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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Because the platform was designed for the V series.

    You walked right into that one. So let me get this straight - Cadillac can design a platform that can be used on a $32,000 sedan and a $62,000 sedan but Lincoln can't design one that can be used on a $25,000 vehicle and a $50,000 vehicle?

    And while we're at it - what about the $45,000 Corvette and the $100,000 XLR? Aren't they on the same platform? They even share drivetrain components.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Is the Fusion a better car than the Accord or Camry. I would say no.
    I'll even agree on this one - but it is close. The 2010 model with the new 2.5L I4 and 3.5L V6 and Hybrid will be very competitive if it gets the interior and exterior updates that are expected.

    No one here thinks the Taurus is an eye grabber. That is its most obvious problem.


    The 2010 Taurus is supposed to be just that - an eye grabber. There was a picture of Mulally in a Ford design studio with the Flex and in the background is a clay model of the 2010 Taurus (according to insiders). It's clear that they've totally changed the greenhouse - goodbye Audi. I think it will be as stunning as a Taurus can be. Too bad it didn't debut at Chicago as predicted - maybe we'll see it in New York.
  • Because it going to be designed for a Ford sedan and the Crown Vics present platform was desined wioth the Towncar in mind wasn't it? Please answer I do'nt believe that Cadillac is using a Chevy Platform.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,419
    Do you mean that the NASCAR version of the Fusion has front wheel drive as does the consumer version or is the vehicle mechanically completely different than the one in the showroom? Your question seems to imply you think we are all retarded. No answer needed.

    Also what about the Quality of the Saturn Aura or Chevy Malibu as compared to the Fusion? Fusion quality is second to none. It is better than even the very good Saturn Aura. The Malibu is too new for proper comparison. It looks as if it will be able to rival Fusion quality. Time will tell.
  • Ford has to wait for 2010 to have a vehicle that can rival a Camry or Accord! Gm has done it now. I believe the new Malibu was voted by the North America Automotive Writers as being the best newly designed auto. The article mentioned that the quality of its construction was as good and in some cases better than the Camry and Accord. Saturn achieved the same standards with its Aura last year! I know Ford has finacial problems but so does GM! Was'nt Mulally the CEO of Boeing. I believe that he said that there would be no market for the Airbus A380 Super Jumbo. I wonder what he would think there would be no market for in the automotive business! Just in case you haven't noticed The Corvettes platform is not shared with a 25000 thousand dollar Pontiac.
  • Really. the Fusion is second to none when compared to the Saturn Aura and Malibu. Well than I guess Road and Track , Motor Trend, Car and Driver are wrong when they mention that the fit and finish of the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu not to mention the smoothness of their engines are the best in their class. Don't forget the Lincoln MKZ is based on the Fusion.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,419
    Ford has to wait for 2010 to have a vehicle that can rival a Camry or Accord! Gm has done it now. I believe the new Malibu was voted by the North America Automotive Writers as being the best newly designed auto. The article mentioned that the quality of its construction was as good and in some cases better than the Camry and Accord. Saturn achieved the same standards with its Aura last year! I know Ford has finacial problems but so does GM! Was'nt Mulally the CEO of Boeing. I believe that he said that there would be no market for the Airbus A380 Super Jumbo. I wonder what he would think there would be no market for in the automotive business! Just in case you haven't noticed The Corvettes platform is not shared with a 25000 thousand dollar Pontiac. I'm sorry, but nothing you just wrote makes any sense at all as a reply to any of the previous posts. (BTW, I am not aware of any 25,000,000 dollar Pontiacs.)
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,419
    Really. the Fusion is second to none when compared to the Saturn Aura and Malibu. Well than I guess Road and Track , Motor Trend, Car and Driver are wrong when they mention that the fit and finish of the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu not to mention the smoothness of their engines are the best in their class. Don't forget the Lincoln MKZ is based on the Fusion. Road and Track is not wrong. Smoothness of engine is as smoothness of engine does. Aura and Malibu outdo Fusion in that regard. You asked about quality ratings. Don't forget MKZ is based on the Fusion??? Who forgot? And what's your point?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Do you mean that the NASCAR version of the Fusion has front wheel drive as does the consumer version or is the vehicle mechanically completely different than the one in the showroom?

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really don't know anything about NASCAR. All NASCAR vehicles are the same underneath the skin - they all use 9" Ford rear ends, same transmissions, have purpose built tube frame chassis, RWD, Solid Rear Axle and a 350 inch pushrod V8 engine. To change a Fusion to a Camry all you do is replace the hood, fiberglass front end with stickers and swap the Ford pushrod 351 for a Toyota pushrod 351 engine. NASCAR hasn't raced a stock car in Sprint Cup for at least 20 or 30 years.

