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Toyota Camry Hybrid

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  • JBaumgartJBaumgart Posts: 890
    "Are there others of any consequence that I missed?"

    The XLE weighs less, and will probably handle better and stop quicker. The brake pedal will probably have better feel.

    The Hybrid will accelerate faster, and in low speed/stop and go conditions will probably be quieter.
  • cammer2cammer2 Posts: 38
    I know someone alluded to this a few posts back, but have not seen anything since.

    The current issue of Motor Trend has a comparison of Prius/Civic Hybrid and Accord/Camry hybrid. I saw it at the local bookstore and glanced through the article.

    (Yes, I'm still WAITING for my own copy in the mail!! Why don't paying subscribers get their copy FIRST???!! But that's another forum!)

    Anyway, a few things I remember:
    - 0-60 in 7.9 seconds
    - MIXED driving of 31.5 mpg, including a stretch where the driver punched it to 100
    - driver thought it was easy to get 40 mpg going 70
    (and yes, I was surprised that the driver got better HW miles than city)

    That's all I remember. I am anxiously waiting for my own copy to pour through more of the stats. Hope that's helpful to anyone looking for my CH info
  • njeraldnjerald Posts: 688
    Hybrid will have a CVT instead of a 5 speed transmission.

    No Stabilty/Traction Control needed on the Hybrid because the VDIM system integrates the stability, traction and ABS systems.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Read the lastest Consumer Reports article about the "The dollars & sense of hybrids".

    Quoted: "In our analysis, none of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership (see Hybrids vs. all gas). Nor did any when the analysis was extended to 10 years and 150,000 miles. Rather, extra ownership costs over five years ranged from $3,700 to $13,300. "

    Out of 6 hybirds they tested ,NONE were more cost effective after five years than their equvalent non-Hybrid models.

    I find it humorous that the Prius no equivalent is equated to the Corolla.

    Lucky I didn't buy a hydrid, becuase who in their right might likes to drive like their grandmother :confuse:

    Double Sixes,

    MidCow
  • jtdpxjtdpx Posts: 19
    Am I missing something here? The referenced Motor Trend Article in the March issue only contains EPA mileage figures for the Camry Hybrid, and says the estimated 0 - 60 is 8.9 seconds (they did not actually test it yet for that). Where do you get the 31.5 MPG & 0 - 60 at 7.9 seconds? Thanks!
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Out of 6 hybirds they tested ,NONE were more cost effective after five years than their equvalent non-Hybrid models.

    I find it humorous that the Prius no equivalent is equated to the Corolla.


    Right there on the face of it wrong comparo so the entire conclusion is specious. There is no non-hybrid Prius. CR is trying to put a square peg in a round hole.

    OK if you want a smaller vehicle than a Prius you can save money no question, but you can also buy a Fit too or a Yaris for that matter and save tons of money. Certain buyers wont be caught dead in an econobox.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    Lucky I didn't buy a hydrid, becuase who in their right might likes to drive like their grandmother

    I do, especially after getting a real nasty speeding ticket last week. If only I drove a hybrid in a grandmotherly fashion then I would not know the names of every single officer on traffic control duty. :cry:
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    Dewey,

    Sorry about your ticket. That is a real bummer :cry: . While I hade the density or the traffic and the amount of drivers in Houston. The traffic and density also has advantages, you can drive fast here most of the time without fear of tickets! :shades: However, in your case, there has to be an in-between speeding and driving elderly that would better fit your needs and pocketbook! Hyperdriving , except for looking at the FDC and instanteous mileage, can be Oh so boring! Life should not be about dreading going from point A to B. Listening to my Invidia exhaust with the top down, now that is living even going the speed limit.

    My Grandmother, bless her soul, taught me to drive a standard many, many years ago on a 3 speed shift on the column Black Chevy :)

    cruis'n in 6th,

    MidCow

    Hey KDSpyder- What in your opinion is the closest non-hybrid Toyota car to the Prius if not the Corolla? What should CR have compared it to ? The Camry seems too big ??
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Look at the marketing, which IMO is brilliant, the size is between the Camry and the Corolla. The ride and features are much more Camry-like than Corolla-like, although from the outside it look more CorVic size than CamCord size. This put's it alone and very difficult to make valid comparisons without making adjustments, features for size or acceleration for ride.

