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Midsize Pickup Comparo

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  • The Frontier probably is the slightly better value of the two, and has disc brakes all the way around..Toyota really irritates me by using drums in the rear of the Tacoma, and by offering options in expensive packages instead of piecemeal. hello- why isn't cruise control standard on a $23,000 truck?? With that said, I bought a new Tacoma two weeks ago and love it..The main reason I didn't buy the Nissan is because both local dealers are notorious for gouging and pressuring customers, while the local Toyota dealer is above reproach--not to mention I bought it from a friend of a friend who was courteous and professional from beginning to end of the sale. paid a little more than expected , but I'm satisfied and don't regret it a bit.. Merry Christmas to everyone!
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    ...honda has one huge problem with the ridgeline, the spare tire is in the 'bed trunk' i'm sure not too many ridgelines get used as trucks, but what do you do if you're driving with 10 sheets of plywood in your truck and you get a flat?...the in bed trunk sounds good, unless you plan on using your truck as a truck.... i work out of my truck, installing window coverings, so i carry a ladder and many boxes every day, nothing at all heavy, but some long boxes and odd shapes....

    I can understand and fully appreciate your points. For a truck that is used as a daily loaded work truck the Ridgeline spare tire location is anything but ideal. Especially if constantly visiting work sites where flat tires are possibly a real issue.

    On the other hand, the everyday serious work truck is probably not the market Honda is aiming at. I would think that 90% of "TRUCK" owners will use their trucks more like cars most of the time, with the occasional trip to Lowes, H-Depot, or the Shrub nursery. The young soccer players can throw their muddy gear there and yet there is still a (non intrusive) water tight lockable tool box for tool box stuff. In most any other truck the tool box is going to sit in the bed and take up space.

    Last time I got a flat, a can of "Fix-A-Flat" and the portable cigarette lighter powered air pump handled the problem. That was probably the only Flat in our family of 3 cars over a 5-10 year period.

    For a purely work truck I would choose the Forty or Toyota. For a Part time Truck/Full time Family Vehicle, the RL wins by far. :)

    Kip
  • driver56driver56 Posts: 408
    That Ford Ranger 207 H.P. would be a 4 litre I believe.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Last time I got a flat, a can of "Fix-A-Flat" and the portable cigarette lighter powered air pump handled the problem.

    Use caution on when using any liquid tire repair solutions on a vehicle equipped with TPMS systems. All of the 07's being compared have TPMS and many of the 06's.
    Also, make sure repair shop is notified of the TPMS system to prevent damage to the sensor.
    The sensors are very expensive and fix a flat type chemicals are said to possibly damage the sensors. At least that is what the TPMS manufacturers say.

    The sensors are EXPENSIVE to replace.
  • ustazzafustazzaf Posts: 311
    Rear discs are real nice to look at. They do nothing for your braking unless you have a big load in the back. Otherwise, therte is no problem getting enough braking to lock the rears up (unless you have anti-lock, which is exactly why anti-lock was made, because rears had enough power to keep locking up). The comment about using fix a flat tells what wasteful direction the country has taken. It has become easier to replace a ruined tire and wheel than it is to get a little dirty changing a tire. Once that stuff gets onto the wheel and tire, the life of both is drastically reduced due to corrosion and rubber breakdown. Fix a flat is designed if you are far from civilization and you discover that you have a stuck wheel stud or a flat spare. Emergency use is what it is for.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Except brake fade (reduced braking ability because of overheated brakes), which happens a lot more readily on drums than discs.
  • ustazzafustazzaf Posts: 311
    If you have a problem with brake fade, you are are not using your brakes correctly or the fronts are not operating correctly. Fade was a problem with front drums, and continues to be a problem with big rigs due to trailer weight. If you have the vehicle loaded down going down a steep, long windy mountain road, you will encounter fade problems. Under anything that resembles normal day to day use, fade will not be a factor. You could cap off the rears completely under normal use and not notice much if any difference.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    The comment about using fix a flat tells what wasteful direction the country has taken. It has become easier to replace a ruined tire and wheel than it is to get a little dirty changing a tire. Once that stuff gets onto the wheel and tire, the life of both is drastically reduced due to corrosion and rubber breakdown.

    Thanks for the heads up.

    That happened about a month after putting new tires on the old standby 78 Chevy Van. Spring of 2000. Original wheels. A 29Ft camper was attached at the time. Noticed it at a rest stop at near midnight. Except for one 18 wheeler in the truck area we were the only ones there. Just didn't seem like a good time to disable the vehicle.:cry: Slowly drove about 20 miles and found a open truck stop and changed the tire. No one there to fix it. Got it plugged the next day. Pressure was the same as the portable pump had done. Fix-a-Flat did its job. I would do the same again!

