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Hybrids - Long On Mileage, Short On Soul

24

Comments

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Many hybrid owners give names to their vehicles and talk to them, much as they would a pet, albeit with less feedback....:)
  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    WHY am I not surprised..... :P
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    "But hybrids aren't about DRIVING, they are about conserving."

    Bad assumption. A few years ago I contemplated on leasing Acura NSX. One of the major issues... 7500 mile/year limit on it. Well, I drive more than twice that in a year. I guess, I would be forced to driving less in a "driver's car"... eh?

    If you (and others) continue to insist that soul must require only driving and nothing else, well, I must say that the assumption is quite... closed minded.

    To me, its all in passion. How a vehicle goes about delivering its responsibility.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,990
    Hmmm...I think people are confusing the subject of the forum..we aren't talking about the person owning the car, we are talking about the car itself having soul. Human nature will often have a lot of emotion over things/people who are really quite vapid.

    A Ferrari or Corvette, howling down the road, smoking tires, with gorgeous styling, amazing performance and challenging dynamics for the driver, can never be equated with putting the little lever down in the Prius and going "click". The Ferrari or Corvette are not "concepts of your own mind"--you can SEE, hear feel smell, touch and experience the reality of the car's soul. If anything I found the Prius was the absence of sensation.

    Are pro football and ping pong the same? Hardly.

    Yeah, I know, someone will bring up the "passion" of golf, but I think "obsession" with golf is closer to it, as is obsession with gas mileage---it's a nerd thing---a Prius is a video game that you drive more or less.

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  • rorrrorr Posts: 3,630
    "If you (and others) continue to insist that soul must require only driving and nothing else, well, I must say that the assumption is quite... closed minded."

    Yep. Pretty much. Just like I'm fairly close minded on what constitues a 'sportscar' (is it whatevertheheck the owner WANTS it to be? Or should there be SOME criteria?)

    If we assume the point of a vehicle (any vehicle) is to be driven....then the 'soul' of that vehicle is based on that aspect.

    If we assume that 'soul' of a vehicle is based merely on whether or not it's owner has a passion for it, then ANY car could be considered to have soul.

    "To me, its all in passion."

    But what drives (pardon the pun) the passion?

    If an individual is passionette about economy, then does EVERY car which is highly efficient qualify has having 'soul'? Or we confusing passion for the individual car with passion for the car's purpose?

    Just how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin?
  • kernickkernick Posts: 4,072
    you: ...7500 mile/year limit on it. Well, I drive more than twice that in a year. I guess, I would be forced to driving less in a "driver's car"... eh?

    me: you can drive a leased car however much you want; the only limit is if you want to keep the low-rate. You simply pay extra for every mile after. If the lease didn't fit you, and you wanted it, you should have bought it and took a loan.

    you: If you (and others) continue to insist that soul must require only driving and nothing else, well, I must say that the assumption is quite... closed minded.

    me: you're welcome to your opinion; but based on that line of reasoning, any object can be an object of passion. I can paint a picture that I'm passionate about, but I doubt anyone here is going to feel that way about or give me $10. So yes you can argue that a hybrid can have sould because when it is stationary, you are passionate about the way it looks. BUT most people have a car to DRIVE it, not as a work of art.

    you: How a vehicle goes about delivering its responsibility.

    me: a car (or any non-human item) has responsibility? Where do these ideas come from - ancient Greek science books on the nature of matter?

    Look, the ultimate conservation of fuel and elimination of emissions is to never start a car - hybrid or non-hybrid. If conservation and ecology are your passion, then all you are left with as an ideal - is to look at the car parked. Thus your passion for the ideal car and hybrid, is as a non-running work of art.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,990
    a non running car isn't really a car, it's an idea of a car at that point. It has become mythologized if you will.

    Some people might say Miles Davis' music had "soul". (or substitute your favorite big time musician)

    Well that requires a) the instrument and b) the man to play it.

    Miles being dead and his trumpet in a glass case in a museum rather makes the argument of "soul" a mute point. It's over.

    So man + instrument = soul

    No, Wait!

    CERTAIN man(woman) + CERTAIN instrument = soul

    Miles on accordian? ---- NAH

    Me on trumpet? ----- NAH

    Carroll Shelby in a Prius? ---- NAH

    Carroll Shelby in a GT350 --- there you go!!

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  • carlisimocarlisimo Posts: 1,280
    I thought soul was something that lasted beyond the death of body.

    Yeah... I like where this conversation has gone =].

    But seriously... you're letting the Prius define hybrid cars for you. It'd be like saying family cars have no soul because the Camry doesn't. You could make other arguments against family cars having soul. Their purpose is safety and practicality; they're not meant to be driven vigorously; nothing in their design has performance as a priority.

