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Toyota Camry Hybrid

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  • gandyfiregandyfire Posts: 36
    That is one of the dealerships that told me late summer or September. Also, the young kid salesman (about 20) had no clue about the tax credit. I did manage to end up #3 on the list at a dealer a few miles southeast of there who assured me I would be able to take possession sometime in the third quarter, also at MSRP.

    Seems like the dealers that are charging a premium are in the bigger cities. One in Tampa had a LE4 marked up $2000!!
  • Ocala left me with a good feeling back on 2/17, otherwise I wouldn't have put my cash down.

    Salesman had just been to some kind of class on the TCH, and said then that it would be here in June. And he seemed the methodical and conservative type, so maybe that's worst case scenario. But I'm hoping for May, at this point don't care what color, but do want it loaded.

    And I'd like a set of SE rims on it.

    Can't wait!! ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    We will have our first TCH in our allocation at the end of this month.. for delivery in May.

    May is the correct timeframe for dealers normally selling hybrids. Surcharges are entirely possible in certain markets. It's definitely a local phenomenon.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Rather than cross-posting, you might look at post #3097 in the Diesel vs Hybrid Forum.

    The question was posed about the 'hybrid premium' on the new TCH.
  • So Spyder, my salesman said that his (and I assume any) dealership knows about 30 days before a vehicle arrives from Japan what the details are (i.e. color, options, etc.) from some kind of query report....

    So theoretically he should know something this month about impending TCHs? Now that would be a nice surprise....
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Theoretically yes. But it's controlled by the regional office, in your case SET in our case CAT. It's the regional office that assigns the vehicles and tries to fill any 'preferences' as best they can. Until it actually hits the inventory it's still up in the air at least in CAT.

    What he said is correct since the inventory and allocated vehicles are about 30 days out, maybe a little more.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Prius is overpriced in Canada. If Toyota Canada continue selling Prius in Canada there will have to be an adjustment. That adjustment may not be in price it may be in standard equipment.

    Yes the Prius is over-priced and the hybrid Camry is under-priced. There are very few Japanese or European cars with a Canadian MSRP premium over the US MSRP that is under 23 percent.

    The hybrid Camry is definitely compelling value in Canada independent of what the Canadian Prius price is.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Surcharges are entirely possible in certain markets. It's definitely a local phenomenon.

    So what you are saying is that money grubbing among local Toyota dealers is tolerated by Toyota USA? What does that say about Toyota USA?

    I know when VW introduced the Beetle in 1998 and there were long waiting lists their policy was NO SURCHARGES! And VW dealers and reps were accountable if they broke that policy. Is there no such accountability at Toyota USA??

    I have been on long waiting lists for every car I bought so far and I have never paid surcharges.( every model I buy tends to be hot seller). I guess that reflects my good taste in cars. ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    It's very clear. The auto makers intentionally have no control whatsoever over what happens at the local retail level. They are not retail sellers, they are auto manufacturers. A retailer can sell at a profit, at a loss or breakeven... it's of no concern to the manufacturer. They are separate businesses.

    In the recent past there have been sometimes huge ADM's on..
    -the new Corvette now there is a $25000 ADM on it;
    -Solstice, Sky
    -PT Cruiser in the Past
    -SSR ( foolish )
    -the new Mustangs
    -the Gen2 Prius' in SoCal

    It's only a way to balance out the supply and the demand. Often the ADM or addendum is specifically the way the dealer indicates that he doesn't want to sell the item.

    An example, a store will get one TCH a month ( likely scenario ) until full production kicks in later in the year. He knows now that people are asking about it and want to drive one. The first comes in and a buyer says, 'Great, I'll take it today' and drives it away. All the others come in a little later that day and ask 'Where's the TCH?' .. 'Gone..come back next month - but be first.'

    ADM's on new models often are just a way to keep a vehicle on the lot in the beginning to allow the greatest number of people to see it. Now if someone says 'Screw it I will pay $25000 over sticker, I just want it.' Oh well.

