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Chevy Silverado and GMC Sierra vs Dodge Ram

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  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    I said "working with" not "working on" their trucks.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    is how well the truck executes the job that the maker designed it for. My Ram does NOT have the second motions that was displayed at Silver Creek. It's funny how all of the other trucks had some sort of suspension or shock differentiation, whereas the Ford was aplomb. Hardly.

    I'm not going to be a Ford buyer, you're not going to be a Chevy or Dodge buyer. That is understood and I respect that. But don't trounce every other truck in the market because it doesn't behave like a Ford.

    Honest to Goodness, my Ram rides comfortably, tows 9500 pounds without a sweat(ok maybe gas), has gadgets galore, and has the style and attitude to dance with the best of them. I couldn't fathom the thought of buying anything else. Love what you buy.
  • That is the truth. There are some good trucks out there built to meet your everyday needs and all are pretty fair products. GM has the top of the list in my mind due to rock hard durability and longevity with little to no repair bill, Dodge would probably have to be next. I don't like the fact dodge named the 5.7L the "Hemi" but it is a solid yet thirsty engine. The Titan is next due to class blowout specifications and performance. There are others that are good to and I beleive you should buy what you like and stick with it. ;)
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    You're making the claim of supposed Ford superiority based on the numbers game, you know, by measuring the length of bolts or oil filters or radiators. Unfortunately things like this do not dictate either fitness-of-purpose or supremacy. In addition, the items you mentioned were self-serving. There are mechanical parts on the Chevy or Dodge that are bigger or longer. But in the evaluation of trucks it is not size that matters, but performance.

    The use of a larger oil filter does not mean a lot. What matters is capacity and efficiency. Can you prove that the oil filter on a Ford is either just because its bigger?

    In the case of the larger radiator it may actually point to a negative aspect. All manufacturers design engine/power systems to operate within a design temperature range under all of the envisioned conditions the vehicle might encounter. The fact that a radiator is larger on one vehicle may indicate that the engine runs hotter and must transfer more heat per gallon of flow than another.

    I think you're making the assumption that Ford has provided a larger operating margin in this case, but there is no empirical evidence to support that. In addition engineers need to ensure that an engine comes up to temperature as quickly as possible, not only to meet emissions but also to increase combustion efficiency. Larger radiators on cars and trucks cannot do that as well and usually indicate a higher generation of BTU loss. That is a design negative, not a positive,

    As far as frame strength goes, the previous Ford and Dodge half-ton truck platforms were both good. The Dodge had a higher torsional bending limit and the F-series a higher lateral bending limit. Older GMs were pretty weak in both areas, but newer versions of all three are extremely stiffer than before.

    In the absence of giving us the measured test results the claim that the Ford frame is superior is lacking evidence in the numbers that seem to be the theme of your "Ford is superior" claim.

    I think you'll find that the Chevy, Dodge, and Ford are very close. A difference of 50 pounds in torsional or lateral bending resistance is totally insignificant, nor can it yield any practical advantage.

    By the way, the Dodge received frame revision from '05 to '06 and is reportedly the most rigid truck platform in the light duty pick up market.

    As a former manager of a large national fleet of vehicles...including LD trucks..I think Ford made a pretty good truck -- up until the '05 model. Since introduction the "new" F-series as been a maintenance and repair disappointment, especially in light of the fact that previous years were actually pretty good

    Dusty
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    that in this months Motor Trend issue, with the 2006 Truck of the Year awards, the Dodge Ram lost to the Ridgeline because of the "value" quotent. They applauded it for having best-in-class balance of ride and handling without being cantankerous. They loved the power output of the HEMI and the overall construction of the truck, writing: " the handling is quite good (dare I say fun?) in the tight road course". "The ride, even with the huge 20" wheels and low-profile Goodyears was compliant. making the reworked cabin- now with more insulation, thicker glass, triple door seals, and a new IP with an available nav system- and even quieter and enjoyable space to occupy." BUT hears the gotcha: "For a full-size, it doesn't get much better that this"Flipped over a couple of pages, and low and behold there's the Lincoln Mark LT( a direct copy of the F-150 with a chrome Lincoln grille). Here's just a snippet of their quibbles:

    " Among this field of five-, six- and eight-cylinder competitors, the Mark LT had the slowest 0-60 times of the bunch, although midrange power and passing abilities are fine. It's tuned for smooth highway driving. Unfortunately, the Mark LT hasd trouble keeping composed, evidencing axle-hop and front-end wonder on rougher pavement and rutted dirt-road streches."

