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Toyota FJ Cruiser vs Jeep Wrangler

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  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    Not one model on solid axle... you have to get that out of your head.

    Here are the specs on the new 78 Series... obviously not sold in US. Please note the solid front axle.

    Toyota Landcruiser 78 RV Cab Chassis Turbo Diesel Specifications

    Engine
    Bore & Stroke: 94.0mm x 100.0mm
    Displacement: 4164cc
    Compression Ratio: 18.8:1
    Fuel System: Direct injection EFI.
    Engine Block: 6 cylinders, In-line, SOHC, 4 valves per cylinder.
    Maximum Power: 122kW@3400rpm
    Max Torque: 380Nm@1400rpm
    Cylinders: 6
    Valves: 4 per cylinder

    Transmission: 5 speed manual

    Gear Ratios
    First: 4.529:1
    Second: 2.464:1
    Third: 1.490:1
    Fourth: 1.000:1
    Fifth: 0.811:1
    Reverse: 4.313:1
    Final: 4.100:1

    Suspension
    Front : Rigid live axle, leading arm, coil springs, gas dampers and anti-roll bar.
    Rear : Rigid live axle, semi-elliptic leaf springs, gas dampers.

    I would have to guess that Toyota sells at least as many solid front axle LC's as they do IFS LC's since most IFS are sold in US.

    Here are some LC sales stats I dug up.

    The Year 2000 was the 50th Anniversary of the Cruiser and total sales were over 191,000. US Sales were around 50k. Total Global production up until 2000 was 3.72 million.

    By contrast, the entire jeep brand including Grand, Liberty Cherokee and Wrangler sold 214k units in 2005. My guess is that LC is selling more units today than the entire Jeep brand, and more Solid Axle LC's than Wranglers... if they would just import them to the US.

    You are wearing me down :sick: :)
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Steenh, thanks for the specs they look good, but this is what my search found on the LC models:

    OK the 78 series LC’s production run went from 1985 to 2002, so it’s done. And yes, it looks to have had leaf springs in the back and coils up front – (strange they didn’t go to coils all around like the Grand Cherokee but anyway..)

    The 80 series had solid axles but its production run seems to have ended in 1997.

    The 90 series comes with IFS. It was one of the main new features of the model. The 100 series is also offered in IFS only, as far as I can tell.

    I can’t find any evidence that Toyota made a vehicle with front and back solid axles in 2005 or that they will for 2006. Again, this is kind of moot since the FJ Cruiser is not even based on the LC but on the 4Runner and to my knowledge it is NOT offered anywhere with a solid front axle!

    About Jeep vs. LC production, I think you’ll see a rapid jump in Jeep sales world wide in the next few years. Daimler Chrysler is now using a Steyr plant in Austria to manufacture more Jeep models for Europe. I have heard from several sources that the demand for Jeeps in Europe is quite strong and that filling the demand has been the problem in the past.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=107198

    When I was in Ukraine last year I saw several Jeeps and a lot of Mercedes G-Wagons, but I didn’t see even one LC. In Russia this year, again, I saw several Wranglers, and a few Cherokees, but can’t remember seeing one LC – lots of Nivas though ;)

    The new 2007 Jeep Wrangler will also be offered, in more than 100 countries world wide. This is a major expansion for this model. It will be offered in both right and left drive with the CRD diesel as an option. The much longer (20” more in the wheel base) 4-door Unlimited version will also be offered. It will be the only current production 4-door vehicle with a removable top produced in the world. All Wranglers will be offered in the Rubicon package for the ultimate off-road equipment. I would dare say that the Rubicon Unlimited 4-door model is likely to take a bite out of Land Cruiser sales in countries where vehicles are used for work and not for status – it’s just better equipped than even most equipped LCs that were ever made.
  • lccressidalccressida Posts: 5
    My cousin in Yemen just purchased a 2006 LandCruiser FZJ-78 with dual solid axles, front and rear knob operated locking electric diffs, the I-6 240hp 286lbs ft torque gas engine, front bench seat with side rear seats, soft top (I don't like soft tops) with optional A/C wich I thought was a joke. The A/C will do you know good with a soft top lol. Ofcourse its a 5spd "with" factory skid plates that cover up the gas tank, transfer case. $28,000 USD for it.

    He's thinking of selling it and buying a 2006 fiber top 78 loaded including fender flares and the meaty Bridgestones.

    Honestly, I thought his FZJ-78 was expensive at $28gs, after noticing the Jeeps prices, whhoo wee, these companies are making alot of money.

    As for the FJ-Cruiser, 4Runner, there based on the LandCruiser Prado Chassis, the 120 series. Yes, the GX-470 is a LandCruiser Prado. Your thinking that the 4Runner and FJ are like the Nissan Pathfinder and Jeep Cherokee...unibody.

    The 4Runner, FJ-Cruiser, LandCruiser Prado, Lexus GX/LX-470, LandCruiser 100 are all body on frame vehicles. They are all amazingly capable, but to be honest, since I am an FJ owner, I wish that the front piece of junk bumper is optional lol.

