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Toyota Camry Hybrid

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  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    In two paragraphs you have summarized the LA Times article and confirmed exactly what Toyota has been expecting since the initial Prius came out in 2001.

    OTOH I fall in the frugal ( read cheap ) category and while I love the Camry as a vehicle I opted for the Prius last year because it would likely be $4000 less money and it actually does get 20-30% better FE than the new TCH will. I dont need the acceleration at all and it's usually jut me in it 90+% of the time.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    The TCH may be that vehicle but even its seemingly high 43/36 numbers are a bit of a disappointment knowing full well what it could have been worth if saddled with an Atkinsonized 1.8 out of the Corolla to the tune of 0 - 60 in 10 + instead of 9 - ..

    Wayne, I'm fairly certain that the process has not been completed. The strategy by Toyota has been nothing if not methodical and well-thought-out.
    Attract attention - Gen1 Prius
    Attract early adopters - Gen2 Prius ( roaring success )
    Show the system's performance capabilities - 400h, HH ( the market speaks: 'Ho-hum')
    Go mainstream in the most common auto on the road - TCH (a huge success likely )

    then..

    Sienna, RAV, Corolla, Tundra.

    What if the new Corolla next year didnt even have an ICE option. It's highly unlikely for a lot of reasons but it would be dramatic. In view of the excellent new Civic I dont see Toyota coming along with some ho-hum minor update.

    Also in the strategy to keep the individual models unique in order to appeal to distinct buyers IMO they shouldnt blend into one another. Driven to use its best capabilities the TCH will allow drivers to attain FE in the low 40's. This allows the new Corolla to hit the high 40's then followed by the Gen3 Prius in the ....?

    Methodical. Boring ;) . Successful :D .
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Kdhspyder:

    I hear you loud and clear ;)

    I hate seeing the manufacturers (Toyota) allowing their B efforts to prosper instead of their full-on A-Game no matter what their longer term plans are … The next gen HSD equipped Corolla would make a hell of a FE platform (better then the Prius II in fact) but the wife hates the Corolla’s size and amenities. In fact, she barely tolerates the Accord’s amenities and it’s the EX-L w/ NAVI! She is the one that needs a dose of reality I am afraid but the TCH may be an excellent go-between … Notice I said may be? I will be waiting for the TCH’s pricing details and if they are out of line, the 08 Fusion HEV may actually be the car she owns next depending on its capabilities and equipment? I find the FEH’s EV mode to be a bit more robust then Toyota’s but its SoC and ICE-Off programming are a bit too rigid leaving it less capable then what it really could be. The Fusion HEV is being designed to work around those limitations from my inside line but that remains to be seen … Then again, I really dislike the plasticy (I know, not an actual word) looking dash’s in the Fusion right now :(

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    Mr Gerdes, first, thanks for the informative posts. Second, allow me a minor quibble.

    >>Owning V6’s w/today’s and worse yet, tomorrows gasoline prices is already a thing of the past. You have not yet realized this paradigm shift has already occurred."

    The EPA mpg spread between the '07 C V6 & Hybrid is about 12mpg (real world, is probably closer to 10).

    But let's use 12 mpg at $3/gal. At 12,000 miles per year, that's $32/month. A dollar a day. Millions of Americans spend more than that on their fancy cup of coffee. Most of us, for better or worse, don't give that kind of money much thought. Maybe we should.

    At $4 gas, the cost hits about $1.40/day. Even at that, it'll need to go higher to separate most Americans from their gas guzzlers.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Your math is correct and your analysis unfortunately is correct as well. But at some point we have to stop sending $1.00/day donations to the MidEast/OPEC.

    It truly is beginning to change, I think everyone can sense it. Now it just has to be done. $400/yr x 20 Million drivers is $8 Billion kept here annually.

    Maybe in the State of the Union after 'addiction to oil' if he said 'I challenge you the American people starting tomorrow to save $1 / day and keep $8 Billion dollars here in the US.'.... '... or I will find a way to keep it here'
  • xcelxcel Posts: 1,025
    Hi Lzc:

    The EPA mpg spread between the '07 C V6 & Hybrid is about 12mpg (real world, is probably closer to 10).

