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Civic Hybrid vx Civic LX - How many miles before I break even?

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Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,786
    "And just because the engine is in motion at speeds above 42 MPH, does not mean it is actually using any fuel. "

    John, are you referring to the ICE? If it is not using fuel, but is turning, that would mean it is dragging down MPG, right? Otherwise how can an ICE be in motion without consuming fuel?
  • ny1911ny1911 Posts: 11
    If it is turning but not using gas, then it is braking the vehicle. How severe that is depends on the compression and friction of the engine. But this is nothing new. In my old '87 VW, when I took my foot off of the accelerator, the fuel would cut off. I still consider such an engine to be "running" though

    In order for the vehicle to stay moving without the engine using fuel, it must either be coasting or be driven by the electric motor...which would be an inefficient design. With the Prius, if the engine is not running (or being started,) it should not be spinning.
  • davhandavhan Posts: 21
    Interesting and quite accurate figures. But for one moment consider what will happen when (not if) gas goes up.
    I live in Australia so lets take a look at it from an Australian point of view.

    1/ A standard Civic is about AU$4,500 cheaper than the Hybrid version.
    2/ Petrol(gas) is now AU$6.00 per gallon and is expected to reach AU$9.00 by the end of 2006!

    So lets base it on 35mpg for the 1.8l Civic and 50mpg for the Hybrid. (incidently I own a 2006 Civic Hybrid and I regularly get over 50mpg).

    Based on these figures 1,429 gallons would cost AU$8,574

    Whereas 1,000 gallons would cost AU$6,000.

    Therefore it will take about 2 years at current fuel prices in Australia.

    At $9.00 per gallon it will take one and a bit years!

    Baton down the hatches America, your love affair with gas guzzlers is about to come to a screaching halt!!! :sick:
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    JOHN
    said "And just because the engine is in motion at speeds above 42 MPH, does not mean it is actually using any fuel."

    JOHN you understanding or misunderstanding about cars escpecially anything to do with engineering: gear, elvctrical, hydralics, barkes, trasnmission, engine, etc.

    Maybe you are considered by some a Prius expert, but you continue to amaze me with this latest statement that a gasoline engine can run without using any fuel. Wouldn't this be perpertual motion. Patent and market this and you will be a a gazzion billionaire and make even Gates look like a pauper.

    LOL,

    MidCow
  • melsinctmelsinct Posts: 11
    Back to the original topic, I have crunched all of the numbers and realize it won’t take me long to break even on buying the hybrid. I am in Connecticut, where hybrid vehicles are exempt from state sales tax (6%). That, in combination with the 2006 federal tax credit, means I will be paying roughly the same price for the Civic EX I was originally considering as I would for the Civic hybrid. For me it is a no brainer. I also drive 35 miles each way to and from work, and since I am starting out roughly even, I will save about $4,000 over 5 years of driving the hybrid.
  • roundtriproundtrip Posts: 105
    I hear ya! Wish I had the courage, extra cash, and ability to convince my spouse to buy the hybrid instead of the Civic LX/EX (whatever we get the best deal on) automatic. I drive 1400 + miles/month (mostly on hwy.) However, I don't know if I'm smart enough to do the math on my savings. :confuse: In addition, I'm one of those drivers who would have to relearn how to drive.(And according to one of the posts, I should probably change my habits anyway. That speeding ticket last month ate $151.00 of my savings.)
    Thanks for doing more than your fair share for the environment. :shades:
  • kenlwkenlw Posts: 190
    Actually (I do cost analysis on a daily basis) the original post's logic was pretty good. The later spiel about comparing mirrors and 4w disk was a bit bizarre....

    Anyway, the biggest flaw in hybrids is the life of the batteries. Not only does the warranty drop at 100k, the real world life expectancy isn't much more than that. So if you get luck and beat the expectancy by 50% (really long odds, btw) and get 150k from them, you've simply got to pay many, many $1000s to replace them at that point which basically fries the payback schedule.

    If you don't, the residual value (resale related) will be virtually nil. Altho I usually avoid any resale factors by driving them 'til the wheels fall off... this one is a bit large to ignore.

    For the most part, the cost justification must be based on a 100k life (or perhaps 150k if you feel lucky) or include the hefty maintenance costs. I think that all the other maintenance costs (water pump, belts, etc) are pretty much a wash between the 2 vehicles.

    Buy a hybrid because you want to, and I will never argue with you. But get into justifying it $$-wise, and I might challenge it a bit.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,786
    "Anyway, the biggest flaw in hybrids is the life of the batteries. Not only does the warranty drop at 100k, the real world life expectancy isn't much more than that."

    In CARB states, the hybrid system (including batteries) is warranted for 10 years / 150K miles. Other states: 8 years / 120K.
  • kenlwkenlw Posts: 190
    ..realize that it is "which ever comes first". But good point. That wasn't the case when we did the analysis several years ago. Technology marches on.