    So, I'd be careful to say that the general truck buyer thinks Ford is superior to every other truck.
  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    A couple of things...First, if you read the article again, I believe MT says the Ram Megacab did not win TOTY pretty much only due to the fact that they cost over 50 grand. I'll need to read it again to be sure. Second, MT's "Of the Year" awards are not real awards...they are marketing campaigns. They are bought so manufacturers can use the MT logo in their ad campaings for their new vehicles. To be eligible for a "Of the Year" award the vehicles must be either all new or completely redesigned. Therefore, there is no repeat winner possibility. Think about it, how can a vehicle be so great that it is the Car or Truck of the Year and then is never heard from again--at least until it is all redesigned? The F-150 won in 2004, the Tacoma won last year and the RL won this year--but it will not be able to repeat next year. Third, I believe the Lincoln was not in the running because it is nothing more than a rebadged F-150 going against all new designs. I would not vote for it either, and I drive a 2005 F-150. Finally, do not let the results of this "test" influence the way MT feels about the F-150. First of all, last fall in the MT New Car Buyer's Guide for 2006, MT called the F-150 the "class of the full size truck segment." Also, in the same issue of MT that you reference (the TOTY issue) in the back--around page 140 or so--they do a wrap up of their long term test of the 2004 F-150 and they heap praises upon the F-150 hand over fist. Read it before thinking MT looks down on the F-150.
  • GM takes the TOTY next year. What was the compititon against the RL. The Lincoln LT,and??? If to be nominated for TOTY the truck has to be new or substansually redesighned. Thats well, about it aint it. The RL takes it this year, on to the real trucks next year. GM.

    MT mite look down on the F-150, but not that bed :P :P
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    stands that the Ram is the better truck, according to these guys. The LT can compete because the MT guys says that it can also be a new nameplate, hence Mark LT.

    I read that they "liked" the F-150. I wouldn't call a truck that the gearshift has to be taped in order to change gears "durable". This is not praise. A few months back, the praised the long-term 2500 Ram, calling it the best workhorse in the class. So to say the least, the Ford is not superior or best at everything. You might want to re-read Dusty's posting of the Ram v. Ford.

    P.S. I was not talking about the MegaCab Ram, just the 1500. At last check tho, a fully equipped F-350 runs near 60K when laden with POWERJOKE. So the FACTS are still valid.
  • What powerplant was it in that Ram 2500? Was it the Hemi or the Cummins? I'll be willing to bet that the 2500 HD equipped with the Duramax desiel and Allison T1000 tranny can out pull or out power any other deseil out there. MT mite have mixed in other tests such as acceleration, off roading and of the sort when they called the Ram the work horse of the class. Chevys strong points are power and fuel economy. The Ram may give it a run elsewere though.

    POWERJOKE( thats good ) :)
  • The videos are produced by Ford with people that Ford is paying. The Ford is a fine product, but so are the rest. Most of the items that are brought up in the video are made to appear that Ford has the advantage, but in reality.... Example: Bed Bolts. The bolts that are used by Ford are the same exact diameter as those used by Dodge. Ford's bolts, being longer, actually makes them weaker and more suscetable to stretching or failure. As far as the frame goes, my '98 1500 as been used as a delivery truck carrying loads that exceed the "rated capacity" by well over 1,000#. No frame damage or axel damage in 120K. Ford is pushing the frame thing because they were known for frame flexing for quite a while. Mimd you, I didn't say that they bent, but by flexing, they had more squeeks and rattles. My knowledge of the video is a little better than most as I was a trained Ford salesman.

    Whats important is not to find a "best truck", but a best truck for you and your needs.
  • Thanks for the engineering observations in your original post and the info here on the MT TOY. As I recall, MT have had some real turkeys over the year "win" (?) this honor. I think that the Iszuzu Trooper, a Dodge Raider, and other worthies have won it over the year. As you point out it is nothing but eyewash.

    With regard to Dodge vs. Chevy half tons, I think we can all agree that the Dodge has a better frame, less car like suspension, lower resale, and fewer options. Do you want to work or play?

