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Toyota Camry Hybrid

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  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    I'm rather fond of the Generation 2 Prius' styling.
    To each his own.

    I prefer the 1st generation Prius. Prius II out ugly's the Aztek. Great powertrain, terrible styling.

    07 Camry is very nice IMO.
  • Less fuel usage = Less dependency on foreign oil period. It should not be about money and if you can't see that or can't afford it, buy something else.

    Read the latest news headlines today. Iran is back to enriching plutonium - and it is not to make nuclear energy like they say. They want the bomb and will not hesitate to use it. The UN Security council threatens to stop them with sanctions. They say,"OK go ahead and we will stop shipping you oil". Russia and Germany say,"whoa not so fast let's think about these sanctions". Maybe its ok if they enrich as long as we get our oil. What????? Ask Israel if they are ok with that after the Iranian leader said he wished they were all dead.

    Why are we really in Iraq using our soldiers like they are expendable inanimate objects. Because of WMDs - oops none of those were found. Because Hussein and Bin Laden were buddies - oops wrong on that one too - turns out they hated each other. Come on G.W. please tell us the truth. Could it be OIL??? ding ding ding

    We need to free ourselves from this and do it now. If just 25% of us drove hybrids we would be free. Think about it. It is NOT about the money. Sorry, but I am tired of hearing that.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    If just 25% of us drove hybrids we would be free.

    Not sure where you got your calculations. Even if 100% of us drove hybrids we would still need Middle Eastern oil. That is probably why we are in Iraq.

    Think about it. If we all drove a Prius and got 50 MPG that would not cut our usage in half. We import 3/4 of all the oil we use. The odds on 10% owning a hybrid in the next 10 years is slim. We don't like diesel and that can be home grown. Ethanol is a joke as far as saving oil or the planet. Hydrogen is the biggest joke and waste of tax dollars. You may as well get use to the status quo. It is not changing until the world oil supply gets very very low. Save your money and buy a non-hybrid Civic.

    PS
    You will be real lucky to get a 15% fuel savings with the Camry hybrid over the regular 4 cylinder model. It is PZEV rated so what will the premium buy you?
  • Not sure about your math. Your saying our usage would not be cut in half in we all drove Prius? Am I wrong in that statement means everyone is getting at least 25 MPG if getting 50 MPG won't save us half? I would be willing to bet - just based on the fact over half of the vehicles on the road are V8 trucks and sport utilities - that the average MPG is more like 20 MPG or less. Also given the fact that over half of the driving is city or city/highway driving which is the lower end a conventional gas engines range. Add to that the figures the EPA has come up with are inflated because the testing is skewed and not realistic. I am sure that if everyone drove a Prius we would not need foreign oil for our cars at least and would be a lot less dependant on it than we are. If one country say Iran decided not to supply with oil we could fulfill our needs elsewhere.

    However I am a realist. Will everyone buy a Hybrid - no. Will 50% - no etc... We are a society of consumers and the bulk of us do not think about the consequence of our consumption. "Why should I sacrifice when someone else will just use it" "I won't be here in a hundred years, why should I care" "I have to get that 3500 series dually with V10 and 5 MPG because Frank has one plus it is cool". I already feel sorry for our children's children. Maybe they will all be driving hybrids.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    I would be willing to bet - just based on the fact over half of the vehicles on the road are V8 trucks and sport utilities

    Moved to Hybrids duds & diesels thread....
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    You will be real lucky to get a 15% fuel savings with the Camry hybrid over the regular 4 cylinder model. It is PZEV rated so what will the premium buy you?

    It depends on what kind of driving you do. Living and working in downtown means most my driving is on downtown roads. With my kind of driving I feel quite optimistic that my fuel savings with a hybrid Camry will involve more than 15% fuel savings over a equivalent 4 cyl. Camry.
  • Toyotamover said:

    "Less fuel usage = Less dependency on foreign oil period. It should not be about money and if you can't see that or can't afford it, buy something else.

    ....We need to free ourselves from this and do it now. If just 25% of us drove hybrids we would be free. Think about it. It is NOT about the money. Sorry, but I am tired of hearing that."

    Actually the problem is not so much the miles per gallon of any vehicle, buit the fact that the number of vehicle miles driven each year is exponentially increasing. Reducing gas consumption and emisisons per vehicle doen't help that much if the vehicle base keeps increasing.

