GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda...Who will sell you your next car?

au94

I believe you are correct carlisimo.

It's hard for most of us here to understand that for some a car is just a car. Used only for getting from point A to point B and that once a year trip to Grandma's with the kids. They are not so concerned with hp/liter, slalom numbers, size of the sway bar etc.

Their decision making process is not as complicated as ours when it comes to automotive purchases. They are focused on value and relaibility first, which with even the slightest bit of research will lead one to the Camcords of the world. Of course there are a few "rebels" who might not toe the line and end up with an Altima or God forbid, a domestic product. But the bottom line is this is normal. They are not lemmings or ignorant, they just have different priorities. One of these individuals might spend weeks researching their next computer purchase. Me? I'll buy whats on sale at Best Buy because for me a home computer is just a device to read e mail and surf the internet.

dieselone

Popularity is driven by the media and company propoganda machine. Toyota happens to specialize in this area, and are super successful because they have a great marketing team that are also the best hypnotizers.

So it's the media's fault the Ford Taurus lost its best selling status several years ago. Interesting.

I would have never have thought the media was responsible for Ford & GM building cars that lack the competition in design, performance, and refinement.

BTW, I grew up in a Ford family. My dad still has a Ford Taurus that he likes. I grew up believing Ford & GM were better than Honda and Toyota. The media didn't change my mind, but the POS vehicles I have bought from Ford and GM during the past 10 years sure have.

My wifes 06 Ford 500 isn't changing my opinions either.

rockylee

You were exactly like me when I was deciding on a TV purchase.
Exactly the same with Hoyota's camcordolla. :surprise:

Rocky

dieselone

link KBB

Hmm, the most researched vehicles according to KBB and many other automotive resources show that the foreign makes are the most researched vehicles. So maybe the GM buyers are the lemmings you are talking about.

A friend of mine who sold Chevy's a few years ago told me it was well known the GM vehicles were the least researched vehicles among all manufactures and he showed me the article in Automotive News to back it up.

anythngbutgm

"Hyundai earned its reputation with some facts, namely a very bad car that screwed a lot of people. So of course, a smart consumer is going to be wary before rolling the dice by going with another one of their products, particularly one who probably doesn't have a lot of money to spend on a car in the first place."

A very bad car that was out from 86' to 89', 3 years. Amplify this scenario by about oh I don't know... 10 times. Sounds like a familiar scenario from our friends in Michigan.

I've owned 8 Honda products over my last 8 purchases. Every single one has been excellent. My only "perception" is there is no reason to stray from what I know. Nobody needs to convince me that they are the best cars to fit my needs. I have a sneaking suspicion that there are other owners like me out there who aren't just playing foolish...

rockylee

Dude really. That's a bad comparison. When was the last time ford put any money into the Taurus ???? We both know the answer.

I would have never have thought the media was responsible for Ford & GM building cars that lack the competition in design, performance, and refinement.

I never knew ALL of GM, Fords, cars lacked the competition in design, performance, refinement. I guess you left Chrysler out of there for somereason or are they also included. :P

dieselone, you know I gotta mess with you little.
Question ? What's wrong with the wifes 500 ????
The only problem I see wrong would have would be the low horsepower. :confuse:

Rocky

carlisimo

"Let me ask you this, if you heard one bad story but 10 good ones will you still say "no thanks"?

Or what if that one bad story is from someone with no experience with it?

Or what if the bad story is from 25 years ago?"

Question 1: Yeah, a 9% failure rate is too high

Question 2: If they have no experience with it, they can't have a bad story, can they? But no, I do need a bad story to be a first hand account that sounds trustworthy.

Question 3: 25 years is way too long. A bad story 5 years ago isn't a big deal either, but a reputation for poor quality 5 years ago is a turn-off.

The thing with buying stuff is that you don't have to be forgiving. There's almost always someone better. And if I have no feelings towards what I'm buying, then quality and reliability are everything.

Your questions were obviously referring to domestics, and that made me think... if I felt speakers were a matter of pride, I'd be more likely to look at where they were made, what kind of labor was used to make them, etc. But when you're buying something just because you need it, and it's kind of a chore to buy and you just want to get it over with, it's a lot easier to not think about any non-functional aspect of the purchase.