    And yet some family sedans and wagons have managed it. Even the Citroen Berlingo is widely acknowledged to have soul (albeit work mule, not stallion). One day, a hybrid could too.
  • lemmerlemmer Posts: 2,676
    I think "obsession" with golf is closer to it, as is obsession with gas mileage---it's a nerd thing

    I thought I was the only one who thought that. Being a professional in the South who doesn't play golf puts me at a disadvantage. I am one of the few who don't hunt or fish either.

    I equate golf to business suits - they both work best for fat, rich, white guys who are trying to compensate for their lack of appealing physical attributes.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,990
    Hahaha...what I meant was that golf is a "mental game", and as such I am not apt to consider it passionate...it's more like chess and it is like boxing.

    No, I think a car's soul is strictly earthly in nature. It dies with the car I'm afraid.

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  • mirthmirth Posts: 1,212
    An apt opinion from autoextremist.com:

    http://www.autoextremist.com/page5.shtml
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,990
    I think his world packed up and left while he was sleeping however....

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  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    hybrids seem like a step back from a enthusiasts point of view. Remember when they first came out with smog control? Remember the cars from the late 70s and 80s. Any kid with a 60s pony or mussel cars looked down on your poor underpowered what ever you had. But you did get better fuel mileage and were supposed to produce less pollution. But the cars were less on the enjoyment scale than the ones we already had. Hybrids that we now have are much like those days. We can hope for better but who knows how long it will take?
  • mistermemisterme Posts: 407
    "Hybrids that we now have are much like those days"

    I remember when the first ESC's came into the market and people were afraid to get away from mechanical points.

    Then they were installed on every car.
    About the same time ECM's showed up and FI.
    Today we no longer see the "Fuel Injected" rear or side markings.
    Alot of people were apprehensive about computer controlled cars and the "dark cloud" of mystery about them.

    A computer couldn't set the timing as well as I could with my light anyway...right??

    Some of my first cars were a '69 Ply FuryII with a 318, a magnificent runner.
    Later I owned two Pintos and a Vega.

    My Pinto 4spd did fairly, my Pinto AT was terrible and the Vega's acceleration rate was purely psychological.

    boaz47, the hybrids of today can't be compared to what I've just described.

    I think if you took an owner satisfaction survey at the time with Pintos and Vegas along with several other cars of their class you'd find a very, very low satisfaction rate.
    (Although higher with some [non-permissible content removed] models)

    Compare that to hybrid owners of today in which the vast majority love them and are very satisfied...

    Have you ever wondered why that is, and why most non-hybrid owners "Just don't get it?"
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    Well in truth I have noticed that. But I have also noticed that I was talking form a performance perspective. Today's hybrid owners are a cause all unto themselves. They will defend the performance of their vehicles even if they happen to be the slowest cars in the fleet of the company making them. The first generation Prius is a prime example. Are they satisfied with their cars? I bet they are because they are making a statement as much as they are driving a car they like.

    However many non hybrid owners are car enthusiasts and what we do get is that Honda came to the car shows with a hybrid that produced close to 400 HP and looked cool but that wasn't what hit the street. We got the Insight and while it got great fuel mileage, and it's owners loved it, the car sure couldn't keep up with what we were already getting from Honda in a Civic SI or Accord.

    I haven't been trying to say hybrids are a step back in technology, even if to a degree they are. They are a result of 30 years of technology that promised us pure green cars. Hybrids are a compromise with a promise given 30 years ago. What I am saying is that hybrids are a step back in performance and driving enthusiasm. want to impress me with a hybrid? Get me through the 1/4 mile in under 15 seconds stock. Allow me to corner at .8 Gs. Do that and give me 40 MPG. Then they would be a step forward in "all" areas. :D A bit tongue in cheek here, but they could cure freeway chase screens on TV by forcing the Highway patrol into a fleet of Priusi. They couldn't catch anyone. But I am sure Prius owners would be satisfied with their cars, and their pocket protectors. ;)
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    many non hybrid owners are car enthusiasts
    Car enthusiasts don't have to have the most powerful and fastest cars in the block. Enthusiasm for cars can come in a variety of ways. I consider myself a car enthusiast, but would never rule out as something that doesn't belong in my book. Why should I?
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    Is there a current hybrid on your dream list of cars you are enthusiastic about? When you compare specifications on several cars is fuel mileage your first concern above any other performance factor? If you answered yes to that the next question would be, do you have a hybrid?
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Your questions have nothing to do with the point I made. In my book car enthusiasts love cars... a variety of them, even though they may or may not own them. These are "car people" I'm talking about. These are like environmentalists who respect all trees as equal but don't necessarily have all of them planted in their backyard.

