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Toyota FJ Cruiser vs Jeep Wrangler

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  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Yeah I have to agree with Keats on this one, the original FJ was largely copied from the CJ. The looks are so similar, much more so than other vehicles that came later and just copied the concept of the Jeep, Toyota had to even make it look almost the same. Think about it: out of the German KubleWager (the civilian version was called the Thing), the Russian TAZ and the Land Rover, the Land Cruiser is the one that really looks like a Jeep.

    On the mechanical side of things, the FJ-40's in line six engine was not a copy of anything Jeep made, but largely a copy of the GM in line six, so much so that many of the internal components are apparently interchangeable!

    But then maybe the reason the FJ-40 is pretty good is because it was a copy of things that actually worked.

    And to those who say the FJ's are 'sooooo' hard to find, well it's true. But then there were very few sold in North America when compared to the Jeep. Furthermore, the FJ-40s had such bad rust problems that they simply dissolved in areas that salted the roads in the winter. The Rust problems on FJs makes you think Jeeps must be made from stainless steel.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    'thespyder', we can't really even get to reliability here because its been pretty well established that an FJ Cruiser is not going to be able to do what a Jeep Wranger does - especially not a Wrangler Rubicon. The FJ will never get there - its not equipped to. It's like saying my spoon is really reliable - it never gets dull, when what we really need is knife to get the job done.

    That being said Jeep reliability has especially when considering the Wranglers is not bad. The Wrangler is actually rated pretty high by most surveys for reliability and resale value. I have owned and still own several Jeeps and found them to be quite good. My 1973 J-20 has over 350 000 miles on the (V8) engine and it's never been opened up. My (V8) '82 Cherokee has over 260 000 miles on it. I have a 2 year old Rubicon that has never need anything but oil changes. Several friends have Cherokee sports with 4.0L in line sixes: One is over 450 000 miles, others are over 300 000 with no major repairs. Incidentally the 4.0L in line six is probably one of the best off-road gasoline engines ever built. For bottom end torque, long life, and reliability there is really nothing that comes close.
  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    "long life, and reliability there is really nothing that comes close."

    I'll give it to you for originality... don't think those particular words have ever been used to describe Jeeps before today.

    My jeep inline 6 had great torque... short life and no reliability...

    As for FJ, I think it will be strong off-road, seems to be well built under the body, but they will lose that plastic bumper on day one... They'll all have new metal bumpers quickly... or none at all?
  • keatskeats Posts: 412
    Man, I bet you wish you still had that vehicle. For those interested in seeing what good qaulity old FJ40's are going for, check vintageoffroad.com. They specialize in FJ40s, restoration, etc. They have some fine looking examples. The cost is a bit outrageous, but one could certainly find one cheaper.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    "As for FJ, I think it will be strong off-road"

    Compared to what Steenh? A WRX? Like I said before FJ stands for FisherPrice Jeep. Not only are the bumpers plastic but the stupid gas tank is plastic with NO skid plate. This thing is not meant for off-road from the factory. It also does not have a real skid plate protecting the very exposed aluminum transfer case.

    Now I guess you can add skid plates, a solid front axle, a real low range transfercase, take a sawzall to the roof, put an inline 6 in it for real torque, lockers all around, and some real tires but then we could do all this to a Bently too! The FJ is just simply not equipped for hard core off-road from the factory.
  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    Did I hit a nerve? Not sure I understood the "put new old in", new oil? Let's not start telling fat momma jokes now.

    I had a very bad experience with the one jeep I owned, and won't own another. I've had nearly flawless experiences with 4 different Toyotas. Of course they aren't perfect, see, we do agree on something.

    The FJ's Plastic gas tank, I doubt it's stupid, it's plastic and plastic is inanimate... also wondering what's wrong with a plastic tank? Actually does have a skid plate too, also plastic. Plastic bends and then bends back... metal just bends, Plastic won't spark when you drag it over a rock... metal will. I actually think it's a pretty decent approach. Doubt it's cheaper than metal so that's probably not why they did it.

    We also agree on the bumpers... they are a joke. Other than that, the hardware is there to play off road. I'm sure owners will be joining you whereever you go.

    4x4 Bentley? Hmmmmmm.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Ok Steenh, no mama jokes – Deal?