    Let's wait for the TCH and then compare that to the ICE Camry or should it be compared to the ICE V6 Camry? There again which is the valid comparo?
    By comparison it's exactly the same size as the Passat.
  • newt5newt5 Posts: 15
    Quoted: "In our analysis, none of the six hybrids we have tested recovered its price premium in the first five years and 75,000 miles of ownership

    Has anyone ever pointed out that these comparisons are completely unfair? Did Consumer Reports, R&T, MT, etc. do "price premium" comparisons between the 2006 4 and 6 Cylinder Camry, Accord, or [fill in your favorite car here]. Or how about a price premium comparison of the Highlander vs. the RX330? Of course not, because they realize that people bought the V6 or RX330 for different reasons. Many times people buy it because they "need" the extra power, or it looks better. Same thing with folks who buy Hemi's. How many people actually need as much horsepower as is offered in these engines?

    The Hybrid engine offers more than just improved fuel economy. It offers improved power, quiteness, cool-factor, and prestige. Why is it ok for other car buyers to spend money on these things (but not hybrid owners) and why does improved fuel economy have to be something that is measured only in dollars and cents?
  • cammer2cammer2 Posts: 38
    JT,

    Just received my APRIL issue of MT where the article compares Prius/Civic hybrid and Camry/Accord hybrids.
    0-60 time IS 7.9 seconds - so basically, you're getting the performance of a V6, with Corolla-like mpg. Don't think that enters into Consumer Reports article - which by the way, has plenty of assumptions that are just .. well, wrong.

    Some of the Motor Trend article -

    "That's one helluva car," drivers muttered after climbing out of the Camry Hybrid. And they're right - meaning Toyota may be wrong in scheduling only 7% of Camry production to be fitted with HSD. Too low, we recokon ... at a price that's 4 grand cheaper than the Honda's.

    Technically, it's based on the Prius' HSD architecture, but there are differences. One is that it's 2.4-liter Atkinson cycle four is bigger by roughly the displacement of a small Fiat engine, while the electric motor is smaller - 45 hp vs the Prius' 67.

    Our nonscientific observations of the Camry's fuel consumption found the Toyota delivering an honest 40 mpg at a steady 70 mph and a squeak above 30 mpg in LA.

    Other stats:
    45-65 passing - 3.8 seconds vs 5.8 for the Prius
    Braking, 60-0 - 126 ft.
    Weight distribution - 57%/43%

    Hope that helps!
  • raychuang00raychuang00 Posts: 541
    ...It appears that the MT editors were pleasantly surprised by the 2007 Camry Hybrid. While of course it doesn't have neck-snapping performance (that's not the point of the Hybrid Synergy Drive system), MT editors were surprised that it didn't take much work to get over 35 mpg in steady driving.

    I think Toyota's hybrid system is still by far the best, mostly because of its generously powerful electric motor. Small wonder why Toyota is spending a lot of money to dramatically reduce the cost of Hybrid Synergy Drive, which means we could see a hybrid Corolla when the next-generation Corolla arrives in Spring 2007 as a 2008 model. :)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I had the same thought ray..

    It makes perfect sense with the HCH doing well. If a Corolla hybrid were in the $20-$21K range with significantly lower costs it could be the premium version of the Corolla while getting realworld 50-60 mpg averages.

    It also serves the purpose of not having to change the 1.8L used in the CE, LE and S models. Putting the 1.5L + HSD as the premium powertrain in such a light vehicle woul be the upgrade.

    Next year or soon thereafter add the Sienna hybrid and IMO change the Highlander to a 2.4L+HSD hybrid and they have just about accomplished what the goal was of making a hybrid option for every vehicle class.
  • mary99mary99 Posts: 65
    "Hybrid Feature Advantages

    Smart Key
    Better Fuel Economy
    Moonroof not required - Save $ and better headroom
    LED Tailights
    Blue Tinted Headlights
    No stabilty/Traction Control option required

    Are there others of any consequence that I missed?"

