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Honda Civic vs Mazda3

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  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Well, the Corolla is not on topic here.

    Let's get back to the Mazda3 vs. the Civic, please.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Posts: 626
    "Ok. Write back next year when you have the Mazdaspeed 3, then we'll have something to talk about. "

    No need to wait until next year - car was officially intoduced yesterday

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/AutoshowArticles/articleId=109468

    "As on the Mazdaspeed 6, the Mazdaspeed 3's turbo 2.3-liter uses direct injection and has a 9.5:1 compression ratio. However, Mazda is giving an "over 250" horsepower estimate for this 3 compared to 274 on the 6, due to different exhaust routing and emissions equipment. Torque should hold steady around 280 at 3,000 rpm. "

    So now we all know it will smoke the Civic Si
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    So now we all know it will smoke the Civic Si

    I also read that the car will come with a fire extinguisher to put out the flames after it smokes the Si, and others for that matter... :P :D
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Yes and the fire entiguisher is thrown in for free after you pay the additional $6,000= $8,000 over the Si.

    With that price you are getting close to S2000 territory and the S2000 will still smoke the Mazdaspeed3 :P

    Seriously, the Mazdaspeed3 sounds like an awesome car ;) It would be neat to run it against a Caliber SRT4.

    cruis'n in my little 237 Hp 2.2L 4 cyclinder with the top down :shades: ,

    MidCow
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Yes and the fire entiguisher is thrown in for free after you pay the additional $6,000= $8,000 over the Si.

    At the Honda dealership in my town, they are selling a 2006 Civic Si for $20,540. It seems as if the Mazdaspeed3 will mot likley not go over $25K. They have stated it will be "very affordable".

    With that price you are getting close to S2000 territory and the S2000 will still smoke the Mazdaspeed3

    The S2000 is over $30k. That's more then $5000 away. Also, Mazda has reported "horsepower will be over 250" with 0-60 in "under 6 seconds". I would not say the S2000 will "smoke" the MS3.

    Yes, the Si will be more affordable. The Mazdaspeed3 is just more of a car then the Si.
  • lucidlucid Posts: 1
    Again,people are comparing NA engines with turbo charged engines.It has always been a problem with Honda comparisons.Maybe Honda should turbo charge the S2000,oh! no! it can't do that,people would cry foul because the S2000 may have 50 -80 more HP than it's competitors.As for this "comparison" I mean really,160 HP from a 2.3ltr?Are those figures enough to get anyone excited?It just shows the superioty of the Honda engines,Mazda needs a 2.3 ltr TURBOCHARGED engine to get a performance edge,because ,just like many other manufacturers ,Mazda cannot build powerful NA engines,it's just too hard aww :cry:
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Mazda cannot build powerful NA engines,it's just too hard aww

    Where did you read, or hear that Mazda "connot build a powerful NA engine?" Do you work for Mazda? Are you a auto insider? What evidence do you have to base this on? Just curious. Do you think it is a possibility Mazda just wanted to smoke everyone by building a turbocharged engine? If you haven't noticed, turbocharging is on a major comeback! Even Acura (Honda) is using a similar engine in the RDX!!! BTW, Mazda has a MZR 2.3 NA that puts out 300hp, built in junction with Cosworth.
    Also, they do have a 1.3L engine that puts out 238!
    BTW, I would not cry if Honda built a turbocharged S2000, but then, the price would probably be so high , no one would buy it! Maybe people cannot justify paying almost $40K for a Honda. Slap an Acura label on it, and it would have better luck.

    I mean really,160 HP from a 2.3ltr?Are those figures enough to get anyone excited?
    The Mazda3 is considered by many to be the "hottest compact in America". Also, read the reviews on that vehicle. I wonder if that classifies as "enough to get anyone excited"? :P
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Seriously, the Mazdaspeed3 sounds like an awesome car It would be neat to run it against a Caliber SRT4.

