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Midsize Pickup Comparo

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Comments

  • asaasa Posts: 359
    Right on Kip! I've read several articles that show a direct coorelation between US vehicle size and America's obesity. Big people want big vehicles.

    I love my '06 Nissan Frontier SE Crew Cab and with the 6-Speed I get 22-1/2 to 23-1/2 MPG on the highway. If Nissan had made it several inches narrower, it'd be even more perfect for a thin family like ours.

    It's been my theory too that s long as people can put gas on a charge card, it doesn't 'hurt' their finances as much as if they had to instead peel off three or four $20 bills. The average American houshold has $8500+ of credit card debt, thus hasn't done a real good job of watching costs on anything.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Isuzu Truck

    I wonder why GM or Isuzu do not offer these storage bins on US trucks, at a minimum they should offer them to commercial customers.

    image
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    asa,

    "It's been my theory too that s long as people can put gas on a charge card, it doesn't 'hurt' their finances as much as if they had to instead peel off three or four $20 bills. The average American houshold has $8500+ of credit card debt, thus hasn't done a real good job of watching costs on anything."

    I agree. I tend to spend much less when paying with cash. Odd how that works, isn't it? :blush:

    The truck mfg are simply catering to our belief that bigger is better and our "Want" of instant gratification. Five and six year financing (and sometimes longer), interest only payments, and the credit card have enabled the small Pickup to grow in size, and therefore in price, to equal the full size ones. It is not hard to spend $30K +/- on a mid or full size truck. Either, with what would have been considered "Well Equipped" 5 years ago, can be purchased for much less than $30k. But with all the latest gadgets and long term financing we "Need" the $30+K one.

    I remember paying about $3,300 for a new '73 Chevy Cheyenne P/U, "LOADED" with everything except leather. Even back then I thought I "NEEDED" all the bells and whistles.

    We feel we "Need" all the GEE WHIZ bells and whistles. And we can have them at the "same low monthly payment" as a lesser truck. All we have to do is to stretch payments out (with more interest) 12-36 months longer. :sick:

    If we had to save the money to pay cash, and unfold those bills during the purchase, we would be a lot more careful when balancing the "Needs" and "Wants" act.

    After the initial shock, $4-$5 gas will become a way of life and just another thing to complain about and add to the plastic card. And Visa will dance with Glee! :shades:

    Kip
  • I own a 2006 SLT Sport CC Dakota 4.7 and tow a boat and other loads. I also own and tow with a 2006 Nissan Xterra 4.0. The Nissan pulls just as well, and gets avg 19 MPG towing while the Dakota drops to 15 MPG. The Dakota can really haul more on the road but for everyday day driving in town, the Xterra/Frontier 4.0L gets 23 MPG. Great gas mileage for 266 HP. My 2001 Ranger SC4.0L got 19MPG on the highway, 15-16 in town. Only rated 207 hp, had horrible brakes. The Dodge is a rock solid truck for the big hauling jobs and too me a Frontier/Tacoma/Ranger/Ridgeline/Colorado would work in any other everyday situation except rock crawlin, which is a sport all to itself. Then one would have to evaluate thr truck versus needs as someone has already said. Different strokes for different folks! ;)
  • I have been watching the size increasing on our beloved small trucks and I ain't happy about it. I inherited my father's 1965 Ford F-250 Camper Special about 20 years ago. I sold it off because I didn't use enough (still had my Chevy Van) but when I did sell it, the small trucks were a fair bit smaller than it. Now the Dodge Dakota is just about the same size!
    At the recent L.A. car show, I sat in the Ford and Chevy full size trucks and was amazed. In my Dad's old truck I could reach across to the door handle and window crank on the passenger side. It was a long reach but I could do it. These new trucks had my hand waving around a good foot to a foot-and-a-half away from the door.
    And the climb up into the cabs is getting ridiculous. The old F-250 had a seat height that was perfect; just sling your keester sideways and in you went. Not now. You need oxygen and a small lunch to go up that high.
    Our "compact" trucks are definitly the size of the old trucks, so that is where my money will go when the time comes for the next P/U purchase.