    And as Gregg pointed out the Fusion has been beyond reproach from a quality standpoint - not only is it the highest quality Ford ever produced but it beat out the Camry V6 and tied the Camry I4 and Accord for best quality midsize sedan at Consumer Reports, which is quite a feat considering CR's past bias towards Toyota and Honda (not that most of that bias wasn't earned).

    The Taurus is full sized and does not compete with the Camry and Accord.

    The part you don't seem to understand is that Ford is a TOTALLY different company than it was even 3 years ago. Mark Fields was not responsible for the 2005 Five Hundred body which is still used by the 2008 Taurus. Mulally wasn't in charge back then, either. If it wasn't for those 2 we wouldn't even have a chance of Lincoln getting a new purpose built RWD platform. Even the MKS was designed and locked in before Fields - the only thing they had time to change was the grille.

    Starting this year with the Flex and later this year you're starting to see what the NEW Ford is capable of. So far they have the right attitude and product plans (merge the CD3 and EUCD platforms, merge the NA and Euro Focus platforms, merge NA and Aussie RWD platforms, share more truck and SUV platforms, add new technology (MKS, Sync), add a new B car). The only question left is will they go far enough and will they execute on all those plans and can they keep the company together long enough for that to happen.
  • I was pointing out the Gm is also having financial problems and is still producing better cars then Ford. Gm realizes that it can't wait to see what its rivals are going to do. In a few years the Camry and Accord will be re-engineered to surpass the Aura and Malibu. The CTS has reached parity with its rivals. While Ford will have to wait a couple of years to have a platform that can rival todays Camry and Accord.
  • Consumer Reports is not the automotive press. Is it? I don't' believe that they are concerned with performance other then what the average person is use to How come when a consumer is told that a Fusion is a Ford ,the products approval rating drops? Ask J.D Powers . Could it be that Ford has an image of building shoddy products?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Exactly how is the above paragraph different if we substitute Jaguar for Volvo and DEW-98 for D3? The fact is that Ford has decided that DEW-98 is TOO GOOD for Lincoln, which will now share ALL it's platforms with "Ford", by which I mean Mazda, Volvo and Australia.

    Context, Joe, context. The decision to share dew98 with jag was made way back in 1996. The decision to drop dew98 was made sometime around 2002-2003. Way before Fields and Mulally. Had they been in control back then would dew98 still be alive and kicking? I'd say it's likely but that's water under the bridge at this point.

    The question is: what would you do TODAY given that Jag and Volvo are on the auction block? Would you choose to develop a NEW platform with a division that you're about to sell? Only if there was no other choice or there was some other synergy that could be realized.

    Is it about saving money? Of course! Ford needs profits. But I don't understand why people treat Ford of Australia and Ford of Europe as separate companies.
    But saving money doesn't mean building cheap platforms. It means taking advantage of existing Ford resources wherever continent they happen to be on to reduce duplication and share engineering costs.

    I think a lot of people simply resent the fact that Ford is not using American resources and all of this bellyaching over platform sharing is just an offshoot of that. Because there is absolutely no technical or financial reason for Ford NOT to develop RWD platform with the Aussies. None.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "The question is: what would you do TODAY given that Jag and Volvo are on the auction block? Would you choose to develop a NEW platform with a division that you're about to sell?"

    Are you really asking me this question? For God's sake the modified DEW-98 platform exists NOW, ans has for probably2 or 3 years. FORD PAID for it. It is insane to me that they won't use it to make a GD Lincoln that has higher aspirations than a freaking Versailles remake. COme on, man. Quit making excuses for them. They could build a world class Lincoln if they wanted to - BUT THEY DON'T. They're content to make warmed over cheapos and call them Lincolns. Be serious. And I;m including St Mulally in this. He's done NOTHING as far as I can tell except for the failed name change, a bad joke at Bush' expense and a lot of talking about platform sharing. Oh and a lot of newly unemployed Ford workers.

    "But I don't understand why people treat Ford of Australia and Ford of Europe as separate companies."

    How about this - because the needs of drivers in America differ dramatically from those in Europe. Australia maybe not so much different, but the cars Ford has brought over from Australia have been total flops.

    "Because there is absolutely no technical or financial reason for Ford NOT to develop RWD platform with the Aussies. None. "

    Here's one - The Australian Mercury Capri. Described by either Click or Clack as " real shiny piece of poop" IIRC.