    In all seriousness, you are right. But, the MS3 will probably be compared to the GTI as well, which just recently was compared to the Si. So, you can see how the MS3 may be compared to the Si.
    Another reason it may be compared against the Si is because a lot of Honda people has been saying "well ,the Civic comes in the Si, and that spanks the Mazda3 s" So, Mazda people are going to respond by saying "well, we have the Mazdaspeed3, which will spank your Si" Make sense?
    This is why the auto industry is so much fun :shades:
  • slate1slate1 Posts: 84
    I'm not trying to start anything here... just posting my thoughts after test driving both of them.

    The Civic is a great car. The interior is very well thought out, displays are unusual and very nice. The seats are comfortable and the back seat is plenty comfortable for the average adult.

    I drove the EX coupe with an automatic first and found the car to be fine to drive but nothing spectacular. I was especially un-impressed with it's ability to get up to passing speed and just felt that it was generally under-powered.

    I switched over to the manual transmission and the driving experience was much improved. The 1.8L engine though has that typical four cylinder whine to it and the car is obviously geared to favor MPG over performance.

    I came away feeling the Civic would make a great commuter car - but just isn't that fun to drive in my opinion.

    The Mazda3i was up next. The interior is a bit more traditional but every bit as well appointed as the Civic's and my wife and I both found the seats to be more comfortable.

    Driving the 3i with the 2.0L engine and manual transmission was just fun. It was quick, responsive, and very nimble - just felt like it was begging to go faster. Albeit at the expense of a little fuel economy over the Civic.

    One concern though is the side-impact safety rating on the 3i. Side curtain airbags are standard on the Civic and are only available as an option on the Mazda3.

    After returning to the Mazda dealership - I decided to take a look at a 3s with the larger 2.3L engine. WOW - the interior has very nice gauges - giving it a much nicer look than the 3i. Driving the 3s was everything driving the 3i was - just more.

    I ended up with a Mazda3s GT - comes standard with the side curtain airbags, leather, navigation, etc. and it didn't cost me much more (about $1,500) than the EX with navigation. The fact that the Civic is a first-year design and the Mazda3 in its third year played into my decision as well.

    In my experience, the Mazda3 is just a much more fun car to drive.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Posts: 626
    Again,people are comparing NA engines with turbo charged engines.It has always been a problem with Honda comparisons.Maybe Honda should turbo charge the S2000,oh! no! it can't do that,people would cry foul because the S2000 may have 50 -80 more HP than it's competitors.As for this "comparison" I mean really,160 HP from a 2.3ltr?Are those figures enough to get anyone excited?It just shows the superioty of the Honda engines,Mazda needs a 2.3 ltr TURBOCHARGED engine to get a performance edge,because ,just like many other manufacturers ,Mazda cannot build powerful NA engines,it's just too hard aww "

    I don't get your whole rant. Is turbocharging cheating? Is a NA engine that is much more underpowered than it's turboed competitor somehow more noble in your mind?

    Turbocharging is one method to get more power out of a car. Every manufatcurer can do it if they choose. And today's turbo's don't cause reliability issues like they may have in the past.

    People are comparing the 2 cars because they will always be competitors.

    And, ya know, that's the title of this thread
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I, a Honda guy, do agree with your main point, mrblonde. Any method should be "fair", after all, are there any rules against it?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Acura is finally useing a turbo charged engine in it 2007 RDX. a 2.3L turbo with 240 hp. Sounds very similar to the 2.3L turbo that Mazda uses in the MS6 (274hp), MS3 (250+hp), and CX-7 (244hp).
    Sounds like Honda/Acura is finally jumping on the band waggon...or quite possibly, woke up and smelled the coffee ;)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Sounds like Honda/Acura is finally jumping on the band waggon...or quite possibly, woke up and smelled the coffee

    Well, I don't know about that. Honda hasn't been losing out in sales due to lack of power anywhere. In fact, their VTEC system got power out of 4-cylinder engines that many other makers couldn't get without Variable Valve Timing. Maybe the last 115hp Civics were a little out of date, but they still sold like hotcakes.