    There are alternative forms of fuel but they have to be planned developed and implemented.

    YThere is mas transportation, but unless it is fairly ubiquitious and mandated it will never happen.

    Combine the two and reintroduce nulcear. Nuclear based mass public transportations and power generation. Cuurnet coal electric generation not only has high emmissions but we are actually starting to run low on coal. Check you recent electic bill.

    By why doesn't the government do any of this, because it is all about saving time, effort, and money!

    Okay if you really want to conserve gasoline go to a push mover for your lawn, open your windows and quit using air conditioning and heating, become an agrarian and grow your own food, quit driving cars altogether get a bicycle for transporation.

    Shifting,

    MidCow
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    gagrice wrote:
    You will be real lucky to get a 15% fuel savings with the Camry hybrid over the regular 4 cylinder model. It is PZEV rated so what will the premium buy you?

    dewey wrote:
    It depends on what kind of driving you do. Living and working in downtown means most my driving is on downtown roads. With my kind of driving I feel quite optimistic that my fuel savings with a hybrid Camry will involve more than 15% fuel savings over a equivalent 4 cyl. Camry.

    Two points:
    The comparo should be between the TCH and other V6's. One of the benefits of this technology is that it allows the driver to choose if it's performance or pure economy that's most important. The TCH can be driven like any other V6 with 190+ HP and no consideration at all for FE. In this comparo the FE improvement is, at worst, 25% assuming one drives like the leadfooted testers.

    As Dewey mentioned in his particular situation:
    It depends entirely on you and your personal circumstances. With the technology at your disposal why wouldnt you use it to maximze your FE if that's your choice.

    Real numbers: since 1989 I have driven 4c Camry's - until the Prius 2 months ago. With the new technologies available in the ICE 4c's a driver will get realworld 31 mpg everyday for 10 years in Highway driving. But in the city you will only get about 25-26 mpg. Of this I am absolutely certain based on 500000+ miles of driving 4c Camry's.

    If you use the best features of the new TCH you will get about 35-36 mpg on the Hwy and way over 40 mpg in the city driving.

    At worst over a valid statistical sample of say 15000 mi using the best features of the system any driver will get right at 35 mpg combined every year of its life. This is about a 60% improvement for mainly city driving and a 10% improvement for mainly highway driving. The weighted average between the two will determine your annual FE.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Here is a great paragraph from the link below:

    The Hybrid tucked right in between the LE and the XLE, in performance, especially, although the instantaneous torque from the electric motor at times delivered acceleration that felt equal to, if not quicker than the V6. And compared with the Honda Accord Hybrid, the transitions between just the electric motor powering the car to full hybrid, with motor and engine together, were much smoother. Not invisible, but more heard than felt, whereas in an Accord Hybrid we had driven a couple weeks earlier, the transitions sometimes felt like an almost-missed shift. But in terms of ride, handling and interior comfort, were it not for the graphic display of the hybrid's status, the substitution of a welcome, real-time, fuel economy gauge for the tachometer and the unique, abbreviated shift gate, we easily could have believed we were driving an XLE. The hybrid system combines a 147-hp, 2.4-liter inline four-cylinder engine with a 45-hp permanent magnet synchronous electric motor, yielding a net 192 horsepower.

    Hybrid Review
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,028
    The comparo should be between the TCH and other V6's

    This is where we disagree. First my understanding is that Toyota sells about 80% of their Camry model as a 4 C. So the improvement should be on that model not the V6. After all the whole premise behind the hybrids was to improve the mileage of a given type vehicle. Honda failed miserably with the HAH. We will not know for a while but for me to consider the Camry Hybrid with the added complexity, I would have to see a combined 40 MPG for the average driver.

    The week I drove a Camry 4C I thought it had more than enough power and acceleration for a family sedan. If I wanted to satisfy a speed demon residing in myself I would buy a Porsche.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    For the new generation, Toyota is going to sell non-hybrid 4s at 60% of Camry sales...this is according to the newest issue of Car and Driver.

    ~alpha
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    This is one of the best benefits of this new trim. You are actually getting two vehicles for the price of one. My own phrase.

    If you want to drive a V6 you can do so and likely get FE ratings in the low 30's.

    If you want to drive a 4c you can do this and potentially get FE ratings in the low 40's.