    But regarding the FJ’s plastic gas tank I do have a problem with that – that is if plastic is where the story ends. Plastic is a good choice from a corrosion standpoint plastic tanks never rust out. My 1982 Cherokee has a plastic tank, and Jeep started doing this in the 70’s. And I have never seen one rust out. However, a good engineering team building an off-road vehicle would not stop there. Some plastics’ properties with respect to temperature change a lot. The type of plastics used to make fuel tanks are in the thermoplastics family like polyethylene, polypropylene etc. On a very hot day the puncture resistance is significantly reduced, on a very cold day the fracture toughness is reduced. As temperatures drop thermoplastics go through what is call the glass transition temperature where it they becomes extremely brittle.

    So imagine: wheeling on a really hot day (in Death Valley) over rocks and you happen to suddenly drop down and a jagged rock digs into your unprotected plastic tank. The forward momentum of the vehicle just serves to aid in ripping a larger hole in the tank and within seconds the entire contents of the tank is now on the ground. Now not only do you have no fuel to get home but a huge safety issue with copious gasoline fumes – just one more bang of a rim on a rock or maybe two rocks grinding together as your vehicle comes to a stop and WHOOOP! FJ no longer stands for FisherPrice Jeep, but FIRE Jeep.

    Now how about the other extreme. You’re winter wheeling in Northern Alberta Canada. It’s –45 outside and your plastic tank is pretty brittle. You come down hard on a snow covered log you didn’t see. BANG! Your exposed FJ’s tank lands on the log and splits along one of the contours in the plastic. All the fuel is on the ground. Its so cold out, and with all the snow its unlikely a fire will start, but lets hope you are wheeling with a buddy, cuz otherwise you’re gonna freeze to death with no heat in your FJ – now known as a FROZEN Jeep!

    So in materials Engineering they not only taught us about the corrosion properties of thermoplastics but of mechanical properties with respect to temperature. A GOOD engineering team WOULD use a plastic fuel tank, BUT they would put a substantial metal skid plate under it for protection. Which is exactly what Jeep has been doing for almost 30 years!
  • ron41ron41 Posts: 37
    People these bumpers aren't composed of simple plastic material. These bumpers are composed of specific compounds that have similar or better resistance as your regular vehicle bumpers. I discovered this in one of my engineering classes. It's really crazy technology. Moreover the FJ Cruiser has a huge skid plate covering or protecting the engine and fuel tank. So the information that was stated in this forum about the FJ's fuel tank having a huge hole in it from hitting the boulders is amazingly an incorrect assumption!!!!!
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,297
    This thread reminded me that I had a leaking (metal) gas tank in my old '74 Jeep CJ-5 (or was it a '73?) and it was a pain to get fixed. My first canoe was a Grumman, and as soon as I demo'd a plastic canoe, I never looked back. Plastic is good stuff.

    Time to rent The Graduate perhaps? :shades:

    Steve, Host

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • tidestertidester Posts: 10,109
    Plastic bends and then bends back... metal just bends

    Metal bends permanently only if you exceed its elastic limit. :)

    tidester, host
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Man, I bet you wish you still had that vehicle.

    The neighbor in front of me has a clean CA FJ40 with no rust. I am always after him to sell it. He wants to trade for my little Kubota tractor. The prices are high when you consider I paid $2400 cash for mine brand new in 1964.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    People these bumpers aren't composed of simple plastic material.

    Is that good or bad? I see cars today being totalled with what looks like minimal damage. Is it these exotic plastics that cost an arm and a leg to replace? I want steel in my vehicles the thicker the better. I want to hammer out the dents not order a new bumper from Toyota at 10 times the cost.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Yup, I had the same problem with my old CJ-5. But fortunately Jeep was one of the first companies to get smart about that and start using a plastic tank protected by a contoured thick STEEL skid plate. If you do it right its really the best of both worlds.

    I suppose one could always build a skid plate for the FJ, but then I really hate to spend $35 000.00 on a vehicle and then have to go rebuild it just so I can use it for the hard core stuff that the Jeep would do from factory.
  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    Just curious, has jeep done anything wrong in 50 yrs?

    Your analogy holds if you puncture a metal gas tank too. Or if you run out of gas. You are stranded Right? And, I believe that there is substantial protection for the tank in the form of a plastic skid plate. Not sure you can make the case at this point that the FJ's tank is more susceptable to puncture than a jeep's. Certainly would be a case that at this point is not based on fact... just opinion.