    Tigger 32
  • I have heard rumors of new Diesel engines being built for Dodge by Cummins. I am hearing that there is a new 4.6 litre V-6 and a 5.6 litre V-8. The small engine is aiming for 30 mpg and if that is true, it will be a huge seller, I bet. Especially if it is offered in the Dakota.
    I have also heard that Chevy/GMC is going to have a 4.5 litre Diesel coming out although I have not heard any specs on it.
    All this is to ponder the question, "Will Nissan, Toyota, Ford, etal. answer the call and give us some good mileage Diesels in our small trucks? Heck, Mercedes has the Sprinter Van with it's 2.7 litre 5 cylinder that is doing great in the delivery van / motorhome business.
    We can only hope.

    Tigger 32
  • asaasa Posts: 359
    With diesel fuel currently selling at a price higher than premium gasoline in my (U.S.) region, I'm not as enthusiastic about the economy of a diesel truck. In the final analysis, a diesel may indeed be more economical, but I don't think MPG tells the whole story. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Diesel technology is growing at an exciting rate.
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    Diesle really begins topay off with heavy loads over long distances Esecially when putting 30000miles/yr hauling 30 or so ton loads. The repair an maintenance cost/mi can be much lower too, Putting diesels into small mid size an bigger pickups has always been with amixed result except for TORQUe..

    --JJF

    With diesel fuel currently selling at a price higher than premium gasoline in my (U.S.) region, I'm not as enthusiastic about the economy of a diesel truck. In the final analysis, a diesel may indeed be more economical, but I don't think MPG tells the whole story. It'll be interesting to see how this plays out. Diesel technology is growing at an exciting rate.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    4.5L Duramax

    Here is info. on the new Duramax. It will be manufactured in Towanda, NY. Will be available as early as 2008 for 2009 model year and no later than calendar year 2009 in the 2010 model year trucks.

    Ford will have a 4.4L V8 diesel in the F150. Bad news is Ford has already reduced it's planned production numbers for the new engine. It will be manufactured in Mexico. Expected to arrive in 2009 calendar year in 2010 model year trucks.

    Dodge has 4.2L V6 and 5.6L V8 Cummins engines in the pipeline. They are not scheduled to arrive until 2010 model year.

    An International diesel engine in the 2009 Nissan Titan has been rumored for quite some time, nothing more than a possiblity at this point. Nissan is said to have put it's 3/4 ton Titan program on hold.

    As to midsize trucks, well, don't hold your breath waiting for diesel. The only one that has even been mentioned is Honda Ridgeline with a diesel V6 in 2010.
    There was buzz in the past of Isuzu bringing it's diesel engines to be installed in Isuzu versions of the Colorado. GM Colorado/Canyon and Isuzu DMax were a joint project of Isuzu and GM and were primarily engineered by Isuzu. No modifications needed to interchange powertrains. Now the only speculation is when Isuzu will fold the consumer sales of vehicles in North America and sell only larger commercial vehicles. Isuzu's contract with GM to supply the i-series trucks and the Ascender SUV is nearly completed.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    I am also having trouble getting excited about diesels in midsize trucks or in cars.

    Spent some time over on the Jeep Liberty Diesel forum. They seem to be having real problems with the diesel engines not running well.

    One thought that comes to mind is that it is new and there are "Bugs" to work out.
    However, another thought dictates that "Bugs" should be worked out before the consumer takes over. I can understand how some problem might not rear it's ugly head until a few thousand miles are on the clock, but some of these problems seem to be there, right from the "git-go", and Jeep has no solutions as of this time.

    Mercedes has been building diesel trucks and cars successfully for a long time. As pointed out by another poster, the Sprinter is a fine example. They have also been building reliable diesel cars for many years. Diamler (SP) owns Chrysler and Mercedes. So why the problems with the Jeep Liberty?

    My understanding is that GM owns a big chunk of Isuzu. The flat nosed box trucks by Chevy appear to be built on the same assembly line as the Isuzus.
    Why not put that proven engine into a Colorado? That engine works fine in the box trucks and should do very well in a mid size pickup.

    Kip
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    My understanding is that GM owns a big chunk of Isuzu.

    Not anymore. GM sold it's stake in the past in order to raise cash.