    With regard to Dodge vs. Ford, I am impressed by the items you list in your original post, but have a couple of thoughts. Clearly, the F150 interior is a full generation ahead of Dodge. Proof? Lets make a supposed unfair comparison. Rather than compare the SLT vs XLT , compare the supposedly more upscale Dodge Laramie with the very common XLT. The Ford's center stack, ergonomics, etc. are far preferable. Both manufacturer's though force you to pay about 3K for a optional package (e.g., the SLT or XLT package) if you want power windows and locks. You can't get PWDLs separately as an option. I don't know about you, but I can't easily reach over to the passenger door and wind down the window if I want directions. In 2006, power door locks are almost a required personal safety feature. I resent that they are not offered as a stand alone option. I happen to like the Ford exterior styling better because I don't identify with class 8 truck drivers and don't need to imagine that I am driving a Peterbilt. I think that the Ford's deep bed is a good thing if you are going to haul anything.

    But what is a deal killer for me is Ford's persistent problem on the F150 with drive line vibrations. They apparently can't be cured. Gee, who wants to spend 30K or so on a new pickup with a gorgeous interior, great bed, and then have a vibration problem? While the F250 isn't plagued by this, I don't need nor want a 3/4 ton truck.

    Net/Net: sign me up for a Dodge 1500 in shadow grey.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The specs:

    The Cummins has 325hp and 610lb-ft of torque. The Duramax has 300hp and 620lb-ft of torque. They are virtually about the same, power wise. However, the Cummins has a long track record for durability and longevity, whereas the Duramax has had aplenty of problems, most notable turbine failure, which destroy's the engine. But they both are whole-heartedly more durable and powerful than the 525lb-ft POWERJOKE.

    BTW, the Dodge that MT was referring to had a HEMI, and that's why it was named "workhorse of the class" because it's more powerful than both of the 8.1L big-block Chevy and the 6.8L V-10 Ford.
  • Clearly you know your specs, but fill us in. The hemi has more hp and torque than both an 8.1 or a V10? Wow.

    Incidentally, I have the idea that you could pick up a used Ford F250 with the V10 real cheap because of the perceived gas mileage and that it isn't a diesel. This might be a steal: decent power without the hassles and expense of a diesel. (To me it makes absolutly no sense to pop an extra 5K for something with a mixed reliability and maintenance track record and maybe no payback. If you want to drive a diesel, call Roadway.)
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The HEMI has more horsepower than the GM 8.1 and the 6.8L Ford V-10, but they are both more torquey than the HEMI, the big-block by 70lb-ft. But the HEMI shines on the top-end, whereas the torque monsters have enough low-end grunt to remove tree stumps(so does the HEMI, but with a little more effort.)

    So to some it up, the 8.1L and Ford 6.8L would be ideal for heavy towing because of their low-end torque, which moves the weight more easily. But for a light duty bound mover, the HEMI would be the best choice as you'd save a ton on your gas bill and it is more at home just cruising whereas the others are built to behave better laden with weight.

    As far as diesels go, the Big Three have made available some of the most modern and everyday usable diesels around. Thanks to something called common-rail fuel delivery, there is no more of that clank-clank-clank-clank that was associated with diesels of yester-year. I praise Cummins, Duramax(Isuzu), and Powerstroke(International) for the quietness(for a diesel). And with this latest technology infused within the engines comes longer service intervals and much improved longevity. On my previous '98 2500 CTD 4X4, I got 312,000 miles before the first major overhaul, way pass the manufacturer's estimate. And even then it wasn't anything wrong with motor, it was that the turbo finally pooped out after millions of rotations. At idle on my new MegaCab, before I put the Banks exhaust upgrade on it among other goodies, the truck was just a little more audible than a standard gasoline motor. And with the upcoming Tier 2 emissions regulations of '08, these engines are sure to be as clean and quiet as gas motors.
  • The Hemi may have more power in specs, but both the Ford V10 and the big block Chevy have more displacement. Take the Hemi to the rolling hills of the peidmont, compare the power of the smaller displacement engine with the power of the bigger displacement engine and se how it compares. The Hemi is a solid engine, plenty of power, but plenty of appatite. When you are trailering the smaller engine has to strain harder to get equal power to the bigger engine, thereby revving higher and burning more fuel, so I dont think I totally agree with the work horse of the class Heavy Duty wise. The Hemi may be for the 1/2 ton segment but when compared to the bigger engines Displacement is what counts.
  • Try towing 6000lbs back across the state with a Cummins or an Powerjoke 286 miles at 55mph averaging 16.3mpg. Our Chevy 2500 HD equpped with the Duramax and Allison T1000 pulled a uhaul trailer and my unroadworthy 79 Chevy of my granddads back to our place and had power to spare and deseil in the tank. There may be something better out there but that there is a high standard to reach.

    Duramax best deseil there is. ;)
  • Duramax best deseil (sic) there is??