    In the Middle East, MAINLY in Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Oman, and UAE; the LandCruiser 100, 120, and 70 series sell 75% total. Thats 25% of Camrys, Corollas, Avalons...the rest of the lineup. In the more rugged countries such as Oman, Yemen, UAE, its 80% Toyota sales, and 20% of other makes. Jeep Wranglers don't sell because there not attractive at all.. in the eyes of the buyers there.

    And with all honesty, i've seen 1 Jeep out of 3000 cars over there, and they don't look like they fit in at all. The Jeep Cherokee over there is a Jeep Liberty. Very poor sales, and the Grand Cherokee, wich is ..well a Cherokee hardly sells.

    The new Nissan models such as the Armada, Murano, and Patrol are all picking up sales. But Ford, Dodge, GM have been terrible sellers there.

    Back to the FJ, I do think the FJ will sell alot in the Middle East, but the real offroaders wont give up their 70 series for them. The 100 series in the Middle East seen the last SFA in 2003. SFA are also ALOT cheaper than IFS.

    So to be honest, Toyota is dumb for offereing IFS with the new FJ because its costing them more to make. But the FJ is a very capable rig. And I am one of the few that will take the FJ out in the rocks, mud, sand.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    Toyota Landcruiser 78 RV Cab Chassis Turbo Diesel Specifications

    This is the vehicle I had hoped for when Toyota announced the FJ plans. Oh well, I can wait for a decent vehicle to come along. My neighbor just bought a perfect 2003 LX470 with 20k miles for 30 grand. Some fool wanting an economy car probably. Now is the time to buy the big SUVs while folks are in a gas panic.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    My cousin in Yemen just purchased a 2006 LandCruiser FZJ-78 with dual solid axles

    Would the diesel cost more or less there?
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,971
    2007 Toyota FJ Cruiser: Tonka truck for real life (The Driving Woman)

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  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    Thank you for pitching in... nice to have someone with first hand knowledge.

    Will you be replacing the bumper? And, what's your opinion of the underbody protection... vs. say, a wrangler? Last time I drove a wrangler was a rental on St John. Had 30k miles on it. Rattled like a can of bolts... probably that tough skid plate getting ready to fall off?

    In looking at the data on worldwide LC sales, one thing jumped out. No where did they mention Jeep as a competitor. Lot's of references to Nissan Patrol... none mentioned jeep. Wonder why? (Actually I don't... I know why)
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Ok nice to hear about someone who actually has first hand knowledge of a 2006 Toy being sold with solid axles. I don’t know why it was so hard to find any info referencing it on the net though. That all being said, a full size LC with solid axles and diesel powered would be nice to own too.

    As far as Jeeps being sold around the world goes though, I have been to eastern Europe a few times and have seen almost nothing with a Toyota badge on it. When I was in Russia I rode in one cab that was a Toyota Corolla and that’s pretty well the only Toyota I saw there. But I saw several Jeeps.

    I think this new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited will really further the expansion of Jeep since it will be offered with the diesel (first time), 4-door convertible (first time), air locking front and back dana 44 solid axles, 66:1.0 crawl ratio, 6-speed tans, electronically disconnecting sway bar (first time), and a standard full skid plate compliment. It really is an impressive package that offers significantly more than the competition. I hear the RTI (ramp travel index) for the new wrangler is very impressive too, somewhere between 650 and 700!
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    The FJ is just not intended as a serious hard core off-roader, its more of a soft roader. And I think the reason that Toyota does not market solid axles in North America is because the SUV market here mostly demands pavement rollers, with a nice quiet ride, A/C, soft seats, DVD entertainment etc. It’s for CEOs to impress their peers, soccer moms with too much money and the family man going on vacation with 2 kids. These people don’t go off-road except by accident when they can’t control their SUV on a corner! Furthermore, the automotive journalists (bless their pea-sized brains) complain that things like solid axles are ‘old technology’ regardless of if they do the best job or not! Moreover, they miss interpret or neglect to acknowledge what the original purpose of an SUV really was. So companies trying to make a real off-road rig also get berated in the North American auto media. Toyota probably looks at all this and says its just not worth it – shoot for the middle of the road and cater to the masses for the most profit.

    In actuality, the North American automotive consumer is pretty screwed up. They buy SUVs when they should buy cars or minivans. Most of them don’t know how to safely operate a 4x4 and as a result they end up flipping it over because thy think they can jump in and corner it like a Ferrari. Then they blame the manufacturer and put pressure the maker to make them safer and more stable. This is another reason why you end up with SUVs that have 6 inches of ground clearance, IFS, with approach and departure angles less than 20 degrees.