Come to think of it, though many no-name speaker brands make highly stylized speakers, all that styling isn't really affecting my decision (even if I like it).

socala4

I would have never have thought the media was responsible for Ford & GM building cars that lack the competition in design, performance, and refinement.

Actually, it's a well-known fact that Consumer Reports has sabotaged the entire GM engineering team, and has programmed the minds of most of the CR readership, to make sure that it gets the results that it wants.

Don't underestimate the power of the powerful and patented Mind Control Chip (which is manufactured in Japan by non-union labor, of course.) Without them, we'd all know that Cobalts are simply the best compact car that the world has to offer.

rockylee

I owned a Acura TL, and yes it was a very nice car. It's interior isn't "that much better" than a domestic built today. :shades:

Rocky

anythngbutgm

YOur opinion Rock. I think the TL interior is excellent. That along with all my Accords are top notch in my opinion. Nobody had to convince me of it, that's for sure.

rockylee

which is manufactured in Japan by non-union labor, of course.)

Once again, Japanese auto plants in Japan are unionized.

- I never read anyone saying the Cobalt was the "best" compact car. That would probably go to the Mazda 3.

Rocky

rockylee

I never had "the problems" others had. The aluminum trim was soft and was prone to denting. Well I baby my TL and that never happened. Yes the TL is the King of FWD cars and it has alot of those gadgets I like and is the main reason, but not only reason I wanted one. Now I can only hope the next CTS and G8 will be as nice as the new launches GM is putting out now. :shades:

Rocky

varmint

Can't keep pace with this thread.

Baggs - Congrats (prematurely) on the Stang. You've been talking about that car for quite a while.

Rocky - (OT) Read this.

Others - Reliability has become a serious consideration for buyers because the domestics made it an issue. By failing to keep pace with the competition for nearly 20 years, they created a gaping hole in their image.

Today, the differences in reliability and quality may not be enormous and they probably don't have a significant impact on ownership. (Resale is a different matter.) But we've been trained to pay attention to it because of how poorly the domestics performed.

dieselone

Rock,

Regarding the 500, the Duratech 3.0l is not smooth at all. Powertrain refinement is very high on my priority list and that is where the 500 fails. I like the CVT, but the duratec needs a makeover. While overall the 500 makes a fine company car, there is nothing about it to make me buy it over an Accord or Camry other than room (which is impressive). The chasis feels rigid, but it's still lacking in the details, some of the interior plastics and switch gear look and feel overly cheap. I will say it's an improvement over Ford's previous cars, but I don't see evidence that they will be stealing sales from Toyota or Honda, particularly with the new Camry coming soon.

I never knew ALL of GM, Fords, cars lacked the competition in design, performance, refinement. I guess you left Chrysler out of there for some reason or are they also included.

I left Chryler out cause I haven't sampled any of their product in a long time to make a comment. The 300c does look good to me and I'm sure it'd be a hoot to drive.

The fact remains (enlighten me if I'm wrong) GMs main stream cars lack the performance and particularly the refinement of a Honda, Toyota, and maybe even Hyundai. The Malibu seems lost, nothing inspiring about this car. The G6 seems better, but nothing about it looks class leading to me and 6speed Accord Ex V6 will still outperform a G6 GTP and get better gas mileage. The new Impala looks better and certainly has a better interior, but even with the 3.9 it won't match the handling, acceleration, and fuel economy of a v6 Camry or Accord. Not to mention powertrain smoothness which I value the most. I see GMs current lineup keeping those who like GM vehicles happy, but I don't see where they will gain much market share w/o selling on price.

I currently don't own a foreign car, but when I get to drive my MIL's 05 Camry XLE v6 or my friends 03 Accord Ex v6, they always make me say "wow" this is a nice car. Not so much on how they look, but how they feel when behind the wheel.

rockylee

Great article. $10,000 bonus with no (define benefit) pension, no healthcare insurance when he/she retires, etc.

I guess it's better than nothing. I'd however given a choice would rather have the "overall benefits" the Big 3 workers have.

Rocky

rockylee

The 500 is relatively inexpensive right ? So couldn't one expect it might not have Lincoln quality guages ?
Well if those camcords make you go "wow" then why aren't you driving one ?????