    Tires are still on the van. Although all 4 are beginning to show stress cracks on the side walls. When should the corrosion start showing up? :confuse:

    Kip
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Hey, people who drive trucks tend to tow things. When you tow things, you also need to stop them. Disc brakes do a better job at stopping them down that 5,000 foot grade-mountain road than drums, because they will take longer to overheat. It's just a fact. It doesn't make a truck inadequate to have rear drum brakes (heck, my old Honda has rear drums, and they are just fine), it just makes other trucks more capable of long periods of heavy braking without problems.

    A lot of people who buy truck don't buy them for day-to-day use, they buy them to work hard; to tow that boat to the lake in the mountains; to haul those building materials to the worksite; to tow their old classic car on a trailer. For these times, discs are simply better at resisting fade.
  • 2005lekc2005lekc Posts: 145
    Disc brakes are not affected by water like drum brakes are. I had a 1977 Datsun KC 5 speed I drove for 24 years. Drum brakes front and rear. Everytime I went through water the brakes were gone until they were dried out.

    And no, I did not race through water puddles.
    On occasion I would be trapped in a lane on the interstate and couldn't go around the puddle.

    I much prefer the disc brakes under most circumstances.

    OkieScot
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Under anything that resembles normal day to day use, fade will not be a factor. You could cap off the rears completely under normal use and not notice much if any difference.

    Lose the rear brakes, and anything other than "NORMAL" stops can and will result in the vehicle swerving. The rear brakes help keep the rear where it belongs. Been there done that!

    Lose them when towing and it can become critical in a hurry! :sick:

    Kip
  • asaasa Posts: 359
    Maybe it's just me, but I find it easier to replace pads on disc brakes than replace shoes on drums.
  • 2005lekc2005lekc Posts: 145
    Definitely easier unless the pistons are frozen.

    OkieScot
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Definitely easier unless the pistons are frozen.

    :) Yep, and it is kind of Ironic. The frozen pistons may have been the reason the pads needed replacing. :sick:

    Kip
  • Discs are inherently less complicated, transfer heat better, and thus, resist fade better. The only reason Toyota is using drums in the rear is to trim costs.(Their official reason is that is helps hold the vehicle on a hill when parked) Anyone ever tried to clean drums caked with off-road debris? I rest my case.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Seems to me that rear disc hold a parked vehicle a little better if the front of the vehicle is up hill, than drums do!

    If given a choice I would prefer disc all around. :)

    Kip
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    Actually, that probably isn't true for most designs.

    Drum brakes offer a significant increase in contact area over a disc brake. In addition, most drum designs will assert far more contact pressure from the parking brake than anytime the foot brake is used.

    Another advantage of rear drums is the parking brake designs are far less complicated and less expensive to repair than a rear disc set-up.

    Regards,
    Dusty
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    This thing seems dead!
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Actually, that probably isn't true for most designs.

    You might wish to re-read and comprehend what I said!

    In addition, most drum designs will assert far more contact pressure from the parking brake than anytime the foot brake is used.

    Wonder why they went to all that expense to create hydraulic brakes when a simple cable design is more effective? According to your statement. :confuse:

    Kip
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    "Seems to me that rear disc hold a parked vehicle a little better if the front of the vehicle is up hill, than drums do!"

    Yeah. I read and comprehended what you wrote. Doesn't change my opinion nor the law of physics.

    As pointed out by a few other posters, disc brakes have their advantages over a drum design. However, that does not mean that a drum brake design is deficient when used within the the capabilities of the design.

    Depending on the vehicle platform, since rear brakes contribute between 15 and 20% of the vehicles braking needs, the lower manufacturing cost of the components and design is perfectly suited for most rear brake applications. For a rear braking system the cost-benifit ratio is in favor of the drum brake.

    Today, most vehicles using a rear brake system are on trucks, including those that go far beyond the 18,000 GVW limit. On a truck especially, where the vehicle can see a very wide difference in axle loading, drum brakes perform very, very well while offering a lower cost for components and reduced cost at maintenance.

    Yes, if a vehicle is driven in deep water a disc system will most assuredly perform better. At higher payloads, however, drums systems are designed for the weight rating of the vehicle and except in very rare situations perform more than adequately.

    There is a downside to rear discs on light duty pickups, besides the complexity caused by the parking brake configurations and subsequent increased cost of replacement parts. And that is an increase in maintenance. Unfortunately in actual practice, rear discs will require more repair because the design does not lend itself to the light application required by most vehicles.