    Now, a turbo 245 hp TSX would do wonders for TSX sales, I think (but would probably steal some from the TL).
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Honda hasn't been losing out in sales due to lack of power anywhere. In fact, their VTEC system got power out of 4-cylinder engines that many other makers couldn't get without Variable Valve Timing. Maybe the last 115hp Civics were a little out of date, but they still sold like hotcakes.


    I never said their sales were lacking, they are quite the opposite. Also, the Civic will always sell like hotcakes.

    In regards to VTEC, that is Honda's Variable Valve Timing. The way you stated it was other makes can get the same power with their Variable Valve Timing. I think you mistyped, and meant to say Honda's VTEC gets more power then other makes VV-T, which would be mainly true.

    Now, a turbo 245 hp TSX would do wonders for TSX sales, I think (but would probably steal some from the TL).

    That would be neat to see, but cost may go over $30K, too close to the TL, and it would infringe on TL sales.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, let me clarify what I said so unclearly (sorry). I meant that Honda usually doesn't jump on a bandwagon, but build their own bandwagon instead (like they did with VTEC in the 1990s).

    I too agree that the TL would be endangered with such a powerful TSX, but if the TL moves up to, say, 275 hp and gets the SH-AWD (rumored to happen, not sure though), the TSX could slide in at $31,495 or so (competitive with the IS-250 Lexus), while the AWD TL cost maybe $35,495 (comparble to the ES and IS 350 models).

    I dunno, just thinking out loud. Most probably see it as rambling.

    Sorry, I know I've led us off-topic, so I'm done with my rambles. For now, anyways! ;)
  • An economy comparison should have the {economy} aspect? Am I wrong? Civic gets 31/40 mpg with 140HP NEW SAE ratings. The Mazda gets 25/30 mpg with 160HP on the less accurate and more for giving non-SAE rating. At todays gas prices and with driver averaging 15,000 miles a year.
    And there is a new player coming, SI SEDAN a little 2litre 197HP.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Posts: 626
    An economy comparison should have the {economy} aspect? Am I wrong? Civic gets 31/40 mpg with 140HP NEW SAE ratings. The Mazda gets 25/30 mpg with 160HP on the less accurate and more for giving non-SAE rating. At todays gas prices and with driver averaging 15,000 miles a year.
    And there is a new player coming, SI SEDAN a little 2litre 197HP. "

    We heard all this 2 months ago. Everyone knows that the civic gets better mileage, but thanks for the tip.

    SAE? All cars have been re-rated this year, haven't they? Besides, the 3 beat the Civic in every measurable test that involved motion, so what does teh SAE ratings matter, anyway

    You should also know the 250+ HP, 280 TQ Mazdaspeed3 will be out this fall.
  • slate1slate1 Posts: 84
    If MPG is a main concern, then, YES, the civic is the obvious choice. If you love DRIVING cars - there's no question, the Mazda3 is the clear choice and by a long shot.

    Here's the thing - everyone looks at HP and it's a relatively meaningless number unless you're looking to race the car. You'll never top out your horsepower in typical day to day driving.

    What you should really be looking at is the TORQUE. That's what pushes you back in the seat off the line from the stoplight and gets you around that 18-wheeler on the interstate.

    The Civic has 140HP but only 128lb-ft of torque; Civic Si bumps the horsepower to 197HP but the torque only goes to 139lb-ft. Honda doesn't worry about he fact that the Si only has 11 more lb-ft of torque over the Civic EX because they know most people are looking at that extra 57HP and thinking they're getting something usable out of it. Again, I'm talking typical day to day driving here - not racing.

    The Mazda3s, on the other hand, has 160HP and 150lb-ft of torque. I'll take the extra 21lb-ft of torque over the Civic EX and extra 11lb-ft of torque over the Si any damned day! If you love to drive cars and you drive them all back to back - you will too.
  • z71billz71bill Posts: 2,000
    You are on the right track - with HP VS torque.

    Actually HP and torque are both worthless stats UNLESS YOU ALSO POST THE RPM that is needed to reach said levels.