    But realize the cost of that waranty is built into the price you pay upfront and is very difficult to determine. Now that hybrids are slower selling and production has increased, some discounts are available which should sweeten the pot, tilting some of the financial factors back in their direction.
  • I had a discussion with one of my wife's co workers yesterday regarding how long it would take to recoup the price difference between a new Civic Hybrid versus a Civic LX. Here's what I came up with:

    How long it takes to make up the price difference on a Hybrid
    The non-hybrid Civic is rated at 30 City/ 40 Highway.
    The non-hybrid Civic is now rated at 25 City/ 36 Highway.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorCompareSideBySide.jsp?column=1&id=23502-

    The Hybrid is rated at 50 both city and highway.
    The hybrid Civic is now rated at 40 City/ 45 Highway.

    http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/calculatorSelectEngine.jsp?year=2007&make=Honda&m- odel=Civic%20Hybrid

    So we’ll take the non-hybrid at an average of 35mpg and the Hybrid at 50mpg.

    Actually the EPA sets the non-hybrid at an average of 29mpg and the Hybrid at 42mpg.

    The non-hybrid Civic model that the Hybrid most closely competes with is the LX model. The MSRP on the Hybrid is $22,400 and it is typically selling for $2,000 over MSRP, but there is also a tax credit for 2006 on Hybrid vehicles so we’ll call it a wash and say the Hybrid sells at MSRP.

    The non-hybrid Civic model that the Hybrid most closely competes with is the LX model. The MSRP on the Hybrid is $22,400 and it is typically selling for $1,000 under MSRP, and there is also a $1050 tax credit for 2008 on Hybrid vehicles so we’ll say the Hybrid sells at $20,400.

    The LX model with automatic has an MSRP of $17,869 or $4,531 less than the Hybrid. Dealers are typically more willing to deal on the LX than they are on the Hybrid, but we’ll leave that out of this equation. So we’re starting with a $4,531 deficit for buying the Hybrid (again, not figuring in the extra finance charges on that money if one were financing the purchase).

    The LX model with automatic has an MSRP of $17,760 or $2640 less than the Hybrid. Dealers are typically more willing to deal on the LX than they are on the Hybrid, but we’ll leave that out of this equation. So we’re starting with a $2640 deficit for buying the Hybrid (again, not figuring in the extra finance charges on that money if one were financing the purchase).

    So how long does it take to recoup our more than $2640 deficit? Read on…..

    If gas costs $2.50 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:


    NOT BE SEEN IN OUR LIFETIME AGAIN 

    If gas costs $3.00 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:

    At 50,000 miles the non-hybrid has used 1724 gallons of gas, which cost $5172 while the Hybrid has used 1190 gallons of gas, which cost $3570. The Hybrid has recovered $1602 at this point.

    At 50,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $1602
  • So how long does it take to recoup our more than $2640 deficit? Read on…..

    If gas costs $2.50 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:


    NOT BE SEEN IN OUR LIFETIME AGAIN 

    If gas costs $3.00 a gallon here’s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:

    At 50,000 miles the non-hybrid has used 1724 gallons of gas, which cost $5172 while the Hybrid has used 1190 gallons of gas, which cost $3570. The Hybrid has recovered $1602 at this point.

    At 50,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $1602
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<BREAK EVEN

    At 100,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $3204

    At 150,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $4806

    At 200,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $6408

    At 250,000 miles, the Hybrid recovers $8010

    If gas costs $3.50 a gallon here&#146;s how much the Hybrid recovers at a given mileage:

    At 50,000 miles the non-hybrid has used 1724 gallons of gas, which cost $6034 while the Hybrid has used 1190 gallons of gas, which cost $4165. The Hybrid has recovered $1,869 at this point.

    At 50,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $1869
    <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<BREAK EVEN
    At 100,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $3738

    At 150,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $5607

    At 200,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $7476

    At 250,000 miles, the Hybrid has recovered $9345

    So at $3.50 a gallon, we&#146;d have to drive about LESS THAN 80,000 miles to break even
  • And some of you are saying "the battery pack costs a lot of money and it will negate the cost of the fuel savings.
    Well, can the battery pack last 200,000 miles?

    According to clean green car and the Honda site: http://www.cleangreencar.co.nz/page/faq-civic
    www.hondacars.com

    The battery was designed to last 10 years of normal driving? The honda civic hybrid battery also has an 8 year 80K mile warrantee. So that is about 15K per year according to their "lease" program. So after 150K miles you will have to replace the battery pack. Cost about 3000 us dollars (price could fall as more battery packs are replaced)

    So one must also ask the lost of fuel mileage "as the battery ages" due to the battery pack losing its efficiency. These figures I can not find, yet.

    So, using the above figures, at 250K miles the hybrid as recovered 9345 dollars. minus 3000 for the battery pack (if yo do the work yourself) and minus the cost of replacing the brake regenerators at about 100 dollars(estimate only per wheel: Lets use 345 dollars for the sake of even numbers)

    We are still ahead 6000 dollars at 250K miles. Looks like I will be shopping for a Civic Hybrid soon, unless they come out with a diesel civic.
    That is a whole different ball park. It gets really interesting if one makes their own biodiesel like a certain friend of mine does for his diesel trucks. Yep, very different ballpark indeed.
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