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Lincoln MKS

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  • GM also does well in its foreign markets. Especially in South America, China , and Asia in general. GM is trying to re-establish Cadillac as a world class mark. If they do, that would only add to the marks panache in its domestic market. Ford doesn't have a prestige mark in any of its markets. Lincoln isn't even considered by many to be a prestige make in the U.S. because it doesn't have any vehicles that are able to be marketed worldwide. Lincoln could be that brand again. If Ford were to make Lincoln into into a world class brand that has broad appeal to those who aren't too concerned about the difference of 5 to 10 thousand dollars between the price of vehicles ,Ford would re-establish Lincoln as a true prestige brand with broad appeal both in its domestic market as well as in other markets. It may actually increase sales. The Lincoln brand is still known in foreign markets,especially Europe. Right now those that purchase higher end vehicles want to be re- assured that the vehicle that they are buying has the same panache as the coworker who parks his Mercedes next to him. Sometimes being cheaper is considered to be cheap. There are people who are still purchasing high end vehicles. At my new BMW dealership people are purchasing their cars in full with cash or are putting a third down. The people who are purchasing these vehicle tell me that they would be willing to go domestic if the domestics were in the same class as the imports. All are younger people with the median age of about 50. They consider Lincoln to be an old persons car. Right now, Lincoln has nothing to offer the younger market segment. Lincoln will probably never have a vehicle in that segment. Mulally said, when being interviewed on CNBC, that his only concern is seeing that the blue oval brand survives. It would be nice if the Ford family were willing to put some skin in the game to save the company. But why should they. S&P informed investors that even with the bailout there is at least a 90 % probability that all three makers would eventually go into chapter 11 at some time in the future. I hope Lincoln could be sold to a speciality maker that has the engineering expertise to produce an American Mercedes or BMW
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    But Ford HAD European prestige brands already in Aston Martin and Jaguar - there was no reason to put Lincoln in the mix. Now that's all changed so the door is open, but it takes time.

    And if Ford doesn't survive, Lincoln doesn't survive. That's why Mulally has focused on mainstream Ford vehicles first. Ford needs to be profitable in the U.S. before it can afford to develop an all new world class RWD platform for Lincoln.

    Ford has the management team in place to make that happen and as long as the economy doesn't get worse Ford will be fine.

    Why not look at the positives? The MKS has the highest quality interior, the most technological features including AWD and the most power (340 hp in a few months) of any Lincoln in the last 30 years. Seems like a huge step in the right direction to me.
  • The car is not a bad car. But it tries to be everything to everybody. It wants to be a TC replacement and also an LS replacement. Give it a firmer ride than a TC but not much firmer as to discourage the TC buyers from buying and hope that the ride and handling is just right as to encourage LS owners to purchase it. If that isn't good enough to get LS owners to buy, give it awd as an option with a 340 hp engine option . But it still won't handle as an LS. I don't think Lincoln is going to offer a sport package for the 340hp option. I think that the car was designed by committee. There were those who wanted a traditional TC type vehicle and those who wanted an LS replacement. This vehicle is the compromise. Ford needs a car person to run its r&d dept. Someone who could take charge and push projects through red tape. It doesn't need committees.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    I think you're missing the point. There is only so much you can do with a transverse engine FWD platform, even with AWD. It's never going to handle like a LS no matter who engineers it. The ride is already much firmer than a TC which has turned off some current TC owners. It's as sporty as possible.

    It's quite simple - to build the car you want requires a new, sophisticated, expensive RWD platform that simply doesn't exist right now. Lincoln has plans to build it but first they have to get through this economic crisis. What more can they possibly do RIGHT NOW?
  • Just three words: Audi, Acura, and Hyundi. Audi uses a fwd and awd platform and yet will out handle and out perform the MKS. I know about the price of these cars. But yet Acura makes the TL in standard fwd and also with a sophisticated awd system as an option. Both versions will out handle the MKS and is in the same price range. Hyundi managed to produce a sophisticated premium rwd vehicle which is also in the same price category as the MKS. Which is another vehicle that can out perform the MKS. It's pretty bad when a relatively new companies as Hyundi and Acura are ahead of the curve while Ford ,even in decent conditions, was behind. They decided to stay behind while using the profits from SUVs and trucks to produce new SUVs and trucks while forgeting about their car lines. The sad part is is that they thought they could catch up to these rivals in terms of new platform tech with the MKS.
  • datagendatagen Posts: 107
    I think there may be some confusion here. Yes I know what Ford intended but there was a balancing act going on here. I believe the MKS is in a class by itself. The size of it alone tells you clearly that even though it was meant to be a direct competitor, it is turning into a indirect one. It was designed to provide something different from the high-end main steam where performance amongst the other competitors is very close and looks not much difference as well. I am not sure is there a thing called workmanship when over 70% of the work done on vehicle today in the manufacturing world is performed by computers and robots.