    Camry V6: EPA rated 22/31 - 26.5 combined
    Camry I4 w/ HSD: EPA rated 43/36 - 39.5 combined

    Do you know of anyone with a current gen 3.0 L V6 equipped Camry receiving the EPA? I believe the average - future TCH owner will see around 34 mpg. The average V6 owner might see in the low 20’s or worse with any kind of city commute? I am guessing however.

    But let's use 12 mpg at $3/gal. At 12,000 miles per year, that's $32/month. A dollar a day. Millions of Americans spend more than that on their fancy cup of coffee. Most of us, for better or worse, don't give that kind of money much thought. Maybe we should.

    At $4 gas, the cost hits about $1.40/day. Even at that, it'll need to go higher to separate most Americans from their gas guzzlers.


    Cost: The V6 is supposed to cost more on the front end with the hybrid giving even more back on trade-in/resale. At least that is the way it has worked over the last 3 years with the Prius I, II, and HCH-I as gasoline prices have risen?

    The less gasoline consumed, the less $’s going to a few particular countries we all know and love. Besides what that dollar/day outputs in terms of GHG and SMOG related emissions, adding to our absolutely abysmal balance of trade does not help matters either. I would prefer to place $300 - $500 per year in my pocket rather then somebody else’s if I had the choice. That is unless someone wanted the thrill of running WOT stoplight to stoplight or up to the bumper of the car in front of them. They may as well be driving the V6 in that case and receive 13 mpg … Well, that is what CR’s received in their city cycle with an V6 equipped XLE 2 years ago?

    http://autos.yahoo.com/consumerreports/article/fuel_efficient_cars_category.html-

    When all is said and done, if we had the choice between the 3.5 L V6 and its FE or the TCH and its FE for the ~ same price, which Camry would the average consumer choose? Given the vast majority already choose the less expensive I4 to save money on initial purchase and receive better FE, I have to believe that the same average consumer would pick the more fuel efficient TCH over and above the V6 if those were the only 2 choices offered. The real question will be how many average consumers will choose the non-hybrid I4 at maybe $3,000 - $5,000 less then the TCH once the discounts on the non-hybrids begin a few weeks to months after the initial release?

    Good Luck

    Wayne R. Gerdes
  • lzclzc Posts: 483
    Of course I agree with the 2 posts above about the need for Americans to reduce our dependence on foreign oil. My point was nothing more than that even a 10-12 mpg spread between conventional and hybrid engines does not today result in a cost difference that is significant to many Americans.

    Do you know of anyone with a current gen 3.0 L V6 equipped Camry receiving the EPA?

    Absolutely! I drive a '92 Camry V6 that dependably exceeds its 18-25 EPA rating. But then, I'm a conservative driver. My wife's '98 I4 Accord also exceeds it's 25-31 rating consistently.

    Thanks for the interesting CR report on their mileage experiences. Only 2 mpg difference between the 4 and 6 cyl Accord. That's exactly what Camry estimates for its '07 models.

    My hunch is that the hybrid will sell (not necessary list) for more than the V6. We shall see. In '74 & '75, when gas prices doubled, people were dumping near-new Lincolns and Caddys at practically any price, all to save a few dollars on gas. America's shortcomings in math are not recent. :)

    I will probably be one of those who goes for the I4 Camry, never being one to stand in long lines or pay scalper prices for "must have tickets."

    And good luck to you.

    lzc, Oregon
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    But at some point we have to stop sending $1.00/day donations to the MidEast/OPEC.

    Based on averaging the real world mileage achieved in hybrid Camry reviews and combing that figure with my annual mileage, I end up saving about $320 over my 6 cylinder BMW 3 series.

    The amount of $320 is equivalent to a year of weekly McDonalds meals. That $320 amount does not all go to unsavory oil producing countries. It also goes to Western oil companies and to more savory oil countries like Canada. So let us say about $125 dollars ends up in the pockets of inhabitants who are homicidally hostile to Danish cartoonists.