    I will answer your questions though... you ask is fuel mileage my first concern over any other performance factor? Honestly, I don't buy a car for one thing. I buy a package. If it helps answer your question, I picked Accord I-4 over Accord V6. Could have gone for LXV6 which was $800 cheaper than the EX-L I got... didn't. Would you like to guess why?

    I would consider a hybrid, but at this time, I fancy TSX but this does not mean I don't have respect for hybrid technology. Besides, it will be wonderful if Acura launched a TSX Hybrid. I've talked about it, since 2002 Acura RDX prototype was displayed (basically using TSX's engine, coupled to in-wheel electric motors for an AWD setup with 250 HP).
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    Thank you. The last part of that post answered my question and was my point. And I like the idea as much as you. Not what we got however.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I don't mind what we have got today. They have their own appeal. Pickups have never been my thing, and I do just fine without one... they are something I would rent once in a while on need basis than own. But, I couldn't use my needs to judge their existence, or even appreciate their qualities.

    BTW, there is a potential hybrid (Honda Fit) that has made me consider as a replacement to my 2000 Civic (second car)... if it happens next year, and delivers, it might just make it to my garage.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,695
    no cars will have "soul". Not hybrids, not non-hybrids, none. You want proof, just look at the maker of the "ultimate driving machine" - BMW has been increasing the amount of control the machine (read: computer, mostly) exerts while concurrently squeezing the driver ever-so-slowly out of the equation for at least a decade now. These days, many of the BMWs above the base 325 and 330 in the line-up drive like very fancy video games that just happen to have very high limits for cornering and big engines with big power.

    The Accord hybrid almost exactly matches the EPA rating of the 4-cylinder Accord (actually does a little better), although who knows how it actually does in the real world. But I bet it does 25% better than the regular V-6, and also beats Accords equipped with that engine by 0.6 seconds or more to 60 mph. On the same tires, with the same chassis components, so unlike some of the greener hybrids you don't have to sacrifice handling to drive it.

    Heck, what portion of the fleet really has soul any more anyway? Cars are becoming so humdrum as the automakers continue their ever-increasing cost-cutting and rush to the center of the market, and as computers and smog emissions basically take over to dictate the final product.

    Vehicles that generate any real excitement will be a tiny niche by 2025, you watch. :-(

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Seventy one owners that report their mileage to greenhybrid.com have contributed to suggest an average fuel economy of 29 mpg. Not bad at all, for an entry luxury family sedan with 253 HP on tap. Extracting more mileage can be a part of fun too, I have tried that myself, but that is in my 1998 Accord I-4.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,750
    You are more than likely right. But I know it won't be people like you that speed the demise of cars with soul. ;)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,175
    You got his number. He is a Manual Transmission man all the way. Not nearly as vocal as midcow. Just the same he goes for the control. No drive by wire BS for nippononly... You gotta love it...
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Posts: 1,828
    Seventy one owners that report their mileage to greenhybrid.com have contributed to suggest an average fuel economy of 29 mpg.

    What does the gas Accord achieve??
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,175
    What does the gas Accord achieve??

    According to the EPA website the 2006 Accord 4C is getting 29.1 MPG combined by those posting. The 6 Grand gets you a faster Accord with decent mileage.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    From EPA's website ("mileage reported from drivers like you")
    Accord I-4/5AT: 25.2 mpg
    Accord V6/5AT : 23.7 mpg
    Accord Hybrid : 28.5 mpg

    These numbers are for MY2005.
  • jlawrence01jlawrence01 Posts: 1,828
    From EPA's website ("mileage reported from drivers like you")
    Accord I-4/5AT: 25.2 mpg
    Accord V6/5AT : 23.7 mpg


    Whew, I did not know that the mileage on the gas models were that low.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,175
    There is an improvement in the 2006 Accord non hybrids.
    4C Auto
    Average User MPG 27.8 EPA posted is 28 MPG combined
    6C Auto
    Average User MPG 24.6 EPA posted is 23 MPG combined

    For some unknown reason the Accord Hybrid had a drop in
    the EPA combined rating from 2005 to 2006
    The 2005 rating was 32 MPG combined. The average user was getting 28.5 MPG combined.
    The 2006 rating is 28 MPG combined and no one is reporting mileage on the 2006 so far. It looks as though the ads from Honda are correct. They say V6 performance with 4C mileage.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Honda probably "adjusted" the EPA estimate for its Hybrid to what people were actually receiving, as opposed to blindly following EPA standards. Or, it could be that Honda went proactive and adopted what could be the new EPA standard next year(?).

    Regardless, to draw a fair comparison between gas models and the hybrid, I preferred the same source and same year. Mileage on the 2006 Hybrid shouldn't change just because Honda reduced the EPA estimate (28.5 mpg from EPA's website is very close to 29.2 mpg or so being reported at greenhybrid.org, so the number seems consistent, and about what one could expect from the new EPA estimate).
This discussion has been closed.