    Yet as long as man is the source there will always be imperfections. Like beauty this is all in the eyes of the beholder. For example some say the pickup on the MKS is lacking. Others say due to the transmission design it is fine, while others are waiting on the ecoboost looking for speed. My old man use to tell me that the latest is not necessary the greatest, and what may seemed to be out dated, may still serve its purpose just fine. With all the latest computer languages that are used today, many banks still use the old language of Cobol due to its stability and low support cost. So the incorporation of the old and new in this vehicle was a balancing act indeed.

    I have never seen the perfect car no matter what the cost. Like everything else it is a percentage decision. There are some things I do not like about the MKS, but my percentage of likes was higher than my dislikes, hence I purchased the vehicle. As we nick pick from out own worlds, lets take a moment to appreciate the overall intent of the engineers and designers for their effort to create a product towards the satisfaction of all no matter how impossible it would have been from jump street.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    Audi uses a longitudinal engine design, not transverse which yields slightly better weight distribution. And the TL is much smaller than the MKS - the RL would be a better comparison.

    What does Hyundai have with the Genesis that Ford didn't? A new RWD platform.

    We all agree that Ford should have developed a world class RWD platform years ago, but they didn't. In the meantime, the MKS is a very good vehicle, although not perfect.
  • What makes it a very good vehicle? Audi still uses front drive on some of its vehicles. If they found a way to mount the engine longitunally on these vehicles why couldn't Ford? Why doesn't Lincoln have the same sophisticated awd system as Acura or for that matter Audi? And It doesn't matter if the MKS is a larger car. It's not that hard to modify a system for other use. Why not have a full time awd option? The system that is presently used is based on Volvo's. When the Volvo's system was road tested against the Audi's awd system on a European Auto show ,the Audi's system clearly out performed the Volvo's system in the Nurbering test course.
  • What does this car do that is better than others in its price range? What will make me purchase this vehicle over a Audi or DTS. The DTS has less torque steer. Has a engine with more horse power and the DTS is slightly more expensive than this car and still has higher sales. Is available with all of the equipment except for Nsync that is touted as standard on the MKS.
  • Many of these vehicles are more expensive than the MKS and are smaller since the size of the car seems to matter when making excuses for Ford's latest wannabe whenever someone criticizes the car by comparing it to others in its price range. Ford needs to sell about 35 thousand of these turkeys to break even on it with the heavy discounting that is taking place. Right now most dealers are discounting about 4500 dollars and some over 5000 dollars to get them off the lot.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    You don't have a clue how many Ford needs to sell to break even (and neither do I).

    Right now there is NO cash rebate on the MKS - only employee pricing plus 0% for 36 months with normal interest for 48 months and longer. That's a little over $1600 in incentives from Ford not counting 0% which most people can't take anyway. It doesn't matter to Ford how much the dealer discounts the vehicle off MSRP.

    And if those aren't the right vehicles to compare, please post the ones that should be used and their November sales.
  • The Ford family isn't stupid. Would you invest in a losing prop? Let the taxpayers do it. If Ford survives thats frosting on the cake. If it liquidates, only the taxpayers and employees suffer. Right now Ford and GM are just about penney stocks.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    If they found a way to mount the engine longitunally on these vehicles why couldn't Ford?

    Because it requires a totally different front clip design and different transmission/transaxle setup. The D3 platform was already setup for AWD and could easily be modified to handle 340 hp. If they were going to the trouble of changing the engine orientation they might as well just make a new RWD platform.

    Why doesn't Lincoln have the same sophisticated awd system as Acura or for that matter Audi? And It doesn't matter if the MKS is a larger car. It's not that hard to modify a system for other use. Why not have a full time awd option?

    Ford's AWD system is not the same as the Volvo system. Ford's system can transfer up to 100% of the torque to the rear wheels by computer based on throttle and steering inputs BEFORE any slip occurs. This is a big advantage over the Volvo Haldex system especially in performance driving. I'm not saying it's better than Audi's system - quattro is pretty sophisticated - but it's no slouch either.