    Toyota purchased a significant portion of Isuzu.
  • asaasa Posts: 359
    The Nissan Navara (aka the Frontier in North America) is offered with a diesel most everywhere else in the world and it too would be a time-tested, reliable engine if it ever comes to the North America. But, as you wrote about the other manufacturers, there seems to be no plans to make that happen at Nissan.
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    "Not anymore. GM sold it's stake in the past in order to raise cash.
    Toyota purchased a significant portion of Isuzu."


    Did GM sell all it's Isuzu holdings to "Toyota"? Wonder if GM hung on to anything that would be useful in the future. That diesel comes to mind.

    Kip
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    Reading about the new GM Duramax engine.
    http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/06/15/gm-announces-new-light-duty-4-5l-v-8-die- sel-for-north-america/

    Here is a Direct Quote!

    "GM Powertrain's Tonawanda engine plant opened in 1938 and has produced nearly 68 million engines. The plant covers 3.1 million square feet and employs 1,565 hourly and 260 salaried employees, with an annual payroll of $200 million."

    Seems that payroll is an "Average" of $109,500 per person yearly. Of course the Executives will make more than the line workers, but that average seems excessive.

    "The GM Powertrain Tonawanda plant management and UAW Local 774 leadership successfully negotiated a competitive operating agreement that improves operational effectiveness".

    OK, that explains it! :sick:

    Kip
  • I want to thank all of you for your input. This subject has definitely stirred up some opinions.
    I am well aware of the Toyota and Nissan small trucks with their Diesel engines. These have been a staple of the third world for decades and have been great runners. Reliable and fuel efficient for what ever time frame you look at. Why they have not been shipped over here has been a mystery to me for decades. In a Yahoo group that I'm in there is one guy in Europe that tows his small trailer with a VW "New Beetle" diesel and it does a great job, according to him.
    I am getting closer to retirement and in a few years will be setting myself up to travel with a smallish truck and travel trailer to explore the US. If I were buying it today it would be the Nissan Frontier 4x4 (4.0 gas)and some kind of folding trailer like the Trail Manor. This combo will allow me to camp almost anywhere, places that would scare a motorhome to death. After setting up camp I could then go back country exploring with the truck. Let's see a motorhome do that!
    With a sub 3 litre diesel engine (like the MB 2.7 litre in the Sprinter van) the Nissan would be fantastic!
    Just my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for letting me vent and hopefully light a fire under any of the manufacturers that watch these lists. Nudge. Nudge. Come on folks, give us a cookie!
    Tigger32
  • jfritschjfritsch Posts: 958
    In general diesels in small trucks don't have the payoff of those in larger trucks, especially in this country. Cheap small diesels are good in europe and the far east for mileage and cost. By the time you load them up with emission controls in the US the options and benefits are limited. There is a lot of work here as the rest of the world is choking or starting to choke.

    If you pull off the converters, no abs, airbags etc and put in cheaper engines you can have real cheap models for other countries. (you've seen how cheap stripper models can get here)

    Good luck
    --jjf

    I want to thank all of you for your input. This subject has definitely stirred up some opinions.
    I am well aware of the Toyota and Nissan small trucks with their Diesel engines. These have been a staple of the third world for decades and have been great runners. Reliable and fuel efficient for what ever time frame you look at. Why they have not been shipped over here has been a mystery to me for decades. In a Yahoo group that I'm in there is one guy in Europe that tows his small trailer with a VW "New Beetle" diesel and it does a great job, according to him.
    I am getting closer to retirement and in a few years will be setting myself up to travel with a smallish truck and travel trailer to explore the US. If I were buying it today it would be the Nissan Frontier 4x4 (4.0 gas)and some kind of folding trailer like the Trail Manor. This combo will allow me to camp almost anywhere, places that would scare a motorhome to death. After setting up camp I could then go back country exploring with the truck. Let's see a motorhome do that!
    With a sub 3 litre diesel engine (like the MB 2.7 litre in the Sprinter van) the Nissan would be fantastic!
    Just my thoughts on the subject. Thanks for letting me vent and hopefully light a fire under any of the manufacturers that watch these lists. Nudge. Nudge. Come on folks, give us a cookie!
    Tigger32
  • kipkkipk Posts: 1,576
    A friend uses his High Top Sprinter as a show/demo room for automotive brake re conditioning equipment. It is heavy! He says he gets in the mid 20s running close to 70. Adding a near 4K# race car/trailer will lower the mileage to just over 20 mpg. That says a lot about the little 2.7 diesel. It should do very well in a mid size Pickup or SUV.