    OK, how many Duramax engines are used in severe duty industrial or marine applications? Go to any job site today and half the construction equipment is running B Series Cummins. Go to ME and 25% of the lobster boats are running B Series. None of the above use Duramax. None.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    I did state that the HEMI is not the choice in 3/4 ton trucks for heavy towing. Medium towing at best. HOWEVER, when your talking diesels, CUMMINS all the way hands down. With the latest '06 frame revisions, the 3500 CTD 4X4 has the best tow rating in it's class, 18,500 pounds. Compared to Duramax 15,700(despite 625lb-ft torque) and the Powerjoke 16,500. The frame is key to towing. Hp and torque are good, but with a flexible frame and bed, it's not usable.

    Hate to break it to you, but the Isuzu-built Duramax is not the best out there. Durability, longevity, and power are the main reasons people buy diesels. The Duramax has failed miserably on all counts, especially durability. Turbine failure at 40,000 miles is not only good for a gas motor, but down right horrific for a TD.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    is the fact that the "dated" Ram just won the 4X4 Truck magazine truck of the year award. Guess all is not lost for the "class leader" now, is it?

    They too said that the full-size truck arena has some catching up to do as the '06 Ram is now back on top like it was in '02 with the new redesign. Just more facts to be stated
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    Dodge/Cummins:
    325 hp/610 lb-ft - manual and automatic

    Chevy-GMC/Duramax:
    360 hp/650 lb-ft - automatic
    300 hp/520 lb-ft - manual

    Ford/Powerstroke
    325 hp/570 lb-ft - manual and automatic

    If you like to shift for yourself, nothing comes close to the Dodge. For the automatics, they're all pretty close since truck weight and dynamics tend to neutralize the small power differences.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    When did the opinion of 4x4 Truck magazine become facts?
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    The same way that cheezy Ford infomercial became "facts" The only thing with the mag is it's not biased, unlike the very hyped and pathetic Ford video.

    Funny thing is, the Ford has never won any "of the year awards" in a pure truck mag.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    kcram, thanks for the updated power output for the '06's
  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    What does it matter who produced the videos? Had George Lucas produced them, the facts would have stayed the same. Ford uses the heaviest frame. Ford is the only truck with standard 4 wheel antilock vented disc brakes. Ford has the most stable ride as it is the only truck with outboard mounted rear shocks. The list goes on and on. Who made the videos is irrelevant. The facts are there to see no matter who points them out to you.
  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/f150/awards/

    I know you won't believe these awards, either. However, you can go here and see that the F-150 is the most awarded truck on the market.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Posts: 1,717
    Most stable ride? Heaviest frame? Outboard shocks? WHO CARES! The fact that the Ford has the heaviest frame contributes to the fact the Ford is really overweight, hence the back of the pack acceleration. I beg to argue about the most stable ride. I'm not the only person to have a 4WD-equipped Ram that rides really well for a truck. Stability, plushness(for a solid axle laden pick-up), quietness is all part of the package. Wish I as well as aplenty of other people could say the same for the 4WD-equipped Fords, especially the teeth-chatter-inducing FX4. By comparison, the FX4 is a railcar in light of the Off-Road packaged Ram. I should know because I've driven both. Can you say the same? Probably not.

    Vented disc brakes? It does no good to have them when you have one of the longest stopping distances in the class.

    To be fair, put a Ford F-150 Supercrew Lariat 4WD up against Nissan Titan Crew LE 4X4 for a tow and accel run. I say these two because they are the closest in powertrain you can get in this class.

    Even tho the Nissan has only 5hp more than the Triton 5.4, the Titan blows it away by an extraordinary margin: 7 sec. flat vs 9 seconds to 60 for the Ford. They both tow about the same weight, but the weight of the bloated Ford makes it work MUCH harder than Nissan, which tows it weight with confidence.
  • I know that the Hemi is an admirable engine, but let's not get carried away without actually looking at the numbers. The Hemi is advertised as 345 HP and 375 lb-ft of torque. The Ford 6.8 puts out 362 HP and 457 lb-ft of torque. Exactly where does the hemi beat the Ford? Ford has 17 more HP and a whopping 82 lb-ft of torque. The Hemi is a strong engine for its size, but not even remotely close to the V10. As far as the GM 8.1, well, I really don't care what it makes. I wouldn't own one.
  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    Trucks are not made for acceleration, they are made for hauling. Also, if you have to call the heavier and better construction of the F-150 "bloated" to feel better about yourself, then go right ahead.
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