    And the MKS does have a full time AWD system - it operates all the time. If you're talking about being able to lock the torque split front and rear then that's 4WD and you don't need that on a luxury sedan.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    What does this car do that is better than others in its price range? What will make me purchase this vehicle over a Audi or DTS. The DTS has less torque steer. Has a engine with more horse power and the DTS is slightly more expensive than this car and still has higher sales. Is available with all of the equipment except for Nsync that is touted as standard on the MKS.

    Does the DTS have 340 hp? AWD? Keyless start? Securicode keyless entry? Manumatic shifting? The DTS has less than 300 hp and gets 15/23. The Ecoboost MKS will have at least 340 hp with AWD and get better FE than the NA 3.7L model which is already best in class at 17/24. And the MKS has to handle better.

    And you do know that a lot of the DTS sales are fleet - right?
  • vic10vic10 Posts: 188
    Are we sure we're talking apples vs apples? 340 hp standard? AWD standard? Keyless start standard? Etc. Don't believe so. With those items, you might be comparing the MKS to the DTS Performance. Granted, not yet 340hp. But coming from a 300C with 345hp, I can tell you my new DTS Performance Northstar revs quicker and is more responsive above 60 mph than the Hemi was, even lacking the 50 hp and the 5-speed tranny. And as for handling, I don't believe Ford has anything to match the magnetic ride control that's in the DTS Performance. One BIG negative for the MKS in my opinion is the Microsoft system. Being an owner of a computer with Microsoft's Vista operating system I most definitely would NOT want that level of unreliability in a car doing 70mph down the highway.

    I find it hard to believe that many people who are trying to decide between the Lincoln and the Caddy are going to be comparing individual features. A lot is image. And a lot is style. I've always considered the Lincoln a luxury car. But I've always wanted a Cadillac. The MKS looks great from the front, ho-hum from the back, and like about 5 other (cheaper) cars from the side. The interior looks to be the size of a STS (and there's a car you probably wouldn't want to put the MKS up against feature for feature) which is to say confining. And though at first glance the MKS interior looks great, on closer examination it doesn't look quite as lux, though it is an interesting contrast: 2009 exterior, 1970 interior. I think the car was a nice first effort. But personally I'm a bit disappointed in the overall package.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    I didn't see the reference to "standard on the MKS" - my mistake.

    As for Sync - it's not Vista and it doesn't control the car. I hate Microsoft as much as you do, but if there was no sticker and nobody told you then you wouldn't know it was MS. It works great outside of some early USB hardware problems and phone incompatibilities (neither of which was the software's fault).
  • You do if trying to produce a variant to be a sport sedan or performance sedan based on a fwd platform. AWD or fulltime all wheel drive is just a matter of terms. Right now the system doesn't offer any type of enhancements that would actually push the car through twisting curbs. It's is more designed to keep the car from slipping because of road conditions. And the awd system is biased towards the front wheels hence the need for an 4wd option.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    Ford's AWD system will send power to the rear BEFORE slip occurs in order to provide better performance and reduce the possibility of slip occuring. It uses steering angle and throttle inputs - e.g. if you're going into a curve and accelerating it will send power to the rear. This does help handling even in dry conditions. Ford's system can electronically send 100%of the power to the rear wheels. This is NOT just an anti-slip system.
  • It still uses a Haldex torque conveter. Audi also uses a Haldex on its transverse mounted engine vehicles for the awd option on these models. But on its premiere sedans with its permanent awd system option it it uses a Torsen differential. The torque bias is 40/ 60 with 40 % of the torque to the front wheels and 60% to the rear. Also, these models have an electronic differential lock to break the engine as well as to limit individual wheel slip. Its not possible to use a Torsen differential on a transverse mounted engine. Lincoln doesn't offer this type of performance option because of its basic Volvo platform design.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,623
    I understand that it's not the same as Audi's quattro system. But it does transfer torque before slip is detected to enhance performance which is more than the standard Volvo Haldex system did. And it can electronically transfer 100% of the torque when needed.

    The AWD A6 is a lot more expensive than an AWD MKS, even though it's smaller.

    Again - Ford is getting the most out of the platform they had. They've already updated the front clip to handle more torque, redone the rear suspension which also made it to the flex and updated the AWD system. It's just not cost effective to do anything else when they need a GRWD platform anyway.
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