    Then there are other deeper legal/commercial issues to consider if the manufacturers got involved at the local level.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,886
    A vehicle with an ADM will never darken my driveway. If the dealer is worried about having a new model to show. He can use the term DEMO in place of ADM and not lose my business for life. Then, I have never paid MSRP for a vehicle.
  • How do I know who the top dealerships [sales volume] are in my area or region (Cincinnati Ohio)? I tried to search the web for sales volume but all I could find was top 12 Toyota dealerships in nation in 2004 (announced April 2005), none bordering or in Ohio. I hear a lot on this forum about SET and CAT but not Midwest.

    Went to two local dealerships this weekend and asked salesman directly but got vague indirect responses ("we sell a lot") from both of them. Neither is taking deposits, just names.

    MSRP was quoted at one. Both said they didn't think they could get what I wanted this year (loaded except no sunroof [need to accommodate very tall passenger]). I am not flexible on the sunroof because I need the extra 1.5 inches of headroom. This was discouraging.

    I thought if I went to a high-sales dealership, they would have a better chance of getting a bigger allocation and also requesting cars matching their pre-orders if those cars are on the region's TVO list or whatever you call it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I believe that nearly all the high volume stores are on the coasts..
    LA and SoCal, Bay area, Las Vegas, DC/NoVa/Md, Boston, Fla, Houston
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Posts: 1,207
    I know when VW introduced the Beetle in 1998 and there were long waiting lists their policy was NO SURCHARGES!

    Not only is it policy, in Canada it is the law. A dealer may not charge more than MSRP in Canada. Of course that doesn't prevent them charging $2000 for (compulsory) pinstriping, or driving it for 2km and then selling it used for $5000 over MSRP.
  • grandtotalgrandtotal Posts: 1,207
    I think the Camry Hybrid is slightly over priced too. Toyota probably took a look at the number of 2005 HAH on dealer lots (in Canada) and decided they had better not go any higher than they have.
  • otis1otis1 Posts: 142
    I just saw this show called motorweek yesterday and they were talking about the camry line. they said they got 38 mpg for mixed driving in the TCH. By comparison they got 26 for the v6 (22/31). while they don't mention it, I'm going to assume they didn't apply any hyper-mile or other "hybrid" techniques to their road tests. so my take on this is, if your driving style is such that you would get mid 20's in a v6 (pretty reasonable), then you should be able to get upper 30's in the TCH.

    all i can say is wow.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    This is exactly correct and it's perfectly in line with the other two HSD vehicles. Most Prius drivers will tell you that their 'combined' mpg is 48-50 which is just under the EPA 51 Hwy rating. Most HH owners using the best features will report FE values in the 26-28 which also is just under the EPA HWY rating of 28. It makes sense then that the TCH's combined value should be right around 36-38 or just under the reported HWY rating of 37 mpg.

    It's the same technology in all three and the same testing parameters.
  • otis1otis1 Posts: 142
    A dealer may not charge more than MSRP in Canada. Of course that doesn't prevent them charging $2000 for (compulsory) pinstriping, or driving it for 2km and then selling it used for $5000 over MSRP.

    There's a simple way to deal with this problem (regardless of what coutry or region you're in). If there's a surcharge that you think is unfair- DON'T BUY THE CAR. but consider this... if people are paying these prices, then you have to consider that maybe (for that particular time frame), the surcharge is reasonable.

    Imagine if EVERYBODY who wanted a TCH said, "I like the car, but I don't want to pay the extra, so I will not buy it at this price and at this time." I guarantee the price surcharge would magically disapear. But obviously there are those who disagree with that statement and WANT to bid up the price. (anyone try to buy an xbox360 last year?) During the prius used car frenzy a few years ago, do you think it would have been fair to the private party sellers to cap their selling cost to "national depreciation averages?"

    My opinion is that canadian law actually HURTS the consumer because the dealer finds a loophole and your stuck with some gaudy pinstriping or stuck buying a used car at new car prices.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    You are correct in that the market always speaks in the final analysis. The pricing will find it's correct level when buyers begin taking delivery and deciding/reporting on how the vehicle suits them.