    Well, there is the lower emissions, of course! ;)

    That Consumer Reports article has some faulty analysis. CR is investigating it now. You can't add in both the price premium AND the increase in depreciation, unless they really are saying the RX400H will be selling for $6300 LESS than the non-hybrid in 5 years, which I don't think is likely. If you take out the faulty variables, the hybrids win, and that is without a gas price hike forecast, I believe. It also isn't accounting for the value of the other features that are included standard with the hybrid models.
  • mary99mary99 Posts: 65
    I just went and re-read the article. They are considering gas price increases. There are other problems in that chart, though, besides the depreciation line.
  • raychuang00raychuang00 Posts: 541
    Next year or soon thereafter add the Sienna hybrid and IMO change the Highlander to a 2.4L+HSD hybrid and they have just about accomplished what the goal was of making a hybrid option for every vehicle class.

    I think Toyota is trying to work its hardest to dramatically reduce the cost of Hybrid Synergy Drive. If Toyota can do that and also use the next-generation of lithium-ion batteries that will use far smaller battery packs, I wouldn't be surprised that Toyota might just put the Hybrid Synergy Drive into the Sienna with a year. The smaller battery pack would also make it far easier for Toyota to incorporate HSD into the next-generation Corolla due by this time in 2007. :)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    mary99 said:

    "Hybrid Feature Advantages

    ... Moonroof not required - Save $ and better headroom "

    H'mm I never heard the lack of a feature, i.e. moonroof, be list as an advantage!

    Are you in politics ? ;)

    Cheers,

    MidCow

    P.S.- I think CR reaserached and is aware of exactly what they wrote
  • njeraldnjerald Posts: 688
    Not in politics.

    The hybrid has a moonroof as an option.

    I don't want the moonroof so don't have to pay for a feature that I don't want. That will keep the price closer to the XLE.

    That is an advantage!!!!!!!! Think about it!!!
  • Looks like Toyota changed their mind on an option for the Toyota Camry Hybrid (TCH)...Heated Outside Mirrors.

    According to the option list on Toyota.com:
    http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/options.pdf or http://www.toyota.com/images/vehicles/2007/camry/features.pdf
    the heated outside mirrors are now optional or included in the "Comfort & Convenience Package" which also includes heating for the seats, but must be purchased with the "Leather Package"

    The original press release concerning features listed the heated mirrors as standard:
    http://pressroom.toyota.com/presstxt/2007toyotakit/2007CamryHybrid_f.pdf
    of course, to Toyota's credit, this initial information was listed as "preliminary."
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,786
    "Small wonder why Toyota is spending a lot of money to dramatically reduce the cost of Hybrid Synergy Drive, which means we could see a hybrid Corolla when the next-generation Corolla arrives in Spring 2007 as a 2008 model."

    Such a car would directly compete with the Prius in size. If they produce it, there is no point to the Prius.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    I thought so originally as well. But after some input here and elsewhere the 2008 Prius is set already and the intention as I understand is to use the Prius as a launch platform for advanced features; e.g. SKS, BT, HSD, etc.

    In addition if the HSD Corolla came in ~ $18-21000 then the Prius goes from $22-28K and the Camry from $26-31K. This is consistent with the ICE pricing structure.

    Anyone could buy a hybrid from $18K all the way up to Avalon territory.
  • Yes, lack of moonroof is good for some folks. My father special ordered an E-class Benz a few years back with no sunroof - just because of the headroom issue....
  • mary99mary99 Posts: 65
    I didn't write the 'lack of moonroof' thing, just quoted it. But I agree with him. I want a semi-luxurious hybrid I can load up including nav but with no sunroof and no leather.