    Our company has run various vehicles that came in both configurations, and we experienced far more repair on the rear disc systems caused by stuck or frozen pistons or parking brake components. Rear discs are not exercised enough to ensure adequate piston movement to prevent becoming stuck in position. On some systems, like F150s, their parking brake design for the rear disc often stops working due to corrosion.

    As to why some manufacturers use rear disc designs, well in most cases its because they know that many people think that "more is better" and that rear discs are inherently more effective.

    Regards,
    Dusty
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Drum brakes activated by cables may be the best thing since sliced bread.

    Your explanation of the whys and whats was interesting and seems reasonable.

    Despite the laws of physics and other things you mentioned,

    "Seems to me that rear disc hold a parked vehicle a little better if the front of the vehicle is up hill, than drums do!" :)

    Kip
  • I love my Sport Trac so much I've started a new Sport Trac community. Please register there and help this new fan/owner site grow:

    http://sporttracclub.21.forumer.com/

    Thanks!
  • dustykdustyk Posts: 2,926
    Most parking brake systems typically provide a holding pressure of between 200 to 400 foot pounds, depending on how the designs are executed, of course. If a vehicle actually uses the disc brake for the parking brake, the contact area is usually around sixteen square inches (thats both sides of the pads, by the way) per wheel, versus 40 to 70 on a drum system. In actual practice the holding force is often less on many rear disc designs because constant high pressure on the piston will cause the brake fluid to over come the piston seal.

    A rear drum parking brake is much more effective at holding a vehicle than a rear disc brake, by design. But in reality most rear disc braking systems utilize a rear drum for the parking brake anyways. In any system I've seen or worked on the drums and shoes are about 1/4 the size of a conventional rear drum brake. It's referred to as "drum-in-hat" and I'm having a little trouble thinking of a vehicle that doesn't use it at the moment.

    The US Department of Transportation actually specifies holding force requirements on automobile and truck manufacturers for parking brake systems, and ANSI has a test procedure for evaluating them. So in actual practice, regardless of the system, they both must meet minimum requirements.

    Dusty
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Thanks for the informative post. Most of that I did not know!
  • between the Toyota Tacoma, Chevy Colorado, and gmc canyon wich would you suggest asking for and why. Thanks
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    You want to limit your selection to the Tacoma, Frontier or Honda Ridgeline.

    Test drive a Colorado/Canyon vs the others and see why. (Poor build quality, cheap interior etc, it also has the largest turn radius of the bunch despite being the smallest truck (44ft), and the lowest tow rating, and only a 5 cylinder engine) Even if you could get 10,000 off MSRP (the 30000 4wd model) it is no deal. Its MSRP is very high too..

    I believe the Frontier has the highest tow rating and most powerful torquey engine, With the Tacoma and Ridgeline having the best interior quality.

    The Ridgeline is a nice piece but the 4wd would not be as good as the Tacoma or Frontier for off roading. The ride is much better though, almost car like. And great quality. Neat trunk to store things under the bed, however it looks kinda like a small Avalanche.

    $3000-4500 off msrp should be doable on the Frontier or Tacoma, with $5000-$6000 off MSRP for the Ridgeline. If you are looking at $23000 (4wd crew cab), then you are looking at the Frontier or Ridgeline, with the Tacoma about $1500 more. These are for moderately optioned trucks.

    Do not even think of a Colorado or Ranger(no crew cab option but still), unless someone insists on giving it to you free. This should be obvious after your inspection of the trucks.

    Happy Hunting
    --jjf

    between the Toyota Tacoma, Chevy Colorado, and gmc canyon wich would you suggest asking for and why. Thanks
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Good post! :)

    Kip
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I'd pick any of the other vehicles in this discussion before adopting the GM twins' reliability problems and cheapo materials.

    If you don't do a lot of off-roading, I'd go with a Ridgeline (they are available for well under invoice I believe). If you want to tow or do some serious off-roading, I'd go with the Frontier or Tacoma. If you need V8 power, and ONLY if you need V8 power, would I go with the Dodge Dakota - only to tow though.
  • maple2maple2 Posts: 177
    if you want to be ridiculed and constantly made fun of go ahead and get the ridgeline. very poor attempt at cracking the truck market by honda imo :sick: otherwise any of the other choices would be fine
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    Except of course for the Colorado/Canyon. Curiously when I drive in my brother's Ridgeline we've been approached twice with questions and admiration. And thats the few times i'm with him. In my trusty Frontier I'm ignored. You do want about $6000 off though.

    GM and Ford are losing billions producing 2 million trucks so trying something different probably isn't all that stupid.

    --jjf

    if you want to be ridiculed and constantly made fun of go ahead and get the ridgeline. very poor attempt at cracking the truck market by honda imo otherwise any of the other choices would be fine
This discussion has been closed.