    The reason it is generally accepted that torque is more important is because auto engines produce their peak torque at lower RPM levels - compared to peak HP which is normally at a higher RPM. Since MOST of the time we run our engines somewhere between 750 and 4,000 RPM's it is the engines power in this range that is important (in "normal driving"). BTW the 750 - 4,000 is just my guess - 750 is close to idle speed and 4,000 is about (or maybe even a little above) where most people with a manual tranny would shift gears (on a normal drive not a race).

    The other thing that always gets lost in the HP vs torque discussion is that you can - given ANY HP value and engine speed (RPM) calculate the amount of torque produced -

    Or since it is just a formula - if you give the torque and RPM it is easy to calculate the HP

    Kind of like converting temperature from "F" to "C" - but for some reason you never hear anyone say that "F" is more important than "C" -

    So if you say the Civic SI produces 197 HP at 7,800 RPM you could also say the Civic SI produces 132.65 FT pounds of torque at 7,800 RPM.

    HP = (RPM * torque)/5252

    Torque = (HP * 5252) / RPM

    So - the HP and torque of every engine will = each other when the engine is running 5252 RPM's.

    Now this is the time when someone always posts something about a FLAT curve being more important than PEAK value - bla bla bla.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Mazdaspeed3 will be out this fall.

    where did you get that information?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Slate1:

    It is obvious you have never really driven or owned a Honda VTEC engine!
    My current Honda VTEC only has 237 HP and 162 ft-lbs of torque, but the shifting and gear ratios are oh so sweet!

    I would choose the Si over the Mazda3 anyday! Besides being much better styled, more powerful, better looking , it gets the same gas mileage and is more reliable!

    A mere test drive of a VTEC doesn't do it justice. Once you have one and get to know it, VTEC is a wonderful technology!

    Double sixes,

    MidCow
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Posts: 626
    where did you get that information? "

    It's a 2007 model. This fall is all the speculation I have read.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Posts: 626
    HP = (RPM * torque)/5252

    Torque = (HP * 5252) / RPM

    So - the HP and torque of every engine will = each other when the engine is running 5252 RPM's. "

    I've seen this formula before, and what I've always had a hard time grasping is this:

    If HP and TQ are indeed tied to each other, how do you get some engines that are, for example, 200 HP & 240 TQ, and others that are 200 HP & 160 TQ.

    I guess it means that they are tied only at that RPM number (5252)
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Posts: 626
    I would choose the Si over the Mazda3 anyday! Besides being much better styled, more powerful, better looking , it gets the same gas mileage and is more reliable! "

    Let's not even get into the fact that it's a coupe, which eliminates the Si for a lot of people.

    We all know that styling is subjective, but I will say that styling USUALLY goes to the 3 in comparisons. Although the Si is ten time better than the bland regular civic sedan.

    Reliability is very good for the 3, while the new civic should do well based on it's history, although new model data isn't really out there
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    The torque curves ( with Horsepower as the independent variable) are different!

    The two examples you cite are running at different engine RPMs.

    200Hp and 240 TQ= 4,377 RPM( probably a low tech V6)

    200Hp and 160 TQ = 6,565 RPM ( probably a 4 Cyl VTEC)

    It is all a matter of substituting and solving ;)

    Double sixes, top down ,

    MidCow
  • slate1slate1 Posts: 84
    so I know Honda engines from first experience. My only point was that everyone focuses on HP when, in my experience, torque is where it's really at.

    My main point of comparison was in driving the Civic EX -vs- the Mazda3s and I don't know how ANYONE could come away from driving these two cars saying the Civic was the better driving car.

    As for one being better styled, better looking, etc. - that's all subjective. Reliability... hmmmm, seems about dead even according to Consumer Reports and given the number of problem with first year vehicles I'm willing to bet the 06 M3 ends up proving more reliable than the 06 Civic.
  • mrblonde49mrblonde49 Posts: 626
    where did you get that information? "

    This is right on Edmunds (Geneva Auto Show)

    2007 Mazdaspeed 3

    What is it?
    2007 Mazdaspeed 3

    What's special about it?
    Few cars have more tuning potential than the well-sorted Mazda 3, which many consider the most desirable economy car in the U.S. market. Mazda made us wait a good long time for the high-performance Mazdaspeed 3 version, but the payoff is that it has a lot more power than we expected.