Rocky

lemko

When I mean "high-bucks" I'm talking like $70K+. The Cadillac DeVille/DTS is somewhere from the low $40K and doesn't break $60K. North of $60K is where the LS430 takes off and is a bargain compared to the Mercedes S-Class.

rockylee

Agree, but the new LS is gettting at S-Class price Levels which still makes the STS the better buy

Rocky

lemko

I saw the 2007 Camry at the Philly Auto Show last week. The exterior styling is gruesome. It looks like an unlicensed plastic surgeon mutilated an Avalon. The interior was nice, but not significantly nicer than any other domestic or foreign car. The controls were kind of weird. They reminded me of the ones on my mother's circa 1965 Kenmore washing machine.

dieselone

Rock,

Just so you don't think I'm a complete GM basher, the upcoming Saturn Aura does have my attention. On paper it looks like a winner to me. Decent chasis, a good engine not slapped to a 4speed auto and looks good inside and out.

My wifes job maybe changing for about 6-9 months were she'll lose her company car. If this happens, I'll be looking for a midsize sedan for her to drive for that period, then I plan on keeping it for myself to drive, and using the Suburban for towing and vacation duty only. I'd prefer to buy something used, but the Aura is on my list to check out, but I'm guessing it won't be out in time. The other domestic on my short list is a Ford Fusion. I'll have to see if VVT has improved the Duratec enough for me to put up with.

lemko

It is nice! I heard a rumor that it was supposed to have been the next Oldsmobile Alero.

varmint

Read more than the title. Take a look at the wages.

dieselone

The 500 is relatively inexpensive right ? So couldn't one expect it might not have Lincoln quality guages ?
Well if those camcords make you go "wow" then why aren't you driving one ?????

I need the Suburban to tow our boat and the wife has a company car. Plus, just cause I like them doesn't mean I'll buy one. I would rather buy a domestic if I can find one I like for a price I'm willing to spend. Until I bought the Suburban, I tended to buy vehicles I don't see everyday. With the CamCords, if you don't memorize your license plate number, you might try to unlock the wrong one.

Yes, the 500 is relative inexpensive. Overall I think it's a nice car, not something I would buy, but I certainly wouldn't think someone is a fool for buying one. The rear seat leg room and trunk are simply impressive. That's why my wife picked it for her company car. She had the choice of an '06 Impala and GP. She like the improved interior of the Impala but was more impressed with the room of the 500. Plus, she had an 01 Impala that neither of us liked at all. The GP is simply horrible as far as interior space and design, so it was ruled out in about 2 seconds.

dieselone

I saw the 2007 Camry at the Philly Auto Show last week. The exterior styling is gruesome. It looks like an unlicensed plastic surgeon mutilated an Avalon. The interior was nice, but not significantly nicer than any other domestic or foreign car. The controls were kind of weird. They reminded me of the ones on my mother's circa 1965 Kenmore washing machine.

Lemko, no offense, but you like late 80's Fleetwood's, so I know that our tastes are completely different. I spent a lot of time behind the wheel of a '92 Buick Roadmaster my Grandpa bought new. That thing was horrible, IMO. Made my dad's '92 CrownVic feel like a sports car. So obviously we have different ideas on what the ideal car is, thus we have choices.

That being said I'll have to wait and see an evaluate the 07 Camry for myself.

carlisimo

The Aura might have the same problem as the Mazda6. Some people seem to think it's too small.

lemko

He had a 1992 Roadmaster? Your grandfather has excellent taste in cars! Too bad he didn't wait until 1994-96 to get the Roadmaster with the LT-1 derived engine!

rockylee

I couldn't find wages (per-hour) anywhere in that article. Am I blinde ???

Rocky

rockylee

Aura will have GM's first 6 speed auto for a FWD car.

Rocky

rockylee

Isn't it about the same size as a GP or TL ????

Rocky

dieselone

Lemko,

My grandpa always loved Buicks and that's pretty much what he always bought except for an '82 Olds Delta 88, a '87 Caprice Classic Brougham LS (nice car back then). He finally gave into the idea that FWD was OK when he bought a '97 Park Ave followed by a '00 Park Ave. Ironically neither of these cars held up as well as the Roadmaster or Caprice. Lots of electrical and engine problems on both of his Park Aves.

