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Lincoln MKS

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  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Ford killed it. They were going to bring out the Meta One and discontinue the Ford Freestyle. Instead, they decided to re-do the front of the 2008 Freestyle and kill the Meta. This probably occurred after they decided not to offer third row seating in the Edge. In any event, they will regret giving Mercury such short shrift. They can't even sell 50,000 Milans per year, and in that category, they should be moving more like 100,000. As long as Mercury remains an afterthought of this screwed up company, it will not be any more than that.

    Actually, I think the MKS should have been a Mercury...one that could compete with Chrysler and Buick. Lincoln still needs the Continental.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "Actually, I think the MKS should have been a Mercury..."

    I've come to the conclusion that Mercury is toast. They've set it up that way and Mulally I think will pull the plug. There's nothing new in the pipe for Mercury as far as we know. Nothing special. Just the me-tooness of the Montego, Milan and Mariner. So easy to just erase the Mercury on the side and make em Ford trim levels. Lincoln, meanwhile, is getting lots (from the perspective of Fomoco) of new product and lets face it - cheapened product at that. One could say that Lincoln is moving down market to sit just above where Mercury used to be when it had a personality of it's own other than Jill Wagner.
  • Say what you want, but don't diss Jill Wagner.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "don't diss Jill Wagner."

    Wasn't wouldn't nope not me - I won't diss that gal. She don't ness'ly make me wanna buy some wheels, but takin a ride does come to mind.
  • albookalbook Posts: 1,282
    You guys know ford might have to kill someone off. After they get rid of one of their many British brands, Mercury is definitely next. If the new MKS and other future lincolns don't leave the floor, It's not Lincoln going down the tube-yet.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    What a stupid thing to get rid of their British brands now. A few years ago, it would have made great sense to pull the plug on Jaguar. Not buying Land Rover in the first place would also have been wise. But these brands are now tied into FoMoCo structure all across the board. And now Jaguar has two new sedans (that are not boring retro) in the pipeline, Land Rover actually has a good line-up, and Aston Martin is a stellar brand in sales and image.

    Selling any of them is not going to raise enough money to matter, but it will further degrade Ford's deservedly bad image. I'll say it again...a bunch of overpaid losers got control of this company when it was riding high. Ran it all the way down, and now like Bush with Iraq, has no clue about a path out of the mess they created.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    Gosh, gregg, why did you have to ruin an absolutely brilliant post, with your politics??

    I could not agree with you more than I do on selling PAG. Now's not the time - so much has been invested in fixing, modernizing, and developing these three brands, to sell them now would give the buyer 3 heritage brands poised for greatness with just a little more tweaking and support. The brands are only lacking decent marketing now, to be successful, IMO.

    I could not disagree with you more on our President - but this is NOT the place to debate that. So, here I though you were a genius, until...... ;)
  • pnewbypnewby Posts: 277
    Still no word from Ant sinc 10/20/6. Guess the way forward got another of the "good guys"? :cry:
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Thank you, and I don't need to debate the obvious (even Bush is now saying "it's bad" there). ;)

    Besides, you make a lot of assumptions based on a comment that a Republican, Democrat or independent could have as easily dropped. It is so true that politics and religion (both insane topics) are best avoided in polite company.

    Back to the topic...I guess we'll see how dumb the Ford team really still is. Selling PAG now goes in the dumb column for sure.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    Back to the topic...
    and let's try to stay there! Thanks.

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  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I must be the only Republican who EVER attended UWM, you think? I remember Madison as the cradle of liberalism, so you don't surprise me - nevertheless, you make some excellent points in the car arena - selling PAG will not only take out the European footprint of Ford's luxury line, the only one they have left - but also eliminate the cross-pollenation synergy that is provided with the foreign engineering. Ford is riding mostly on Mazda platforms and Volvo platforms now - not altogether a bad thing. The LS, a great Lincoln rode on the Jag platform, which was part of its demise due to price points etc. Think of what will be left of Ford if they do? Good trucks - and a bunch of Mazdas with F names..... Seems to me, it may stop some bleeding, which must be done, but perhaps a better way to stop bleeding would be to market the crap out of the new Rovers & Jags. Aston Martin actually makes money already, so no need to sell them. One more thing - I hear people all the time denigrating Jaguars by saying, "it's just a Ford". There is no justice, I know, but I have never heard anybody say about a Bentley, that it's just a VW. And it's as much a VW as Jag is a Ford. If we could get a few Rappers to drive a Jag, maybe???
  • albookalbook Posts: 1,282
    Come on guys- you know two things you never discuss in public are politics and religion! But back on point- If FOrd needs the money, then somethings gotta give. and they really don't want to give up their unadopted child brand-Mercury- or the usefull Volvo?mazda. I sugest Jaguar-It's doing nothing right now. And rappers do have these things in there videos (trust me-I know) but look how their doing! as long as it ain't Aston- what great seller. And it has such potential. Look at VW and Bently. Ors that Bimmer?
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    It's VW and Bentley - but I still think if they restyled the XJ8, and left it the same underneath, it would revive Jaguar. They need a great looking car, that's a sedanola. Jag is a good car, it's a technologically advanced car, it performs well, not class leading, but well, and the R version is fast, very fast, but it's just not forward looking at all. It's too "staid", even for the british.....
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Cheney attended UW too. :) BTW, UWM stands for UW-Milwaukee.