    Regarding the plastic bumpers, the plastic side pieces on the FJ are for show only... like I said, I almost ripped one off just checking to see what it was made of. Kind of disappointing. If I were to buy one, that bumper would be the first thing to be replaced.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Everybody does a least something wrong in 50 years Steenh, however I believe that Jeep has been more dedicated to the true off-road segment than most companies over the past 50 years, including Toyota.

    About the fuel tank issue: You're right if you puncture any tank, no matter what it's made from, it will drain fuel on the ground. The key here is how likely is that to happen with different tank/skid plate configurations. A plastic skid plate is not a skid plate at all in my opinion. Nobody with a straight face can look me in the eye and call that thing they strapped to the under side of the FJ, a skid plate. It's a joke, it’s about 1/16 of an inch thick and made from the same soft plastic the tank is made from. It really offers no more protection for that tank than a paper bag over your head would from grenade shrapnel. I really had to laugh when I saw it. It's like Toyota is saying: 'its there just so we can say we put something there to protect the tank. It won't help you and it cost us next to nothing to do it, but you can feel good knowing we thought about it' :) Nice and Warm and Fuzzy oh Happy Happy Joy Joy! You know what they say; ignorance it bliss, and their betting you’re pretty ignorant.

    Steenh, the best way is still a plastic corrosion resistant tank, with a very hard shell (like steel) that will not puncture. If you hit the shell verry verry hard it might dent but it still won't puncture and the tank will be protected.

    But really, I crawled under the FJ cruiser and then under the Jeep Wrangler and the Jeep has skid plates everywhere and the Cruiser has very little to protect it from the rocks. Every Wrangler has a factory frame-rail-to-frame-rail skid plate protecting the transmission and transfercase. This means if you drop that area of the vehicle on a boulder the mechanical components don't see any impact or loading. Plus every Wrangler’s plastic fuel tank is protected with STEEL skid plate that's about 3/32 of an inch thick.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    And Steenh, as I was saying about the plastic FJ bumpers, who wants them????? You're right they would have to be ripped off and then you would have to go to ARB and spend about $1200.00 to get some decent steel ones. So Toyota is making you pay for something that you're just going to throw in the garbage anyway! The Jeep comes factory with steel bumpers so you can put the $1200.00 in your jeans and start on the hard trails today.
  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    We are going in circles... and I agree with some of what you are saying.

    I'm not a huge fan of FJ. It is OK, but needs mods to be a real competitor to the hard core off-roaders. Probably more a competitor to XTerra. I think they missed the boat when they didn't retro back a bit more and build a jeep like vehicle (maybe with a plastic skidplate... don't know). They missed what I was hoping for but I expect that future versions will be built up, I can't be the only big Toyota fan with these concerns. Then I might be in the market.

    So, you have choices... buy FJ and do some mods, wait and hope Toy changes FJ, buy jeep and deal with the crappy reliability, or buy used LC/4runner etc... and mod for the hardcore off-road.

    I'll choose the wait or buy used over jeep.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    I agree with you the FJ Cruiser is really not on the same 'trail' as the Jeep Wrangler. It's more like the XTerra and the Jeep Liberty. And I said from the beginning that I was really disappointed that Toyota didn't stay true to the original FJ when it came to off-road capability. Rather they bring out this re-skinned 4Runner and tell us how good it will be off-road and make out like it will be as good or better than the original FJ off-road. And it's nothing of the sort.

    Don't expect any big improvements on this FJ platform Steenh. The FJ's unibody is set up for independent front suspension (IFS) just as the 4Runner is. In fact, it uses the same parts. IFS is poor for articulation. Toyota isn't going to spend all the money to build one vehicle with a solid axle in front. And they aren't going to put a removable top on it either. They MIGHT (if they cared) put some decent steel skid plates on it, but I doubt they will do this either because most people that will buy the FJ will not get mud on the tires. However this potential market segment wants to own a vehicle that ‘looks’ like a real off-roader, one that looks like that original FJ, but in reality it’s mostly window dressing. Basically what you see is what you get. Some things that would make it a good Jeep off-road counterpart will just not be possible the way this platform is configured. It would cost way too much and for Toyota it makes poor business sense.