    If it's a hot item the pricing will remain firm.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    they said they got 38 mpg for mixed driving in the TCH. By comparison they got 26 for the v6 (22/31).

    38 mpg combined is impressive. However, the Camry V6 model that featured in Edmunds' recent road test (comparison) yielded only 20.4 mpg... that is a 30% differential in fuel economy. More road tests are needed for a better conclusion.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    MT got 31MPG.

    AW got 38 MPG.

    R&T got 38MPG.

    TAC got 37 MPG.

    DrFill
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,886
    It would be nice to see a car sold that gets the advertised mileage. Not a one of your examples made the advertised mileage on the Toyota website. Are we supposed to be impressed with the TCH fuel economy?

    Hybrids have opened up a whole new era of false advertising that is protected by the Federal Government.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    It would be nice to see a car sold that gets the advertised mileage.

    May be once the revised EPA standards go in effect. They are expected to bring down the fuel economy ratings for non-hybrids as well by 10-20%

    Hybrids, or not, they get rated under a standard. It is a standards issue, not hybrid.
  • Dr Fill,
    What is TAC?
    That is Great mileage in a Camry.
    I get 28 mpg with the 2.3l engine in my Suzuki Aerio
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,886
    I think the hybrids just brought it out in the day light. The real issue is it will affect the CAFE ratings that all automakers are victims of. If the EPA does a realistic test on all cars, which is not likely, it will lower all the cars and will cost the automakers that do not have a fleet average of 27.2 MPG.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,130
    anniemfuse.....being from the area, I'd have to say Performance Toyota in Fairfield, OH is probably the biggest Toyota dealership in this area. I'm guessing, but I'd say Joseph Toyota, Beechmont Toyota and Kerry Toyota would round out the rest of the top dealers.

    Hope that helps.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    Hybrids helped emphasize the issue with EPA standards. If a hybrid rated 50 mpg gets 45 mpg, it looks like a much larger number than does getting 18 mpg out of 20 mpg, while both are 10% off their ratings.

    We could also look at (Edmunds' latest family sedan comparo) and see Accord V6 getting an observed 21.6 mpg while EPA estimates put it at 20/29 mpg. Camry V6 got an observed 20.4 mpg while EPA estimates are 22/31 mpg. So, technically, both cars should be doing better than they did. Of course, and I'm sure, testers typically push the cars a lot more, but then, I also assume they compensate with some stretches of highway driving.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    TAC = The Auto Channel, which published a review of the TCH, but it may've been reprinted from an AP source.

    Gagrice

    Are you talkin' to me?

    If final EPA numbers are 40/38, and the car scores 38 twice, I'd give them the benefit of the doubt.

    The Escape Hybrid did a great job in the R&T test, but being only FWD adds a small asterisk, as this saves 2-300 lbs., and compromises the rational behind buying an SUV for 30k in the first place. You can get the same functionality from a $14k Scion xB! And get similar performance and economy.

    DrFill
  • jtdpxjtdpx Posts: 19
    Dr. Fill, you stated in Post 599:

    "MT got 31MPG.
    AW got 38 MPG.
    R&T got 38MPG.
    TAC got 37 MPG."

    It should be noted that MT (Motor Trend) got 40 MPG doing 70 MPH. The 31 MPG (I believe it was actually 31.5) was pure city.

    TAC (The Auto Channel) was mostly highway, some city.

    R&T/AW: What combination of highway/city were they?

    Lastly, who is "AW?"
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    The response was appropriate for the question ;)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Gagprice,

    I agree with you kinda of. Take for example GMC, they overprice vechicles so much that the have to discount then 10 of thousands of dollars. For example if you didn't pay at least $10,000 under MSRP for your 2005 GMC Sierra 1500 then you in effect paid ADM to GM.

    In MSRP the S stands for suggested, It doesn't mean that is is always a good value proposition.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
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