    The plan is to re-skin the current XJ, and the proposed style will certainly make it stand out. The S Type becomes the XF next year, and it is also a great leap forward stylistically (is that a word?).
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    UW - that's right, I was careless, my bad.

    Got any pictures, gregg? Dying to see them..... Wondering why they're dropping the S-type moniker in favor of XF honestly......the S-type was a hit, and a great car at the same time. Do you know when these cars will hit the dirt? Because I firmly believe new product that's good will revive the brand, unless the engineering expense is too much. Those aluminum cars have to be expensive to make up front.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    They're trying to be more consistent (XJ, XK, XF) and I think they're trying to lose the "less expensive car based on a Ford" stigmatism that the S-type has (although I don't believe it's deserved).
  • So, in other words, the same committee of yes-men who answer to spineless dopes who are guided by focus groups that came up with the absurd MksMkzMkx mess is going to screw up Jaguar's names too?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    Jag has been using X names since 1948 when the XK120 debuted.
  • But aren't you the guy who thought Zephyr was a great name because Lincoln used it 65+ years ago?

    Just like with Lincoln, it will prove foolish to give all the cars the same name, separated only by a single letter.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    I don't recall saying that, but Jag has had the XJ and XK for many years without any issues so I don't know why XF would be a big problem. I also thought S type was too easily confused with Acura's Type S.

    I think the problem with Lincoln is having 2 letters the same at the beginning (MK) instead of just one. It makes them harder to distinguish IMO.

    I still think that Lincoln's alphabet soup will be replaced with names like Continental within the next 2 years.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I don't recall saying that, but Jag has had the XJ and XK for many years without any issues so I don't know why XF would be a big problem.

    Seriously - it's only a problem for me, because it doesn't feel right - XL, XM, XN not bad, but XF - just sounds funky, and makes me think of X-Ford. NOT what they need right now. However, I could be way off (again)....

    I still think that Lincoln's alphabet soup will be replaced with names like Continental within the next 2 years.

    I can't TELL you how much I hope that is true!
  • "XF" is utterly preposterous if they intend to distance themselves from the Ford brand. That's just pathetic.

    What Ford's groupthink specialists missed is that the names they tried to copy, have the differentiating character at the BEGINNING of the name (i.e E350, 530, RX330 ) Not at the end of the name: MKSMKZMKX

    The naming disaster of the Zephyr, I mean MKZ (To be pronounced "Mark-Z" ...oh never mind you should call it "em kay zee") summarizes the rudderless, flailing plight of the whole company
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    My sources tell me that Alan has made some drastic differences already with Ford, and Lincoln's resurrection is a priority with him. But it will take time, even with a keg of dynamite, to blow up this sea of confusion. I'll bet the dealers are just having a fit right now. Morale has to be as low as it was in 65, when Mercury had no product - Lincoln had only one, the Continental, and it was getting old fast......

    The Lincoln Division needs a new boss, don'tchathink? I'd fire this guys butt with a lot of noise, and put a car guy in there fast, if I were Mulally. Clearly, the direction they are going is wrong.... NOBODY here, and we used to be loyal Lincoln enthusiasts - I've been driving them for 15 years, until now, likes what they have become.....
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    First, they should have at least stuck with pronouncing the MK as "Mark". THat at least would have made some historical sense. Emm Kay is stooopid. It boggles my mind to think that people who come up with this cr_p are making probably 6 figures.