    It's the owner's choice. It certainly does make the comparo's more complex. Both are valid.
  • If you want a fast Camry, get the V6. If you want something faster than a 4 cylinder, uses less gas, and pollutes less, then opt for the hybrid.

    The V6 with the 6-speed auto should be good for about a 6 second 0-60mph time or less (the heavier Avalon with the same engine and a 5 speed auto did 6.0s flat, C&D). The hybrid should see around 8.5s.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    I feel like the Hybrid will be quicker than that- the last generation 190 horse 5A Camry V6- weighing 3425 lbs... hit 60 in 7.6 seconds, according to Car and Driver.

    This Hybrid uses a CVT with more combined power and torque, and while it does weigh 3600 lbs, I dont think its going to take an entire second longer. Toyota has claimed 8.9 seconds, I just don't buy it. (They also claim 6.5 to 60 for the 6A Camry V6, which likely is slow as well).

    My guess for the Hybrid- 8.1 to 60.

    ~alpha
  • Are any of these as fast as the Pruis? LOL

    MidCow
  • ...I think the Camry Hybrid--unlike the Prius--will be far better accepted as a "regular" car. Because the gasoline engine already has decent performance, the Camry Hybrid won't feel flat footed on hard acceleration. :)

    Also, the Camry Hybrid will share the excellent interior space of the regular Camry, too. :)
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi RayChuang00:

    I may have read 10,000 posts about the Prius II from maybe 1,000 Prius II owners and remember just 3 or 4 that mentioned anything about it being underpowered. Does that mean 99.9% of its owners feel it is actually powerful enough and are enjoying their excellent FE given the price at the pump nowadays?

    As for being accepted, I think the Prius II’s waiting lists speak for itself … The TCH will have the Accord I4 w/ Auto beat in both the performance and FE arena for most but it is to bad Toyota wasn’t shooting for what most hybrid owners actually seek. That is a spectacular increase in FE instead of simply beating the std. Accord from 0 - 60, using the Camry’s std. 2.4 L because it was an easier and less costly retool, or whatever criteria they were using in the design of the upcoming TCH :(

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • Having actually driven both a first-generation Prius (my brother's car) and a second-generation Prius (my brother-in-law's car) I can say that the big problem with the Prius is that if you want good acceleration, you can forget about that idea! :( Live within the limits of the acceleration of the Prius and it's not that bad.

    That's why I think the Camry Hybrid will sell--mostly because the acceleration is reasonably decent and especially because the shape of the car doesn't look like something out of a futuristic movie!
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi RayChuang00:

    That is the difference between someone that owns one and someone who owns something else and drives one. When do you actually need more then a 14 second car to 60? In Europe you most certainly do not as many B-Class sized subs perform in that range. I am not that familiar w/ Asia but given some of the traffic tie ups I have seen inside of Viet Nam and some in China’s more popular areas, I am surprised anyone would need a 0 - 20 second automobile given you cannot move anyway! Here in the states, land of the infinite HP want vs. need, there are 18-wheelers in every city in America with far less performance then 15 seconds to 60 and they merge onto highways and accelerate from lights just fine. This HP and performance at the expense of FE game has become idiotic no matter what the performance of said automobile is. The Prius II’s are plenty fast enough and those that own them praise them like no other automobile they have ever owned from my reads. I am not saying the Prius II is god’s gift as it has many quirks and I may actually be its worst critic but it has proven itself to be a well designed automobile in a number of areas. I only wish the rest of the auto manufactures would/could follow given the Prius II’s FE capabilities …

    The TCH’s HSD was partially lifted from the Prius/RXh/HH. I would suspect it will perform admirably and be dependable for many years to come. The TCH’s performance numbers released to date are in line with the best of the I4 equipped family sedans, the FE (EPA and real world depending on driver) blows all out of them out of the water, and we only need to wait for pricing details to know if it will be the hit we are all suspecting it will be. The wife needs a replacement for the MDX and damned if I will ever let her purchase another fuel sucking pig no matter what her wants are. The TCH may be that vehicle but even its seemingly high 43/36 numbers are a bit of a disappointment knowing full well what it could have been worth if saddled with an Atkinsonized 1.8 out of the Corolla to the tune of 0 - 60 in 10 + instead of 9 - … FE will/is becoming far more important then 0 - 60 and the TCH has been tuned to play the performance game in some regards instead of offering its owners what will really matter over the next 5 - 10 years. That being even higher FE …

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    In two paragraphs you have summarized the LA Times article and confirmed exactly what Toyota has been expecting since the initial Prius came out in 2001.