    In other words if I continue driving my 6 cylinder car I am dontating the weekly equivalent of small fries and half a medium Coke to the Middle East. This miniscule amount is not going to alter the balance of power between Mideast countries and the Developed world.

    So what am I trying to say? If you want to buy a car for political reasons then there are better fuel efficent alternatives than the hybrid Camry. And may I also add cheaper alternatives.
  • Dewey,

    You'll be proud of me, I am buying a small 2.2L 4 cylinder today and will drive my big ole gas hog V6 less.

    Maybe goodbye as I cruise with the top down,

    MidCow
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Based on dollars and sense that is one very wise decision.

    I am beginning to have doubts about my own rationale in spending a premium for hybrid technology.

    I will have to defer my hybrid Camry buying decision until I see an official price. But I have a strong hunch that the premium will be as hefty as prior Toyota/Lexus hybrid models.
  • 210delray210delray Posts: 4,722
    Preliminary info suggests the Camry Hybrid will be priced the same or higher than the top-of-the-line Camry XLE 4-cylinder.

    So you'd save a lot up front by just buying the conventional 4-cylinder CE or LE.

    My '04 4-cylinder LE is getting from 23 mpg in the city to 38 mpg on the highway. So far, my '05 XLE (also 4-cyl., but with the 5-speed auto) is getting 21/32 mpg city/highway.
  • I like to mention the TCH is a good balance of the two. The V6 has good power and run efficiently. If you drive highway moat of the time or frequently carry more than 3 and stuffs in the car, V6 is definitely has its edge not only in 0-60 acceleration. For drivers commute in the city that have average speed below 30mph or, even worse, stop and go, and only seat one or two most of the time, I4 is more than you need. Now, if you have a Hybrid, it take care both worlds except drag racing. The eletrical power provide plenty of torque which help when start at stop or full loaded while it run especially efficient in low speed and stop and go. Of cause for who concern gas mileage but need to drive highway most of the time, the saving is almost nothing except air pollution reliefe. To most driver ( I would say 90%) will benefit from hybrid at certain point.

    Unlike the Accord hybrid, performance is not the main focus so for those who got to leap ahead everyone at the traffic light TCH is not for them. I have to give credit to Toyota of their decision on practicability.

    For who still doubt the mileage saving on hybrid: research showing whoever bought a hybrid will more and less trying to challenge the best mileage they can achieve (EPA rating as goal for example). This somehow change the driving behavier a little. They tend to be more gentle on acceleration and deceleration as well. As to the number from testdrive article, those driver usually drive harder than most of us. So the mileage will be lower than average drivers in the real world. One thing I know is the more passengers you carry, the worse the gas mileage will be. The mileage difference will more likely stand so the percentage of moleage different is even higher. I usually keep the vehicle longer so to me I have 10 years to jusitify the $3k extra up front. Also keep in mind that the $3k including some option closed to $1000 plus tax deduction. Overall I may not save more by choosing hybrid but at least I contribute reduce the harmful emission!
  • negativenegative Posts: 107
    I saw the hybrid at the Philadelphia Auto Show tonight. Unfortunately, it was up on a turntable, off limits. But I asked the model who was turning along with it to open the trunk and fold down the rear seat. She obliged me. Why they bothered to give it a folding seat is a mystery. The opening is really small, and is only on the right (passenger) side. On the left is the battery, which blocks the opening. At least it's concealed behind some fabric trim. (The photo on pressroom.toyota.com made it look like the battery was exposed.) The trunk generally looked kind of small, although it was hard to tell since I couldn't get too close. I need to carry a bike, so the hybrid is off the (turn?) table for me.

    I sat in an '07 Camry XLE which was not on a turntable. As is typical of cars in auto shows, nothing electrical worked, so I couldn't adjust the seat, which was at its lowest position. The dashboard seemed kind of high, but maybe that was because of the seat position.

    I think that the door pull on the driver's door will be a problem for a lot of people. There's no way to use the window switches without hitting the left side of your wrist against it. The door pull may be a minor thing, but I think I'd find it really annoying. Perhaps Toyota should make Ace bandages optional equipment on the '07.