    Ford, GM, and all the import makers, have fallen victim to the market pressures of the masses and have ceased to produce any true off-road vehicles in North America. Jeep is the last one to offer a true hard core off-road machine in North America. But with the exception of the Wrangler, even all their other models have been watered down to some lame excuse for an off-road vehicle. In Canada and the USA its all about less responsibility and more image, more bling and less of the real thing. Vehicles like the Honda CR-V and Toyota Rav-4. should not even exist. There is really no point to them at all. They are completely useless off-road and their on pavement performance manners are among the worst out there.
  • xthecatxthecat Posts: 30
    "I think this new Jeep Wrangler Unlimited will really further the expansion of Jeep since it will be offered with the diesel (first time)",

    Where did you hear that the 2007 will have a "diesel" option which will be sold in the USA and Canada??
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Actually I didn't say in North America. I said the 2007 Wrangler will further the expansion of the Jeep. Expansion meaning in countries other than North America(s). Unfortunately North America is the only place that will not get the diesel. However, I think domestic the demand for it is so strong that Jeep will roll over for us and start offering it in the next year or two.

    If there is one thing that Jeep has shown us its that they are willing to dedicate at least one model to the nich hard core off-road market here in Canada and the USA.
  • xthecatxthecat Posts: 30
    Hope your right on the Diesel coming, it's the only thing holding me back from making it a 2nd car. If they do eventualy put a diesel in it would it be the same as in the Liberty.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Yeah, a diesel would be really nice in a wrangler. I have to say that the only thing that really ticks me off about the new 2007 Wrangler is that stupid v6 they put in it. I hate all V6 engines at the best of times, including the one in the new FJ. In my opinion a V6 is a poor compromise. Sure it’s a more compact shape, but they don’t naturally run as smooth as an I6, they have way less torque off idle and the bottom end is way, way weaker.

    I think if I couldn’t get the new Wrangler with a diesel I’d have to rip that V6 out, throw it in the trash, and bolt a 4.0L I6 in.
  • lccressidalccressida Posts: 5
    Actually, the 14b-t is more expensive than the I-6. And even more awkward to me is the diesel comes standard with locking diffs operated via floor levers, and electric lockers are optional.. The winch is operated if I remember correctly via lever on the ground right by the transfercase.

    I remember somebody was showing off his LC-78 diesel with fiber top and when he engaged the winch, he used the throttle to control the speed of the spooling. I don't remember if theres a winch option for the gas version. But the ride is very nice compared to the older LC-70 series. Handling is typical pushrod steering. Sloppy, but hey, thats what sports cars are for.

    The diesel in the LC-70series with the turbo is very quick on its feet but it kinda fades away after 4000rpm. Theres two leds on the dash, red and green. Green = spooling healthy and red = maxed out.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    Yeah, it really is too bad that Toyota does not see fit to offer some of the better off-road options they have to North America. If they offered some of this stuff on the new FJ I wouldn't really have much of a beef. However, as I have said, the FJ's intended market is for 'image people' showing off their bling. It's really a shame.
  • chiefjojochiefjojo Posts: 39
    It's more like the XTerra and the Jeep Liberty.

    I'd say more like XTerra, Hummer H3, and 07 Wrangler Unlimited 4dr. The Liberty is not in the same league.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,850
    I'd say more like XTerra, Hummer H3, and 07 Wrangler Unlimited 4dr. The Liberty is not in the same league.

    Edmund's compares the FJ to the Liberty and also the Honda Element. The Wrangler would be a different category. Toyota has put a lot of effort in off road publications pertaining to the FJ. It will be interesting to see how it is accepted and how it stacks up in off road competition. If it wins a couple hill climbs at Glamis or Buttercup it will be accepted by the off road fraternity. Toyota had the FJ out to Glamis and did some testing and photo shoots. They must be interested in selling to the segment that they lost years ago.
  • fourx4everfourx4ever Posts: 169
    I agree. But you must remember that even a chevette can be made to dominate the hill climbs given enough money and work poured into it. To really mean anything the FJ has to stack up in completely stock factory form - many would argue that even includes stock tires. I don't think it will even come close to a stock Wrangler never mind a Wrangler Rubicon and Toyota knows this. However, they are hoping that all the fancy commercials (they probably paid George Lucas to make) of it diving into the mud and going over boulders will convince people and give it a tough image. And real capability won't matter anyway, because 99.99% of the FJ Cruisers will never leave the tarmac, so people won't really know for sure how their FJ really performs! But the commercials will give the 'image' that Toyota needs to sell to those who need an image prop. My prediction is that in the first two years Toyota won’t be able to make enough of them to fill the demand. And like any novelty vehicle, such as Chrysler’s PT Cruiser, after that, FJ sales will drop like a stone.
  • lccressidalccressida Posts: 5
    This thing is incredible offroad. Rear suspension articulation is really nice. This may not be as capable as the LC-70, but this thing does what the advertisements say. Although, the width is alil to worry about. But its a very capable offroader. VERY Capable. I'm just surprised how good this thing can claw up different terrain.
  • steenhsteenh Posts: 103
    I haven't seen a single commercial for FJ other than the generic Toyota commercial with it sitting on the car carrier?

    I'm not the least surprised by the off-road ability. Take a look at some of the videos on the Toyota FJ Trail Rides site... pretty impressive! They should use those in some adds.

    Hey 4 X 4... I guess a couple of FJ's are actually going off road and impressing people? Surprised?
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