    On the other hand, Jeep’s basic platform had a convertible top and solid axles for over 60 years, through redesigns they continued with the basic physics that worked well off-road and added features to further enhance ability. Since this platform was always set up this way, for them to continue putting solid axles in the all-new 2007 wrangler is no big deal. It does not share a platform with any other Daimler Chrysler vehicle so there are no compromises. It's designed to be the best at one thing: off-road.

    As for your (bad) experience regarding the Jeep Wrangler's reliability, I can only point to the excellent reliability rating I told you about before which I found on MSN autos and other sites. I have owned many Jeeps and have several friends that have owned them and we have all had really good success with their performance and reliability. No complaints.

    If I really wanted an off-road machine I would dump the FJ and buy the 2007 Wrangler Rubicon in a heartbeat.
  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    Don't forget that Toyota has been selling LC's around the world for many years and still does today in versions that are not sold in the US. Those are much truer to the hardcore off-road segment... including solid axles and diesel engines. If they wanted to dominate Jeep, they'd be best served to just start importing what already is for sale outside the US. No design effort on Toyotas part at all.

    I don't know why they don't, but honestly have never tried to get the answer. I'm sure someone reading this board knows... and it would be nice to hear from someone else...

    I'm starting to bore myself :>
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    As I understand it, the last of the solid axle LCs were made around 1998 some time. The new 100 LC series has IFS. After reading an Australian review on the 2006 Land Cruiser 100 model I discovered it comes standard with IFS:

    http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/4_10_toy.htm

    However the FJ Cruiser is not even based on the full size LC, its based on the 4-runner which I believe has been IFS everywhere for a long, long time.

    Steenh, there are two really simple reasons why Toyota does not offer the real off-road basics like solid axles in the new FJ: 1) it would be way to expensive for them to do this on just one model. 2) The true off-road crowd is not the market they are focusing on. This vehicle is intended for the office guys and soccer moms that watch TV and see a select few people doing the extreme stuff in Jeeps and old FJ’s and then they think they would like to have a vehicle that kind of portrays that image. But at the same time they don’t want to give up the nice ride of the IFS, the very quiet ride and all that extra room. The new FJ is not really intended to do the real stuff, its just intended to portray that image by riding on the old FJ’s reputation. Kind of like a pellet gun modeled after a Colt 1911 compared to the real .45 caliber Colt government issued 1911. You can fool a lot of people with the air gun, but when push comes to shove it won’t do the same thing.

    Oh and Steenh, I can tell you really love these conversations :)
  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    Not one model on solid axle... you have to get that out of your head.

    Here are the specs on the new 78 Series... obviously not sold in US. Please note the solid front axle.

    Toyota Landcruiser 78 RV Cab Chassis Turbo Diesel Specifications

    Engine
    Bore & Stroke: 94.0mm x 100.0mm
    Displacement: 4164cc
    Compression Ratio: 18.8:1
    Fuel System: Direct injection EFI.
    Engine Block: 6 cylinders, In-line, SOHC, 4 valves per cylinder.
    Maximum Power: 122kW@3400rpm
    Max Torque: 380Nm@1400rpm
    Cylinders: 6
    Valves: 4 per cylinder

    Transmission: 5 speed manual

    Gear Ratios
    First: 4.529:1
    Second: 2.464:1
    Third: 1.490:1
    Fourth: 1.000:1
    Fifth: 0.811:1
    Reverse: 4.313:1
    Final: 4.100:1

    Suspension
    Front : Rigid live axle, leading arm, coil springs, gas dampers and anti-roll bar.
    Rear : Rigid live axle, semi-elliptic leaf springs, gas dampers.

    I would have to guess that Toyota sells at least as many solid front axle LC's as they do IFS LC's since most IFS are sold in US.

    Here are some LC sales stats I dug up.

    The Year 2000 was the 50th Anniversary of the Cruiser and total sales were over 191,000. US Sales were around 50k. Total Global production up until 2000 was 3.72 million.

    By contrast, the entire jeep brand including Grand, Liberty Cherokee and Wrangler sold 214k units in 2005. My guess is that LC is selling more units today than the entire Jeep brand, and more Solid Axle LC's than Wranglers... if they would just import them to the US.