    In terms of comfort, space and visibility, the Hyundai Sonata and the incoming Kia Optima looked really good by comparison, and I will probably be buying one of them.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Thanks for the new information about the trunk.

    The lack of opening seat space is an issue since the Camry would be our family's designated cargo hauler(we dont own a van, wagon or suv).
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    This may be the same article from the LA TImes posted earlier. Some of us do not read the LA Times.

    How does it drive? Quintessentially Camry-like. Unlike the spanking-quick Honda Accord Hybrid, which uses the hybrid power to boost the performance of its V6 powerplant, the Camry moves at a deliberate and unhurried pace — which is to say, it's kind of slow. Although it has enough asphalt savvy for ordinary driving, it's rather yacht-like in its cornering and steering responses.

    Which makes the fuel economy all the more remarkable. Compared to the fuel economy of the 2.4-litre, automatic-equipped LE model (9.8 L/100 km city, 7.1 highway), the Hybrid offers about 30 per cent better fuel economy than the four-cylinder, even though it is heavier (by 160 kg) and more powerful (by 34 horsepower).


    TCH Review
  • Gagprice:

    If they say "the Camry moves at a deliberate and unhurried pace — which is to say, it's kind of slow." I wonder what they would say about the prius which is 2 seconds slower in the 0-60 time.

    I went out cruis'n in my 4 cylinder today. 237 hp out of 2.2L Life is great.

    MidCow

    P.S. -Even better my bonus this year almost paid for the car!
  • "If you drive highway moat of the time or frequently carry more than 3 and stuffs in the car, V6 is definitely has its edge not only in 0-60 acceleration. For drivers commute in the city that have average speed below 30mph or, even worse, stop and go, and only seat one or two most of the time, I4 is more than you need"

    There is no realistic need for a V6. All my family owns and drives are I4s and most of the time with 3 or 4 people in them. In my I4 civic I plenty of highway power being able to pass and merge and get on the highway quicker than many other vehicles that have V-6 or even 8-cylinders. What most people fail to realize is that the V-6 and 8cyl come with a lot more weight making them almost identical to 4cyl.

    In addition when at highway speeds there is barely any difference in power between most 4s and 6s. Plus the majority of people who say they need a V-6 to merge or climb a mountain barely even use any of that power and rarely have the engine go above 3-4k rpms.

    For all the people that say they need a V-6 to merge or pass on a highway, those are the people that get me nervous when driving next to. If they need the extra power to do simple manuevers, watch out! They are compensating for their poor driving skills.

    There is my 2 cents!
  • When at highway speeds, aerodynamics play a much greater role in your ability to accelerate when compared to power. The more slippery your car is the faster it will be able to accelerate on the highway.
  • njeraldnjerald Posts: 688
    The Hybrid drive/batteries cause a 33% loss in trunk space. Down to 10+ ft3.
  • Mthexuma said: "When at highway speeds, aerodynamics play a much greater role in your ability to accelerate when compared to power. The more slippery your car is the faster it will be able to accelerate on the highway. "

    Wrong! Horsepower/torque is still what allows a car to accelerate.

    The CD coefficient of drag is a factor, but it is not the major factor in accleration at highway speed.

    If you think different go get a SRT8 (425 horsepower Hemi) Jeep which has a crummy CD 0f ).51 and compare it against a Prius which hhas a low CD (.25) at highway speed for acceleration.

    For highway driving, the key is to drive slower. That's true for all cars, but especially for hybrids.

    Wind resistance increases with the square of velocity, and at highway speeds wind resistance is the dominant consumer of energy in your car. So if you drive twice as fast, your car has to work four times as hard, and even though your trip only takes half as long, your engine still has to do twice as much work to get you there.

    Wind resistance does increase as the square of the velocity, but horsepower/torque is what differentiates acceleration. And torque can be increased with lower gears,!! Try putting a 4.11 rear end in a Prius and you will see what I mean.

    The only time CD comes into play is when the torque/horsepower of the two cars in nearly equal.

    LOL,

    MidCow, slippin through the air.
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