    As for your not so veiled attack on my feelings about using Americans to design and build cars for America, I must say your attitude fits in perfectly well with that "giant sucking sound" that Ross Perot used to describe the rush of jobs from America that has occurred just as he predicted. I dont know your situation, but it's getting mighty grim all over for American workers as far as I can see. Perhaps you are independently wealthy and or dont have children and so dont give a RIP?
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    cd;

    Yeah, thanks for inserting the (human-caused) descriptor that I forgot. It is unfreakingbelieveable to me that so many people have bought into this chicken-little GW stuff. I'm beginning to realize that there is something else going on here and they're using this as an excuse to do some global-economic-balancing so to speak.
    But I digress again. You are right, I'm in stage 2. And I sink deeper into the quicksand when I read the Horse poop excuses on here for Ford making the decision to be a maker and seller of crap to the least common denominator. Period. They could have (AND STILL COULD) build a world-class Lincoln but the decision is to move Lincoln down-market and only our long-lost and probably laid off friend, ANT, who used to post here, was honest about it.
    In time and with enough medication, I will join you in stage 3.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Someone mentioned the Ford Flex as an example of Ford's bright new future. I have no crystal ball, but I don't see this vehicle as saving anything. It's nothing but an expensive station wagon, an offering identical in many ways, though with a cheaper interior and not as good looking as the now-failed Chrysler Pacifica which has been trolling this market for 5 or more years.

    Now, the pricing for the Flex is released on BON. I looked at it last night and the retail price of a Flex Limited AWD with a sunroof, Nav and DVD system is about $43,000 plus tax, title, license and transportation. Anybody else think that's a lot of money for a Ford station wagon?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Ok, I got it. Anything that YOU like is great, wonderful and the best thing since sliced bread and anything you don't like is crap and should never be produced.

    If you want a DEW98 derived chassis so bad, go buy one. They're available right now at your local Jaguar dealer. They start at $49K.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,206
    It's pretty clear that you & I have found Lincoln wanting of late.

    Part of what distresses me is that there's not much that I like better in today's market than the 8-year-old LS (~130K miles) I'm crutching along as my daily driver.

    What do you drive (and why)? I'm in the process of telling myself to settle for an Acura TSX until the German diesels are introduced & settle down here in North America. Then I can sell or turn in the lease in 2-3 years and get something closer to what I really want.

    What I want simply isn't available (manual trans, RWD, fold-down rear seats & a diesel) here in the U.S., though I could have found exactly that six (or more) years ago in Europe.

    Gotta love the EPA, or California, or the American public, or whatever -- in any event, what's available here today doesn't work for me.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    No, you don't got it. And u obviously never will.
    Even the casual observer can see that Ford has drastically lowered the bar for Lincoln. I just used the word 'crap' as shorthand for that. So be it. And Mercury, my first love car-wise, will soon be gone. And so it goes. And maybe by 2011 or so, you can rush down to your Ford-Lincoln dealer and choose between a $43000 Flex and a probably $55,000 or more "Lincoln" mkwhatever with a bustle-back design. Some folks are easily pleased. Others have higher standards. If Lincoln hadn't aspired to those higher standards back in 2000, we wouldn't be arguing right now. But they had their 15 minutes of automotive fame and now - poof - gone with the wind(star).
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    cd;

    We are in the same boat. We're still driving our 2001 LS getrag. It's my wife's daily driver as I, as an old white guy, am personna non grata in the job market here. She loves it. She lobbied for the manual over the auto at the time and I was happy to "go along" wink-wink. It's approaching 95K miles and except for crappy HVAC and the usual front sway bar bushings, still really runs fantastic. Well, like new anyway :)

    I hear ya on replacing it. Mines worth maybe $8000. So I'd need another $25K minimum to get something even close to same. And with gas now at $3.50/gal here I'd want a big increase in mpg to go with it. Needless to say there's nothing like that around. I did have a rental Passat a couple weeks ago that came close. 2.0 turbo was lightning fast and got real high 20s mpg and I pushed it. I assume a manual is avail cause it's a VW, but I could be wrong.

    TSX is nice, but it's FWD isn't it? For what u want, doesnt the Infiniti G also come close to fitting the bill? Manual avail, RWD, fast as a rocket. No diesel. It's what my wife wants to buy to replace the LS. Someday. Oh, and then there's that Caddy ;) I know u said no more Americans, but Caddy sure seems a whole lot more committed and on top of it than Lincoln ever will be.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,419
    manual trans, RWD, fold-down rear seats & a diesel

    Nope. Nothing like that here. Isn't it a shame that in other parts of the world you would have many models to choose from? The new clean diesel Jetta is almost here, and that would fill your bill, except for the RWD. The Jetta is trimmed out like a luxury car.
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