    You are wearing me down :sick: :)
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Steenh, thanks for the specs they look good, but this is what my search found on the LC models:

    OK the 78 series LC’s production run went from 1985 to 2002, so it’s done. And yes, it looks to have had leaf springs in the back and coils up front – (strange they didn’t go to coils all around like the Grand Cherokee but anyway..)

    The 80 series had solid axles but its production run seems to have ended in 1997.

    The 90 series comes with IFS. It was one of the main new features of the model. The 100 series is also offered in IFS only, as far as I can tell.

    I can’t find any evidence that Toyota made a vehicle with front and back solid axles in 2005 or that they will for 2006. Again, this is kind of moot since the FJ Cruiser is not even based on the LC but on the 4Runner and to my knowledge it is NOT offered anywhere with a solid front axle!

    About Jeep vs. LC production, I think you’ll see a rapid jump in Jeep sales world wide in the next few years. Daimler Chrysler is now using a Steyr plant in Austria to manufacture more Jeep models for Europe. I have heard from several sources that the demand for Jeeps in Europe is quite strong and that filling the demand has been the problem in the past.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107198

    When I was in Ukraine last year I saw several Jeeps and a lot of Mercedes G-Wagons, but I didn’t see even one LC. In Russia this year, again, I saw several Wranglers, and a few Cherokees, but can’t remember seeing one LC – lots of Nivas though ;)

    The new 2007 Jeep Wrangler will also be offered, in more than 100 countries world wide. This is a major expansion for this model. It will be offered in both right and left drive with the CRD diesel as an option. The much longer (20” more in the wheel base) 4-door Unlimited version will also be offered. It will be the only current production 4-door vehicle with a removable top produced in the world. All Wranglers will be offered in the Rubicon package for the ultimate off-road equipment. I would dare say that the Rubicon Unlimited 4-door model is likely to take a bite out of Land Cruiser sales in countries where vehicles are used for work and not for status – it’s just better equipped than even most equipped LCs that were ever made.
  • lccressidalccressida Posts: 5
    My cousin in Yemen just purchased a 2006 LandCruiser FZJ-78 with dual solid axles, front and rear knob operated locking electric diffs, the I-6 240hp 286lbs ft torque gas engine, front bench seat with side rear seats, soft top (I don't like soft tops) with optional A/C wich I thought was a joke. The A/C will do you know good with a soft top lol. Ofcourse its a 5spd "with" factory skid plates that cover up the gas tank, transfer case. $28,000 USD for it.

    He's thinking of selling it and buying a 2006 fiber top 78 loaded including fender flares and the meaty Bridgestones.

    Honestly, I thought his FZJ-78 was expensive at $28gs, after noticing the Jeeps prices, whhoo wee, these companies are making alot of money.

    As for the FJ-Cruiser, 4Runner, there based on the LandCruiser Prado Chassis, the 120 series. Yes, the GX-470 is a LandCruiser Prado. Your thinking that the 4Runner and FJ are like the Nissan Pathfinder and Jeep Cherokee...unibody.

    The 4Runner, FJ-Cruiser, LandCruiser Prado, Lexus GX/LX-470, LandCruiser 100 are all body on frame vehicles. They are all amazingly capable, but to be honest, since I am an FJ owner, I wish that the front piece of junk bumper is optional lol.

    In the Middle East, MAINLY in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and UAE; the LandCruiser 100, 120, and 70 series sell 75% total. Thats 25% of Camrys, Corollas, Avalons...the rest of the lineup. In the more rugged countries such as Oman, Yemen, UAE, its 80% Toyota sales, and 20% of other makes. Jeep Wranglers don't sell because there not attractive at all.. in the eyes of the buyers there.

    And with all honesty, i've seen 1 Jeep out of 3000 cars over there, and they don't look like they fit in at all. The Jeep Cherokee over there is a Jeep Liberty. Very poor sales, and the Grand Cherokee, wich is ..well a Cherokee hardly sells.

    The new Nissan models such as the Armada, Murano, and Patrol are all picking up sales. But Ford, Dodge, GM have been terrible sellers there.

    Back to the FJ, I do think the FJ will sell alot in the Middle East, but the real offroaders wont give up their 70 series for them. The 100 series in the Middle East seen the last SFA in 2003. SFA are also ALOT cheaper than IFS.