    That's because Mazda engineers found a way to stuff the Mazdaspeed 6's turbocharged 2.3-liter inline four under the hood of this five-door hatchback. We had doubted the operation would be possible, given that it was already a squeeze to get this intercooled turbo four into the midsize 6, which had to be fitted with a domed hood.

    "We changed the 3's dash to accommodate the new engine," Program Manager Tatsuo Maeda explained. "There's a slight indentation in the new dash panel to accommodate it. Also, the hood is raised 20mm."

    As on the Mazdaspeed 6, the Mazdaspeed 3's turbo 2.3-liter uses direct injection and has a 9.5:1 compression ratio. However, Mazda is giving an "over 250" horsepower estimate for this 3 compared to 274 on the 6, due to different exhaust routing and emissions equipment. Torque should hold steady around 280 at 3,000 rpm.

    In order to save weight and keep the car affordable, Mazda decided not to feed all this power through an all-wheel-drive system. So the six-speed manual gearbox sends the juice to the front wheels, just like on a normal 3. Mazda has released a 6.1-second 0-to-60-mph estimate, though Mazda reps told us the car would do it in "under 6." Top speed is electronically limited to 155 mph.

    A standard limited-slip differential should tighten the Mazdaspeed 3's line when exiting turns, and Mazda says torque steer won't be a problem, thanks to precise control over power delivery through the first four gears.

    Of course, there are plenty of chassis upgrades to get excited about as well. Engineers widened the front track eight-tenths of an inch to accommodate the Mazdaspeed 3's slightly wider 215/45R18 tires. All Mazda 3s get mild suspension revisions for 2007 to improve rigidity, but the Mazdaspeed hatch also benefits from higher spring and damper rates as well as larger-diameter stabilizer bars. The result is 60-percent less body roll, says Mazda.

    Braking hardware is upgraded as well. The 12.6-inch front rotors are almost an inch larger than the ones on the regular 3. The rear discs are about the same size, but are now ventilated rather than solid. For safety's sake, ABS, emergency brake assist and stability control are standard.

    A revised front grille that doubles as an air intake for the intercooler immediately distinguishes the Mazdaspeed hatch from other 3s, and in back, the tailpipe is 3.7 inches across. Red stitching accents the black cockpit, and more aggressive sport seats promise to hold you snug through the corners.

    Mazda says the Mazdaspeed 3 will hit the market in the fall of 2006. Company officials offered no details on pricing, but we expect it to come in under $25,000.

    What's Edmunds' take?
    The '07 Dodge Caliber SRT-4 looked pretty scary when it debuted in Chicago with 300 hp. But with about 280 lb-ft of torque in the Mazdaspeed 3, it now looks like a much tighter battle. If Mazda's hot hatch weighs in lighter than the portly Caliber, it will likely prevail through the turns. — Erin Riches
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    It's a 2007 model. This fall is all the speculation I have read.

    ahhh hah! speculation! This car won't be on the street's until at the earliest, this time next year.
    I work for a Mazda dealer, and we have been given no such info on the Mazdaspeed3, because there is nothing official, it's just a prototype. Also, our final order for vehicles due here in the fall is with in the next week or two.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Mazda says the Mazdaspeed 3 will hit the market in the fall of 2006.

    I will believe it when my Mazda rep tells me so.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    hmmmm, seems about dead even according to Consumer Reports and given the number of problem with first year vehicles I'm willing to bet the 06 M3 ends up proving more reliable than the 06 Civic.

    I would happen to agree with you as well. I have owned a 97 Accord EX with VTEC, and I loved it. There is no questioning that Honda has had wonderful reliability. But, I have noticed many quirks with the new Civic. I am also a Mazda dealer, and one of my best friends in a Honda tech right down the street from our Mazda store. He has told me about an accelerator recall on the 06 Civic, as well as many customers bringing back their Civic for little problems that are "unHonda like". The extent of the "quirks" or "problems", I did not get into. I think it's a possibility that the perfect little red dot next to the Civic in Consumers might change for next year.
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