    Here's a thread about that CR chart, where they say they're researching the issue.

    link title

    I defended them at first, too. Now I think they might've really made a mistake.
  • Prius, Civic hybrid owners save money, Consumer Reports now says

    By Matt Nauman
    Mercury News

    Consumer Reports now says it made an error when calculating the cost of owning a hybrid: Owners of the Toyota Prius and Honda Civic hybrids do save money, the magazine said today.

    Last week, the organization released a statement ahead of its well-read April auto issue, which hit newsstands today, that said owners of the six most popular hybrid vehicles would pay more than buyers of comparable gasoline-only vehicles over their lifetime of ownership.

    Late today, however, Consumer Reports issued a statement acknowledging ``a calculation error.''

    ``We deeply regret the error,'' said Rik Paul, the magazine's automotive editor, said in the statement.

    The new calculations show that owners of the Toyota Prius will save $400 and owners of the Honda Civic will save $300 when compared with gasoline-only counterparts. Owners of four other hybrids -- the Honda Accord, Ford Escape, Toyota Highlander and Lexus RX 400h -- will still end up spending $1,900 to $5,500 more during five years of ownership and 75,000 miles, Consumer Reports said.

    The initial report surprised Northern California hybrid owners.

    ``I find that hard to believe,'' Timothy Tsai of San Jose wrote in an e-mail to the Mercury News.

    Readers such as John Grebenkemper, who has a doctorate from Stanford University, told Consumer Reports it had made a math error in calculating depreciation.
  • mary99mary99 Posts: 65
    Thanks for posting that. I copied it to the CR auto forum. I notice the original chart in the online article has been re-drawn.

    It really wasn't a "math error in calculating depreciation". They were using third-party depreciation data and just plugging it in wrong as 'costs'.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Posts: 1,978
    You know what option I need a heated rear view mirror. My rear view mirror kept fogging up last night and this morning. The side mirrors are not heated either but they don't fog up as much. I come out a warm garage and into a nice crisp 65 degree cool morning and my rear view mirro fogs up , not completley , just a little.

    But I guess you don't have to worry , until they come out with the convertible Camry Hybrid.

    Double Sixes cruis'n top down :shades: ,

    MidCow

    P.S.- I think the upcoming Camry Hybrid is probably the best application of hybrid technology to date. It is the one I would really consider over the HAH and the Prius. Decent performance, good features, good mileage!
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    The new calculations show that owners of the Toyota
    Prius will save $400 and owners of the Honda Civic will save $300 when compared with gasoline-only counterparts.


    Oh what a sigh of relief, 300 to 400 dollars worth of savings!!! That is what I spend in Starbucks during a month or two. This correction of CR still shows that hybrids make little economic sense.
  • robertsmxrobertsmx Posts: 5,525
    This correction of CR still shows that hybrids make little economic sense

    I hope you don't mean that spending $300-400 more a month, as opposed to saving as much, makes some economic sense.

    And then, fuel savings don't have to be strictly a matter of personal economics, almost on the same grounds as getting premium features in any car.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,243
    1)And then, fuel savings don't have to be strictly a matter of personal economics

    I agree

    2) hope you don't mean that spending $300-400 more a month, as opposed to saving as much, makes some economic sense.

    Saving $300 to 400 during 5 years or 75k miles of driving does not make economic sense.
    In addition my caffeine addiction does not make much economic sense either. In fact my economic argument against hybrids is more justified here in Canada than the USA. Here in Canada there are no generous tax incentives and the cold weather affects the fuel efficiency of hybrids even more than non-hybrids.

    My initial order for a hybrid Camry was not really based on economics. My cancellation of my hybrid Camry order was primarily based on economics. We each have our own different priorities and sometimes we ourselves exchange our old priorities(gee-whiz I love the idea of driving a car with HSD technology) with new priorites("Show me the Money"in terms of buying a hybrid)
  • mary99mary99 Posts: 65
    I also think CR is being short-sighted by making it sound like the only reason to buy hybrid is economics. We don't expect any other car features to pay for themselves. I want hybrid for the low emissions, not the gas bill. I want to support the technology so they keep advancing it. They titled that article 'The Dollars and Sense of Hybrids', or something. I think they looked at the dollars but not the sense.
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