While the LT1 in the later model Roadmasters would have remedied the throttle bodied 5.7's lack of performance in his '92, I just don't like the isolated, numb steering that those cars have, though grandpa just loved them.

He gave me my first car a 1975 Buick Regal, which he saved for me until I got my drivers license.

carlisimo

Dunno, but it's a rebadged Opel Vectra, so it's a European midsized car. Other examples of "European midsized" include the Mazda6, TSX, and Contour.

rockylee

My first car was a used white on tan leather 1992 Bonneville SSEi supercharged. Man I was in La La land at 16. I'll never forget that special day and it had a cell phone in it. I thought I was pimpin'

Grandpa wanted me to have a safe car to get back n' forth from school in. It was pretty fast and was probably the best car I ever owned in the the snow.

Rocky

rockylee

yes it is a rebadged opel Vectra. I however like the saturn styling better.

Rocky

snakeweasel

Resale is a different matter.

I always say that resale value should be a non issue with most people because:

1.) The longer you keep a car the less that is an issue.

2.) The higher resale value usually comes at the cost of paying more up front. A car that has a $2,000 higher resale value isn't that great if it cost $2,500 more to begin with.

3.) A higher resale value is of little value if its in a car you don't like.

varmint

"Sean McAlinden, chief economist at the Center for Automotive Research in Ann Arbor, said the steep bonuses offered by Toyota and Honda will add enough to their hourly pay of about $24 to essentially match wages at Detroit automakers, which hover at a base of about $26 for an assembly worker."

Detroit News

E-mail me if you have questions. This isn't the thread for this topic.

varmint

What you and I think should be a non-issue does not stop people from considering it.

If people thought long and hard about the initial cost versus the long-term value, they might agree with you. But they don't. They go to trade in their Ford/Chevy/Dodge and find out it ain't worth squat. End of the thinking. Then they buy something else.

snakeweasel

Question 1: Yeah, a 9% failure rate is too high

It really doesn't equate with a 9% failure rate. People are more likely to mention something bad than something good. The one complaint may be the only complaint out of 100,000 opinions.

Question 2: If they have no experience with it, they can't have a bad story, can they?

Actually it happens all the time. People all the time talk about how bad a certain thing is even though they never had used one. Just going by hearsay.

Your questions were obviously referring to domestics,

No I was thinking something else, but asking in a generic sense.

snakeweasel

Question ? What's wrong with the wifes 500 ????
The only problem I see wrong would have would be the low horsepower

In reality I don't see that as much of a problem with the 500 unless you want to race to the next stop light.

rockylee

Ok my bad. I overlooked it when I was skimming through the article.

lemko

Did your SSEi have the Heads-Up Display? I thought that was really cool at the time. A lady co-worker had an SSEi at the time. It looked really awesome at night with the dashboard illuminated.

rockylee

True. However I sometimes want to "point and shoot" through traffic. Okay I'm a leadfoot and want a lil' power.

Rocky

rockylee

Lemko it had HUD. Back in 92' though it didn't have heated seats, but did have 14 diff. adjustable pwr lumbar seats which were new. I also believe it was MT car of the year too.

It also had a Bose CD, moonroof, 16 in ZR rubber gold flake rims, air compressor, auto dim mirror, adjustable transmission sport and normal. electronic climate, boost guage for supercharger It was a cool car for a 16 yr. old.

Rocky

snakeweasel

What you and I think should be a non-issue does not stop people from considering it.

Then the question becomes are we wrong in thinking it is a non issue or are the people who strongly consider it wrong?

I look at it this way, if it is a car you want and/or need a high resale value is icing on the cake. Now if it is a car that you don't want then buying it simply because it has a high resale value is foolish. For me a Civic would actually have to have a resale value that is greater than its cost for me to buy it simply because it would sit in my driveway and never be used (I am too big for it). Now the Caddy doesn't need to have the high resale value because 1.) I really like the car and 2.) I will most likely own the car until I die.

lemko

Holy smoke! I couldn't have said it any better!

snakeweasel

True. However I sometimes want to "point and shoot" through traffic. Okay I'm a leadfoot and want a lil' power.

