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Hybrids - Long On Mileage, Short On Soul

124

Comments

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    Or, it could be that Honda went proactive and adopted what could be the new EPA standard next year(?).

    That is what I am thinking took place. I imagine the actual will now be as good or better than the EPA estimates. If you look at all the Honda cars they seem closer to the EPA estimates than comparable Toyota cars. Again I am only checking 2006 models as that is what are being sold now.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    If you look at all the Honda cars they seem closer to the EPA estimates than comparable Toyota cars.

    I have noticed that too, in person, and in reviews.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,786
    "Honda probably "adjusted" the EPA estimate for its Hybrid to what people were actually receiving, as opposed to blindly following EPA standards."

    Lets hope not, they would be liable for millions of dollars in fines and penalties.
  • boaz47boaz47 Posts: 2,744
    EPA estimates anyway. I used to think it was an average between city and highway mileage but the first time I tried that I realized it was something else all together. I also realized that when I was commuting to LA from Riverside most of my mileage was highway so my reported average mileage would have been higher.

    When I had my old Saturn SC-1 I would get 39-40 MPG on trips up to the Bay area from OC when taking my Sister up there to visit friends. And that was with three people in the car. No where on the sticker did the SC-1 list 40 MPG.

    The only Hybrid that has totally impressed me with fuel mileage has been the Insight. Highway mileage on that car is truly impressive. But I am not a city dweller nor do I spend a lot of time driving in a large metropolitan area. I would bet for people living in such large Cities as LA, or NYC would find them useful. But for that they could have jumped on the Electric bandwagon and burned no fuel. Toyota RAV4 electrics would have been a true green machine for city living.
    (rant alert) :mad:
    To get on my soap box for a second that has always been a gripe of mine. The greenies have jumped on the compromise the auto industry offered and allowed the totally non polluting vehicles to fall by the wayside. I know the hybrids beat a sharp stick in the eye but they are "exactly" what the manufacturers offered California when CARB first came up with the idea of non polluting vehicles over 30 years ago. CARB insisted on vehicles that were totally green by 2001 or so and the manufacturers offered hybrids. CARB rejected that idea and 30 years later we have the manufacturers producing hybrids and Toyota, Ford, and GM have stopped offering any electric car. It simply goes to my assertion that CARB is staffed with political appointees that haven't a clue. It would be just as well if the EPA took over and CARB was abolished.

    (end of rant) :cry:
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    they would be liable for millions of dollars in fines and penalties.
    Why would they be?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    According to the EPA only 15% of the cars are tested by the government. The rest are tested by the manufacturer to EPA standards. It would be easy to fudge slightly either direction and still be in the loose parameters set out by the EPA. Honda wants credibility and opted to the lower figures. Toyota?????

    Ford is also closer to reality on their hybrids than Toyota/Lexus.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Explain more precisely please.

    The EPA tests are clear and published. If anyone wants they can get the testing parameters and drive according to the EPA standards. If you do this you will get EPA figures. I've done it.

    As a matter of fact I can take any ICE or hybrid and closely replicate the EPA tests and obtain the same or better FE values than what is reported on the stickers.

    Again using Greenhybrid's data as a measuring stick it confirms nearly all the individual reports and actual comparison tests done.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    Explain more precisely please.

    I wrote to the EPA and their response was that 85% of all models are tested by the manufacturers. Using the parameters published by the EPA. They would not give any information as to which vehicles they actually tested. That leaves room for error. Like maybe that car was slightly better than the average etc etc. According to greenhybrid records of individual cars, the 537 Prius II owners posting averaged 47.5 MPG combined. That is about 14% off of the 55 MPG combined that the EPA estimated or that Toyota estimated using the EPA prescribed tests.

    We have hashed this all out before. The bottom line is Honda cars in real life get closer to the EPA estimates than Toyota Cars overall. Draw your own conclusions.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Here is a good measuring stick as to how EPA Estimate (Overall), EPA Observed (Reported) and GreenHybrid.Com (Reported) numbers stack up for various hybrids:

    Honda Insight CVT
    EPA Estimate: 56.0 mpg
    EPA Reported: NA
    GreenHybrid : 54.0 mpg (-2 mpg/ 96% of the estimate)

    Honda Civic CVT (2006)
    EPA Estimate: 50.0 mpg
    EPA Reported: 45.8 mpg (-4.2 mpg/92% of the estimate)
    GreenHybrid : 45.7 mpg (-4.3 mpg/91% of the estimate)

    Honda Accord 5AT (2005)*
    EPA Estimate: 32.0 mpg
    EPA Reported: 28.5 mpg (-3.5 mpg/89% of the estimate)
    GreenHybrid : 29.4 mpg (-2.6 mpg/92% of the estimate)

    Note: Honda revised the fuel economy estimate for 2006 Accord Hybrid. The new EPA Estimate: 28.0 mpg, which is about what people have reported to EPA (28.5 mpg), and 1.4 mpg less than what people at GreenHybrid have reported.

