability. What MAKES you think that Toyota's MUCH more complicated hybrids will perform more reliably than their conventional, much simpler cousins, who are running into trouble in ever greater numbers these days ?

    Furthermore, one other thing about hybrids is they are helping the rich get even richer. How will you feel if one day, Toyota makes a new Prius, one that can do say 80 mpg, cost $50k, which makes the sales volume so small as to have an effect on the environment, more like a drop of blood in a million gallons of water.

    And the federal government gives even bigger tax incentives to people who buy them, say $8K, BECAUSE its 80 mpg ! who naturally are in the upper income category.

    Leonardo Di Caprio will surely trade in his old Prius and laugh again at being subsidized and reduce his fuel bills further. Meanwhile the school teacher next door who can't afford to buy a new hybrid, and still using his old 25 mpg car will be labelled " Irresponsible to the environment " Who REALLY needs those incentives ? Those hybrid incentives are going to the wrong people !

    Well, for those who insist that Toyota cars are ever superb and those hybrids can last for 10 years without a hiccup, its OK with me if you buy them. I don't lose a penny if you do that. All I am trying to do on this forum is say " Read the signs, watch out ! Better wait till the smoke has cleared ".
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,196
    Wow, like the average person would know the portion of that long cable that cannot be seen was corroded. Toyota's only lucky that she wasn't in the truck when it ignited, not only for the certain lawsuit filed on behalf of her survivors but also for the field day the press would've had with the story. Just give her a new truck and be done with it.
  • of the old story from the early days of Rolls Royce involving a customer who called for an invoice.

    The customer had a Rolls and his axle broke. RR factory sent out a mechanic who replaced the axle.

    A few weeks later the customer calls the factory asking where his bill is. Factory person says "Bill for what?' and the customer replies "For replacing the broken axle on my car." Factory person responds "Sir, no Rolls Royce has ever had a broken axle!".
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You missed the point entirely of the analogy.

    It was fear of the unknown in both cases.

    I have three Toyota's now and two under recall. The Prius was done during a normal oil change; the Highlander needs clips added to the center console carpeting. This is a recall??? Adding clips to carpeting???

    You have written a lot of words but your key point is:

    In my opinion, these huge recalls FURTHER reinforced my caution about hybrid reliability. What MAKES you think that Toyota's MUCH more complicated hybrids will perform more reliably than their conventional, much simpler cousins, who are running into trouble in ever greater numbers these days

    Seven Toyota's since 1989 with a total of under $400 in 'unexpected' repairs ( strut caps on one Camry ). Total mileage since 1989 is well over 500,000 miles. Based on these experiences, Toyota has won my confidence and until proven otherwise ( despite the slanted opinion of one who is afraid of possibly falling off the edge of the earth ) they will continue to have my full confidence.

    I've already put my own money in play by getting a Prius last Nov. In 9 months and 27,000 miles - nothing. It's just as I expected; 48.5 mpg day in and day out and not a single unexpected expense.

    You are perfectly free to continue to be afraid of falling off the edge of the earth.

    BTW, yes, you really are ranting ;) .
  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    Seven Toyota's since 1989 with a total of under $400 in 'unexpected' repairs ( strut caps on one Camry ). Total mileage since 1989 is well over 500,000 miles.

    seven toyotas divided by 500k miles is only 71k each, so anyone should expect minimal repairs with that kind of mileage with any make of veichle, hardly worth bragging about.

    I have three Toyota's now and two under recall. The Prius was done during a normal oil change; the Highlander needs clips added to the center console carpeting. This is a recall??? Adding clips to carpeting???


    so what does that tell me? That using your own facts 2 out of 3 toyotas on the road today could quite likely be under a recall. :sick: G.M or Ford have never been able to put up numbers like that :P
    Do you really think they would recall your highlander just because of a couple clips on your carpet if there were absolutely no safety concerns about it? I dont think so, possibly the carpet may pull away from the floor and get bunched up under the brake pedal? who knows but rest assured behind the smoke and mirrors there is a good reason for the recall, quite possibly another hidden recall to get you in there so they can fix another more serious problem without the press getting ahold of the more serious problem. Toyota is scrambling to get its Q.C. under control because they have built a reputation that boring cars will sell as long as you have people brainwashed into thinking they are getting superior quality and reliability, take away the perceived superiority all you are left with is an ugly car :surprise:
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    seven toyotas divided by 500k miles is only 71k each, so anyone should expect minimal repairs with that kind of mileage with any make of veichle, hardly worth bragging about

    Good point. To be precise, I've had 5 ( 4 Camry's and the Prius ) with just under 500,000 mi and my wife now has two ( Highlander and the MR2 ) with about 20K each; roughly 120K on each of the Camry's and currently 28K on the Prius.

    Nevertheless the total 'unexpected out-of-pocket' costs over all 7 vehicles is under $400. Now on 5 detroiter vehicles in the 80's and 90's I had to sink in excess of upwards of $10K into them ( one was returned as a lemon ) in under 10 years. EAch of these 5 barely lasted to 50K without some major costly problem. There is just no comparison. Based on this personal anecdotal data I remain confident that I will have to spend next to nothing on any of the current three Toyota's that I have.

    Recalls:
    This is an entirely different story because while it was scandalous in the past like divorce was in the 40's and 50's recalls now are just a common occurance to fix potential problems before they become major fiasco's like Ford and Firestone went through. I think this is perfectly rational and good business. All the automakers learned what not to do in the Ford/Firestone mess.

    Yesterday Chrysler just recalled 200K vehicles to fix ... cupholders. Yes there might be a potential problem affecting safety but the real story is that likely every vehicle being built will have some minor adjustment made to it, it's just that the fixes will be done using the recall mechanism. Priorly these adjustments were done as 'service campaigns' but they were still being done. After all autos are only electromechanical objects.

    Fixing carpeting and fixing cupholders receives the same weight of importance in recall statistics as any very serious problem so I expect the recall statistics for all manufacturers to balloon in the coming years.

    2005 recall stats

    GM .. 5 Million vehicles
    Ford .. 6 Million vehicle
    DC .. 766,000 vehicles
    Toyota .. 2.2 Million vehicles

    snippet:
    But safety officials cautioned that recall numbers vary widely from year to year, and it is hard to draw conclusions about safety trends from them. While 2005 saw far fewer vehicles recalled than in 2004, the number was pretty close to the total in 2003, when 19.1 million vehicles were recalled.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Good points.

    And about floor mat clips. Cars have had floor mats for as long as I can remember (the 50s), and I have no doubt they go back much farther than that. But it was only after the Audi 5000 "sudden acceleration" flap of the mid 80s that something was done about "pedal misapplication," that is, mistakenly hitting the gas pedal instead of the brakes.

    First came the transmission shift interlock, in which manufacturers voluntarily added a mechanism to make it impossible to shift an automatic transmission from Park to Reverse unless the brake pedal was depressed. These became common in the early 90s as I recall, but are still not mandated.

    Then, those little hooks (or velcro) to hold down floor mats started appearing. IIRC, these were introduced around 10 years ago, and now are nearly universal, at least for the driver's floor mat. Again, there is no government mandate.

    So now, there are recalls for items which are not required, and further, did not even exist in the not-too-distant past.
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