    OTOH I fall in the frugal ( read cheap ) category and while I love the Camry as a vehicle I opted for the Prius last year because it would likely be $4000 less money and it actually does get 20-30% better FE than the new TCH will. I dont need the acceleration at all and it's usually jut me in it 90+% of the time.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The TCH may be that vehicle but even its seemingly high 43/36 numbers are a bit of a disappointment knowing full well what it could have been worth if saddled with an Atkinsonized 1.8 out of the Corolla to the tune of 0 - 60 in 10 + instead of 9 - ..

    Wayne, I'm fairly certain that the process has not been completed. The strategy by Toyota has been nothing if not methodical and well-thought-out.
    Attract attention - Gen1 Prius
    Attract early adopters - Gen2 Prius ( roaring success )
    Show the system's performance capabilities - 400h, HH ( the market speaks: 'Ho-hum')
    Go mainstream in the most common auto on the road - TCH (a huge success likely )

    then..

    Sienna, RAV, Corolla, Tundra.

    What if the new Corolla next year didnt even have an ICE option. It's highly unlikely for a lot of reasons but it would be dramatic. In view of the excellent new Civic I dont see Toyota coming along with some ho-hum minor update.

    Also in the strategy to keep the individual models unique in order to appeal to distinct buyers IMO they shouldnt blend into one another. Driven to use its best capabilities the TCH will allow drivers to attain FE in the low 40's. This allows the new Corolla to hit the high 40's then followed by the Gen3 Prius in the ....?

    Methodical. Boring ;) . Successful :D .
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Kdhspyder:

    I hear you loud and clear ;)

    I hate seeing the manufacturers (Toyota) allowing their B efforts to prosper instead of their full-on A-Game no matter what their longer term plans are … The next gen HSD equipped Corolla would make a hell of a FE platform (better then the Prius II in fact) but the wife hates the Corolla’s size and amenities. In fact, she barely tolerates the Accord’s amenities and it’s the EX-L w/ NAVI! She is the one that needs a dose of reality I am afraid but the TCH may be an excellent go-between … Notice I said may be? I will be waiting for the TCH’s pricing details and if they are out of line, the 08 Fusion HEV may actually be the car she owns next depending on its capabilities and equipment? I find the FEH’s EV mode to be a bit more robust then Toyota’s but its SoC and ICE-Off programming are a bit too rigid leaving it less capable then what it really could be. The Fusion HEV is being designed to work around those limitations from my inside line but that remains to be seen … Then again, I really dislike the plasticy (I know, not an actual word) looking dash’s in the Fusion right now :(

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    Mr Gerdes, first, thanks for the informative posts. Second, allow me a minor quibble.

    >>Owning V6’s w/today’s and worse yet, tomorrows gasoline prices is already a thing of the past. You have not yet realized this paradigm shift has already occurred."

    The EPA mpg spread between the '07 C V6 & Hybrid is about 12mpg (real world, is probably closer to 10).

    But let's use 12 mpg at $3/gal. At 12,000 miles per year, that's $32/month. A dollar a day. Millions of Americans spend more than that on their fancy cup of coffee. Most of us, for better or worse, don't give that kind of money much thought. Maybe we should.

    At $4 gas, the cost hits about $1.40/day. Even at that, it'll need to go higher to separate most Americans from their gas guzzlers.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Your math is correct and your analysis unfortunately is correct as well. But at some point we have to stop sending $1.00/day donations to the MidEast/OPEC.

    It truly is beginning to change, I think everyone can sense it. Now it just has to be done. $400/yr x 20 Million drivers is $8 Billion kept here annually.

    Maybe in the State of the Union after 'addiction to oil' if he said 'I challenge you the American people starting tomorrow to save $1 / day and keep $8 Billion dollars here in the US.'.... '... or I will find a way to keep it here'
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Lzc:

    The EPA mpg spread between the '07 C V6 & Hybrid is about 12mpg (real world, is probably closer to 10).

    Camry V6: EPA rated 22/31 - 26.5 combined
    Camry I4 w/ HSD: EPA rated 43/36 - 39.5 combined

    Do you know of anyone with a current gen 3.0 L V6 equipped Camry receiving the EPA? I believe the average - future TCH owner will see around 34 mpg. The average V6 owner might see in the low 20’s or worse with any kind of city commute? I am guessing however.