    So to be honest, Toyota is dumb for offereing IFS with the new FJ because its costing them more to make. But the FJ is a very capable rig. And I am one of the few that will take the FJ out in the rocks, mud, sand.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    Toyota Landcruiser 78 RV Cab Chassis Turbo Diesel Specifications

    This is the vehicle I had hoped for when Toyota announced the FJ plans. Oh well, I can wait for a decent vehicle to come along. My neighbor just bought a perfect 2003 LX470 with 20k miles for 30 grand. Some fool wanting an economy car probably. Now is the time to buy the big SUVs while folks are in a gas panic.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,053
    My cousin in Yemen just purchased a 2006 LandCruiser FZJ-78 with dual solid axles

    Would the diesel cost more or less there?
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,297
    2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser: Tonka truck for real life (The Driving Woman)

    Steve, Host

    Moderator
    Minivan fan. Feel free to message or email me - stever@edmunds.com.

  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    Thank you for pitching in... nice to have someone with first hand knowledge.

    Will you be replacing the bumper? And, what's your opinion of the underbody protection... vs. say, a wrangler? Last time I drove a wrangler was a rental on St John. Had 30k miles on it. Rattled like a can of bolts... probably that tough skid plate getting ready to fall off?

    In looking at the data on worldwide LC sales, one thing jumped out. No where did they mention Jeep as a competitor. Lot's of references to Nissan Patrol... none mentioned jeep. Wonder why? (Actually I don't... I know why)
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Ok nice to hear about someone who actually has first hand knowledge of a 2006 Toy being sold with solid axles. I don’t know why it was so hard to find any info referencing it on the net though. That all being said, a full size LC with solid axles and diesel powered would be nice to own too.

    As far as Jeeps being sold around the world goes though, I have been to eastern Europe a few times and have seen almost nothing with a Toyota badge on it. When I was in Russia I rode in one cab that was a Toyota Corolla and that’s pretty well the only Toyota I saw there. But I saw several Jeeps.

    I think this new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited will really further the expansion of Jeep since it will be offered with the diesel (first time), 4-door convertible (first time), air locking front and back dana 44 solid axles, 66:1.0 crawl ratio, 6-speed tans, electronically disconnecting sway bar (first time), and a standard full skid plate compliment. It really is an impressive package that offers significantly more than the competition. I hear the RTI (ramp travel index) for the new wrangler is very impressive too, somewhere between 650 and 700!
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    The FJ is just not intended as a serious hard core off-roader, its more of a soft roader. And I think the reason that Toyota does not market solid axles in North America is because the SUV market here mostly demands pavement rollers, with a nice quiet ride, A/C, soft seats, DVD entertainment etc. It’s for CEOs to impress their peers, soccer moms with too much money and the family man going on vacation with 2 kids. These people don’t go off-road except by accident when they can’t control their SUV on a corner! Furthermore, the automotive journalists (bless their pea-sized brains) complain that things like solid axles are ‘old technology’ regardless of if they do the best job or not! Moreover, they miss interpret or neglect to acknowledge what the original purpose of an SUV really was. So companies trying to make a real off-road rig also get berated in the North American auto media. Toyota probably looks at all this and says its just not worth it – shoot for the middle of the road and cater to the masses for the most profit.

    In actuality, the North American automotive consumer is pretty screwed up. They buy SUVs when they should buy cars or minivans. Most of them don’t know how to safely operate a 4x4 and as a result they end up flipping it over because thy think they can jump in and corner it like a Ferrari. Then they blame the manufacturer and put pressure the maker to make them safer and more stable. This is another reason why you end up with SUVs that have 6 inches of ground clearance, IFS, with approach and departure angles less than 20 degrees.

    Ford, GM, and all the import makers, have fallen victim to the market pressures of the masses and have ceased to produce any true off-road vehicles in North America. Jeep is the last one to offer a true hard core off-road machine in North America. But with the exception of the Wrangler, even all their other models have been watered down to some lame excuse for an off-road vehicle. In Canada and the USA its all about less responsibility and more image, more bling and less of the real thing. Vehicles like the Honda CR-V and Toyota Rav-4. should not even exist. There is really no point to them at all. They are completely useless off-road and their on pavement performance manners are among the worst out there.
  • xthecatxthecat Posts: 30
    "I think this new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited will really further the expansion of Jeep since it will be offered with the diesel (first time)",

    Where did you hear that the 2007 will have a "diesel" option which will be sold in the USA and Canada??
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