    Next, whattya mean 65 when Mercury had no product? That was a great year for Mercury. The '65 full size Merc had much more in common with the Continental than it did with the Ford that year. And the '65 Comet was a big hit and is a hot car in the collector's market to this day.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    whattya mean 65 when Mercury had no product? That was a great year for Mercury. The '65 full size Merc had much more in common with the Continental than it did with the Ford that year. And the '65 Comet was a big hit and is a hot car in the collector's market to this day.

    Well - ok, honestly? I was going by what Iacocca said in his book, and I forgot, most of that book was fiction...
    He said he saved Lincoln and Mercury, who were dead on their butt, with the 67 Cougar and the 69 Mark III. Undisputed runaway sellers, to be sure. That's what I was referring to. I do recall 65 Mercurys, and they were pretty cool, though I liked the 67's better actually. Back then, Mercury tried to look like a smaller Lincoln, instead of today, when Mercury resembles a slightly chromier Ford. And I've bought a lot of those lately....sigh....
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Oh yeah, Lee Iacocca the man who saved Ford AND Chrysler, just ask him. Remember those pathetic 'K' cars he was peddling? My gosh, what junk.
    The best thing Io did for Chrysler besides get a free taxpayer loan was to buy AMC to get Jeep. Then the lying SOB did within a year exactly what he promised NOT to do which was close the oldest car plant in America, the AMC plant in Kenosha, Wisconsin. Lots of folks out in the street on that deal. AMC gone. Yeah, most dont miss em. I had 3 AMC vehicles and while they were not the pinnacle of automotive design, they were as good as anything the big 3 had at the time (who would seriously take a Vega or Pinto over a Gremlin knowing what we know now?) and I drove one to 140,000 with only a timing chain replaced. Nice little V8 Hornet. Lee Io can kiss my LS.

    The 65 Mercs were awesome. I had both a 64 and a 65 convert and they were like night and day. The 64 was a Ford with diff tail lights and grille. The '65 was shaped like and was as big as the Continental and had bigger engines and upscale interior compared to the Ford. The '67s were nice too. If I ever get a few extra bucks for a toy car, this time I'd like to find a nice '67 Park Lane convt or if I have a few more bucks, a 1960. 67-69 Cougar would also be on the short list. I guess I'm still a Fomoco guy at heart.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    The 65 Mercs were awesome. I had both a 64 and a 65 convert and they were like night and day.

    Ya see, those were the salad days for Ford, because Mercury had a real purpose, was marketed as "the man's car" at the time, then evolved into the 'sign of the cat' after the Cougar took off. Can you believe what they eventually made the Cougar into, that obese Torino/LTD II clone?? Whoever was responsible for reviving Mercury at the time, we need him back, and it's not Elena Ford.....

    I had an LTD II. It was a good car for the day, and held up lots better than some of GM's trash that had the Metric 200 transmissions in them. But it was no Cougar...
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I'm still a Fomoco guy at heart.

    It's hard to get that Ford Blue out of your blood, isn't it George? As ripped off as I am at Ford right now, I still feel some movement in my heart when I see and old Ford restored and running, or a new F-250 really working its butt off, and I still like that new Mustang, though its time for me has passed. I seriously considered a Thunderbird for a long time, but can't justify it. Sure admire them though...
  • albookalbook Posts: 1,282
    Well ford's in trouble now! As this has already been established. What happened to the company that built the super Taurus?
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    We know, in fact, those of us who are experts on the brand know it best. We see it in the lack of product, engineering and delivery. What happened to the company that changed the automotive world with the Taurus is, that Donald Peterson and Phil Caldwell retired, and Jacques Nasser took over, and spent all the cash they had on foreign brands and parts outlets all through Europe and rental car agencies (Hertz). Then, he systematically began to get rid of all the white male employees, engineers who know the company and Ford, and the Taurus, designers ditto, and replaced them with diversity - however, this new crowd of kids didn't have the experience they needed. Then the Explorer rollover thing happened. Then, to make matters worse, Bill Ford took over and began unraveling everything Nasser had done, even the good things like PAG, which Lincoln was in. The Lincoln LS was Nassers car, and his first ovation to change the Lincoln brand. It was a wonderful car, a good idea, and Bill killed it immediately.
    Bill damn near bankrupted his company. Don't know if Mulally can pull it out or not, but I'm betting on him. Just bought a ton of Ford stock and will ride it out with them. Strictly a financial gamble, nothing else. I think he'll do it - but I think Ford will be a completely different looking company when he's done too.
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