    But let's use 12 mpg at $3/gal. At 12,000 miles per year, that's $32/month. A dollar a day. Millions of Americans spend more than that on their fancy cup of coffee. Most of us, for better or worse, don't give that kind of money much thought. Maybe we should.

    At $4 gas, the cost hits about $1.40/day. Even at that, it'll need to go higher to separate most Americans from their gas guzzlers.


    Cost: The V6 is supposed to cost more on the front end with the hybrid giving even more back on trade-in/resale. At least that is the way it has worked over the last 3 years with the Prius I, II, and HCH-I as gasoline prices have risen?

    The less gasoline consumed, the less $’s going to a few particular countries we all know and love. Besides what that dollar/day outputs in terms of GHG and SMOG related emissions, adding to our absolutely abysmal balance of trade does not help matters either. I would prefer to place $300 - $500 per year in my pocket rather then somebody else’s if I had the choice. That is unless someone wanted the thrill of running WOT stoplight to stoplight or up to the bumper of the car in front of them. They may as well be driving the V6 in that case and receive 13 mpg … Well, that is what CR’s received in their city cycle with an V6 equipped XLE 2 years ago?

    http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/fuel_efficient_cars_category.html-

    When all is said and done, if we had the choice between the 3.5 L V6 and its FE or the TCH and its FE for the ~ same price, which Camry would the average consumer choose? Given the vast majority already choose the less expensive I4 to save money on initial purchase and receive better FE, I have to believe that the same average consumer would pick the more fuel efficient TCH over and above the V6 if those were the only 2 choices offered. The real question will be how many average consumers will choose the non-hybrid I4 at maybe $3,000 - $5,000 less then the TCH once the discounts on the non-hybrids begin a few weeks to months after the initial release?

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    Of course I agree with the 2 posts above about the need for Americans to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. My point was nothing more than that even a 10-12 mpg spread between conventional and hybrid engines does not today result in a cost difference that is significant to many Americans.

    Do you know of anyone with a current gen 3.0 L V6 equipped Camry receiving the EPA?

    Absolutely! I drive a '92 Camry V6 that dependably exceeds its 18-25 EPA rating. But then, I'm a conservative driver. My wife's '98 I4 Accord also exceeds it's 25-31 rating consistently.

    Thanks for the interesting CR report on their mileage experiences. Only 2 mpg difference between the 4 and 6 cyl Accord. That's exactly what Camry estimates for its '07 models.

    My hunch is that the hybrid will sell (not necessary list) for more than the V6. We shall see. In '74 & '75, when gas prices doubled, people were dumping near-new Lincolns and Caddys at practically any price, all to save a few dollars on gas. America's shortcomings in math are not recent. :)

    I will probably be one of those who goes for the I4 Camry, never being one to stand in long lines or pay scalper prices for "must have tickets."

    And good luck to you.

    lzc, Oregon
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    But at some point we have to stop sending $1.00/day donations to the MidEast/OPEC.

    Based on averaging the real world mileage achieved in hybrid Camry reviews and combing that figure with my annual mileage, I end up saving about $320 over my 6 cylinder BMW 3 series.

    The amount of $320 is equivalent to a year of weekly McDonalds meals. That $320 amount does not all go to unsavory oil producing countries. It also goes to Western oil companies and to more savory oil countries like Canada. So let us say about $125 dollars ends up in the pockets of inhabitants who are homicidally hostile to Danish cartoonists.

    In other words if I continue driving my 6 cylinder car I am dontating the weekly equivalent of small fries and half a medium Coke to the Middle East. This miniscule amount is not going to alter the balance of power between Mideast countries and the Developed world.

    So what am I trying to say? If you want to buy a car for political reasons then there are better fuel efficent alternatives than the hybrid Camry. And may I also add cheaper alternatives.
  • Dewey,

    You'll be proud of me, I am buying a small 2.2L 4 cylinder today and will drive my big ole gas hog V6 less.

    Maybe goodbye as I cruise with the top down,

    MidCow
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Based on dollars and sense that is one very wise decision.

    I am beginning to have doubts about my own rationale in spending a premium for hybrid technology.

    I will have to defer my hybrid Camry buying decision until I see an official price. But I have a strong hunch that the premium will be as hefty as prior Toyota/Lexus hybrid models.
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