    Toyota Prius II
    EPA Estimate: 55.0 mpg
    EPA Reported: 47.9 mpg (-7.1 mpg/87% of the estimate)
    GreenHybrid : 47.5 mpg (-7.5 mpg/86% of the estimate)

    Toyota Highlander FWD
    EPA Estimate: 30.0 mpg (2006)
    EPA Reported: 26.0 mpg (-4.0 mpg/87% of the estimate)
    GreenHybrid : 23.6 mpg (-6.4 mpg/79% of the estimate)

    Hondas have delivered closer to the EPA estimate as opposed to the Toyotas.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Honda Accord 5AT (2005)*
    EPA Estimate: 32.0 mpg
    EPA Reported: 28.5 mpg (-3.5 mpg/89% of the estimate)
    GreenHybrid : 29.4 mpg (-2.6 mpg/92% of the estimate
    ) 29.1 mean ..small diff

    Toyota Highlander FWD
    EPA Estimate: 30.0 mpg (2006)
    EPA Reported: 26.0 mpg (-4.0 mpg/87% of the estimate)
    GreenHybrid : 23.6 mpg (-6.4 mpg/79% of the estimate)
    25.6 mean ..more of a difference
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    I suppose that with all the cars converging to mere transportation appliances in the near future, I would consider a hybrid, if they could get one with four real seats to do an honest 50 mpg plus in everyday driving. But NOT with an auto or a CVT. If it doesn't have a stick, I aint buying. Which is what I am sure will keep me out of hybrids for the remainder of my driving life.

    After I lose my battle with the stars over the extermination of the manual transmission, I am going to wage a new battle on the growing obesity of the fleet. Hybrids are all guilty in this regard - we so desperately need better battery technology.

    My desire for light cars that still feel connected to the road without 26 electronic aids and filters in between my hands and the pavement will probably limit my future purchases to small cheap cars, and likely not a hybrid in the bunch. :-/

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    What is the future engine ?

    A DOD, Hybrid, Bio-Diesel that runs on Ethanol, Hydrogen, or McDonalds Grease. What's next, "Mr. Fusion" from back the future, where you can throw in a banana peels and a 1/4 full miller high life can :surprise:

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    the self-appointed "experts" claim that HCCI is the future engine. But it won't be ready for some time.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It comes from no "self appointed experts". The link...

    ...Significant Progess on HCCI Engine...

    Rumor was that Honda will showcase an HCCI engine prototype sometime this year.
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    when I said "self-appointed experts" I was referring to folks just like the ones that wrote that article. Obviously, no-one can reliably predict the future. But this looks to be a big step forward for Honda on its hybrids. I hope they really can bring it to market in a year.

    I am never one to get too enthusiastic about learning the technical details of every new powertrain that comes down the pike, but I think of HCCI as being sort of like a diesel engine, but using gasoline as the fuel, with a massive consequent reduction in NOx emissions.

    And it uses no spark plugs. If we hadn't already said bye-bye to the tune-up pretty much, we certainly will when/if HCCI becomes widespread.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    I won't use the word "self appointed experts" because HCCI is being developed by a lot of companies. Certainly doesn't guarantee itself as THE design of the future, but then, nothing does.

    BTW, HCCI is, at least in theory, said to be able to run on gasoline as well as diesel, bio etc. The design concepts certainly look like a diesel engine's, and if high rpm operation is a challenge, it may certainly hold more promise with hybrid implementation (Toyota and Ford ICE with hybrid technology aren't really designed to work at high rpm either).
  • hpmctorquehpmctorque Posts: 4,167
    The '07 Lexus LS 600 hL exhibited at the New York International Auto Show is interesting and impressive, for sure, but its weight and complexity are strong negatives for me.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    It will be Hott !!!!! I am a GM car guy for sure, but respect the technology and even more so the gadgetology of the LS 600 ;) WOW ! :shades:

    Rocky
  • nippononlynippononly SF Bay AreaPosts: 12,687
    "V-12 performance with V-8 fuel economy"? Heavy weight is probably OK in a car like this, but it sure would have been nice if they could have lightened it by half a ton and achieved the performance and fuel economy increases without the hybrid powertrain, eh?

    We have yet to see how true these claims by Toyota really are. They made similar claims for the GS450H, and it seems it isn't much faster than the GS430 gas, nor does it do much better than that model in fuel economy. These are only short-term tests so far though - I would like to see one of those 12-month tests where they average fuel economy over a large period of time/number of miles.

    2013 Civic SI, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (stick)

  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,845
    nor does it do much better than that model in fuel economy.

    I don't think Lexus and economy have anything in common. That includes all the Lexus hybrids. If you spend $50k to $100k for a vehicle, cost of gas is of little importance.

    PS
    I think Lexus is trying to break into the High end Luxury car market without having to build an engine that is competitive.
This discussion has been closed.