    We are considering getting back into trailer camping! Did it for 10 years or so.

    I seriously considered a Trail Manor until my next door neighbor bought a (19/27) 2 year old used one. Very flimsy! Folding and unfolding involve a lot of latches, pulling and pushing, moving of furniture, removing the 2 storage cabinets from the walls, collapsing the bathroom walls, and lots of air leaks once up. There is virtually no storage. During the up/down procedure the inside is open to the elements as the top is being maneuvered. Would not want to do it in the rain or a heavy wind. The guy he bought it from, got a hard, fixed side camper.

    On the other hand, the "Hi-Lo" seems a lot more sturdy, better sealed and goes up/down with the push of a button or a hand crank. Stays dry inside as the top simply telescopes down over the bottom. Has decent storage and the inside doesn't need dismantling in order to close.

    We are also considering the Fiberglass "Eggs". Especially the 16 footer. Light weight, aerodynamic, decent storage and livability. Near perfect for me and the wife. Chatted with folks pulling them with all kinds of vehicles. Seems the Frontiers,Pathfinders, Tacomas and 4Runners are getting in the mid teens towing them.

    http://www.fiberglassrv.com/index.html

    Kip
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    2008 Frontier

    quote Truckin-
    All in all, the Frontier is easily one of the strongest contenders in the midsize class in my book. Though the Toyota Tacoma certainly has its fans, and is a formidable competitor in most respects, it lacks the eagerness and responsive, sporty edge that the Frontier has. Even with the Dodge Dakota offering an optional V8, and the Chevy Colorado about to, the 4.0L VQ engine provided more than adequate scoot for 95 percent of situations. However, with the introduction of the 5.6L Endurance V8 in the Pathfinder for 2008, it's no longer a matter of "if" the big thumper will fit in the Frontier, but rather "will they do it?"
    -end
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,842
    Cheap small diesels are good in europe and the far east for mileage and cost. By the time you load them up with emission controls in the US the options and benefits are limited. There is a lot of work here as the rest of the world is choking or starting to choke.

    If you pull off the converters, no abs, airbags etc and put in cheaper engines you can have real cheap models for other countries. (you've seen how cheap stripper models can get here)

    Good luck
    --jjf


    Euro IV emissions and Euro NCAP safety.

    Mazda BT-50, Toyota Hi-Lux, Isuzu DMax, Nissan Navarra all meet Euro IV emissions with their turbo-diesels and meet NCAP safety requirements.

    Dual front airbags and ABS brakes are standard for most models with some trim levels having standard side and or curtain airbags.

    There may be stripper models somewhere, however, there is one main production base (Thailand) and even models exported to South Africa have same safety equipment and emissions as those models exported to Europe.

    EU has lower emissions level requirements for C02 and higher for NOx.

    With minor differences, these trucks are as safe and as clean as those being sold in US/Canada.
  • the_big_althe_big_al Posts: 1,068
    I have driven everything except the new Fronty, Taco and Ridgeline and I have to say the I have liked the Colorado the best... Granted I am a GM fan and currently drive an S-10. By the time the S-10 went out IMO it was the best all around truck. I felt it had more power (I have always dislikes Toyota's lack of power on the previous Taco), the Ranger I have never liked - it was too bouncy and the inside was too cramped for me. I had my father-in-laws Mazda B2500 for about a week and it was worthless. Granted it wa only the 2.5 (before the 2.3), but even still I hated the inside. I could never get comfortable. My dad has an 02 Crew Cab Fronty and it too was a little low on the power side. There as well the inside was never to my tastes as far as space. The S-10 had lots of grunt from the V6 and decent mileage as long as I don't hot foot it all over the place. Granted it's quality is not that of the Taco but I have been happy with my S-10. I have driven the Colorado and was impressed with the power that it had and the space inside. Not too impressed with the interior itself, but oh well... maybe the way GM is getting better with that aspect the later ones will get better
This discussion has been closed.