I know what you mean, I was able to get a CTS-V at a real good price for a "date" car for me and the wife. But then I don't use all its power.

varmint

I don't think you can hold that against the manufacturer. A Ford Focus would be just as useless as a Honda Civic in your circumstances.

But if a buyer is a looking to buy a small sedan they may very well consider the fact that the Focus might be worth toll money, while the Civic could be a down payment on the next vehicle they buy. That would be one of the many criteria used to decide between the two.

socala4

If people thought long and hard about the initial cost versus the long-term value, they might agree with you. But they don't. They go to trade in their Ford/Chevy/Dodge and find out it ain't worth squat.

Trade-in value is not the only component of "cost" or "value" to the customer.

In economic terms, the value for a trade-in buyer is largely based upon the marginal change, i.e. the delta between the purchase price and the trade-in value. For example, if the "domestic" initially costs $2,000 less, but loses $4,000 more value for the same mileage/ age as compared to the "import" equivalent, then all things being equal, the import is ultimately more affordable. People don't need a slide rule to know that an Accord will probably hold its value far better than would an equivalent GM car, particularly one which will see a lot of fleet cars being dumped onto the market within a couple of years' time.

There is also the cost of ownership. If the domestic has greater odds of being less reliable, then that unreliable car will cost more in terms of time, frustration and perhaps economic costs related to the loss, such as that rental car needed while Bessie is in the shop. Even if the repairs are covered by a warranty, the related costs, both economic and otherwise, may be presumed to be greater with the less reliable domestic. And of course, a poor repair record certainly won't help the trade-in value.

dieselone

I think resale can and should be at least considered. I've been burned by cars with poor resale value and rewarded with cars with high resale value. I agree if you keep cars 10 years it doesn't mean much, but it still can if you total your car or it gets stolen. If you don't have coverage for replacement cost (which most people don't have) you can really get screwed if something bad happens to your car during the first few years of ownership.

In 1997, I purchased a 1998 Ford SVT Contour that I purchased over a 1997 VW Jetta VR6 (both were around $23k). I loved that car, but unfortunately I had nothing but trouble with it. I decided I couldn't take the problems anymore and I traded it in on a 2000 VW Jetta TDI. Before trading it in I talked with a friend of mine who's family owned a used car dealership and worked with the wholesale market.

In 3 years it had a wholesale value of about $6000 and that's what the VW dealership gave me for it for the Jetta TDI. Since I was furious on how much this car had depreciated, I asked my friend what the wholesale value of a 1997 VW Jetta VR6 optioned similarly to my SVT Contour with the same mileage was worth. $11,000. That's a big freakin difference. A difference that would have kept me from being upside down.

Well, in 2001 my wife got her fist company car. We didn't need 3 vehicles so I sold my Jetta TDI with 35,000 miles on it for $17,500 and the MSRP was $21K. If I had bought another Ford or GM product I probably would have been out another $3-5K and it would have taken a lot longer to sell. My Jetta was sold in 3 days and I probably could have got more for it, cause I got asking price no questions asked.

Not to mention the fuel savings and lack of speeding tickets in the TDI which routinely achieved near 50mpg.

snakeweasel

A Ford Focus would be just as useless as a Honda Civic in your circumstances.

Actually I am able to fit in a Focus, rented on in Hawaii a few years ago rather liked it.

But thats not my point. My point was if the car isn't right for you than a high resale value is totally meaningless. Why should someone buy a car they don't like simply because they can get more money for it when they sell it down the road?

But if a buyer is a looking to buy a small sedan they may very well consider the fact that the Focus might be worth toll money, while the Civic could be a down payment on the next vehicle they buy.

To be honest resale values are not that much far apart for cars with similar original prices. So what if a comparatively equipped Civic has a resale value that is $1,000 more than my Elantra? My Elantra originally costs $1,500 less. So tell me, how am I better off paying $1,500 extra for $1,000 more down the line?

socala4

Why should someone buy a car they don't like simply because they can get more money for it when they sell it down the road?

A strawman argument, given that no one suggested that people should purchase cars that they dislike.

The degree of loyalty to Honda and Toyota would be an reasonable indicator that their customers tend to like them. But perhaps they're just dumb, and we should all buy Hyundais, instead.