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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Automakers work on a lot of things that they don't publicly announce and may only be known privately if an insider leaks information. Especially if they think it gives them a competitive advantage. The Twin Turbo 3.5L had been in development for quite some time and actually running in a prototype vehicle for months before it was leaked.

    I'm not saying they are or they aren't working on something else - I'm just saying that neither of us is qualified to say that they aren't working on something.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    It seems Ford is listening and the bean counters are no longer in charge.

    Unique Looks for Lincoln
    Design boss favors different sheet metal, launch schedule from Ford vehicles


    Based on the same platform as the Ford Five Hundred sedan, the concept version of the MKS shares "not a single piece" of its exterior with the Ford, Horbury said. The Five Hundred went on sale in 2004, and an updated version is due by mid-2007.

    Autoweek
  • "Lincoln, at least is making some "Bold Moves" with the MKX, Navigator..."

    Can anyone name a single "bold": thing about these vehicles?

    Other than the amount of chrome on an otherwise identical Ford, I can't.

    "We might even get a Lincoln Continental at some point in the future. "

    More likely we won't, since there is has not been any proposal for that mentioned in years.

    "Lincoln, like Acura, is delivering class leading technology, quality, cutting edge design, for a whole heck of alot less money"

    They are rebadged Fords; mechanically identical, using the same bodies with more chrome - I have never seen any credible person anywhere describe a single aspect as "class leading". They are built on the same assembly lines by the same people out of the same stuff.

    "Lincoln, has already show in' its future hands and to the future consumer they are all "royal flushes"."

    There is a single concept car floating around, and every time information is released it changes, and the entire car is being redesigned since no one has ever had anything good to say about it. And it's still 2-3 years from production.

    I do agree Royal Flush is indeed the correct term for what Ford has done with Lincoln in general and the future if they think the MKS will save Lincoln.
  • That sounds promising-- finally "car guys" are getting more say over the bean counters, for a change.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    I dunno. Just sounds like more pap to me. Take for instance this quote:

    "A distinct Mercury model would be nice, "but is it necessary?" Horbury said"

    IOW if we can fool the public with different launch dates and different tail lights, we will.

    In the focus group I attended a year ago, a huge effort went into trying to determine how much they have to do (or more likely how little they can get away with) to change the looks of a car so folks dont realize its the same platform. They had about a dozen cars with slightly different sheet metal, lights, mirrors etc and we were to answer - do you think this car is related to that one etc. Duh. Excuse me, Mr anonymous automaker who put on this focus group, but this old dude could tell ALL the dozen cars were Fusions underneath. One of the renditions gave me the idea that Pontiac might be the next target competitor for Lincoln.

    Also, Horbury says that the MKX shares 50% of its sheetmetal with the Edge? From the pictures it looks to me like it shares all 4 doors, the rear hatch and bumper, the rear quarter panels and probably the hood and front qtr panels up to the fascia for the headlights. Oh and the roof too. Am I wrong? Looks more like 90% to me.

    Oh, and read the first sentence carefully and notice this:
    "Lincoln vehicles should sport mostly distinct exterior sheet metal". He says they SHOULD .. not will. Weasel words if u ask me.

    Oh and now, in homage to our own Rockylee no doubt, the MKS "goes on sale" in 2008. I will agree thought that the S is very different from the 500. No one will suspect they're the same cars. But folks will and already do suspect the S is an Aurora or Acura twin. Is that what they want?
    And finally Horbury, in an obvious dig at his predecessor, said he was surprised that the Zephyr fooled anyone that it's nothing but a Fusion with a Lincoln grille. I see, and the MKZ is much more distinct?

    OK, I'll put on my flame-proof suit now.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I get the feeling that George won't be happy with a Lincoln unless it has an American engineered RWD V8 platform not shared with Mazda or Volvo. So I'll skip the obvious benefits of having unique engines, sheetmetal, interior, features and suspensions for Lincoln as a big step in the right direction.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    5-series? Hmmm, I never thought of it as a 5-er competitor. More 3-series to me. Back then people still understood the tiering of the BMW series.

    To me, it was/is:

    You show up in a Z4
    You get there in a 3
    You reach your destination in fashion in a 5
    You appear in a 6
    You arrive in a 7
    You marked your entrance in an 8
    You arrive and get noticed in a Z8
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    You can think whatever u want. Facts is facts. The LS is a bit bigger than the 5, was compared against the 5 in the mags and in at least one Lincoln commercial. The BMW 3 series is a pretty small car.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    The LS was bigger than a 5 series, almost as big as a 7 series. It was a "tweener". Lincoln had another "tweener" planned to slot between the 3 and 5 series but it was killed when the Firestone fiasco cut Lincoln's budget by 70%.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "the Firestone fiasco cut Lincoln's budget by 70%. "

    Thanks to the ambulance chasers. I hate lawyers.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,676
    Hate lawyers all you want...but SOMETHING was wrong with the earlier model Explorer with Firestone tires, and somebody had to pay for those injuries...you can argue whether Ford said to underinflate the tires or Firestone made bad tires, but the rollovers did seem to occur with the Fstone Wilderness tires, and not with other tires...

    So, before trashing lawyers, I do believe something was poorly designed, and unless they were sued, no one seemed to step up to the plate and admit fault...

    Which still does not justify chasing ambulances..:):):)
  • Thanks to the ambulance chasers. I hate lawyers.

    That might be the one statement here on which everyone can agree. ;)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Can't litigate this here, but I've owned 4 SUVs, one of them an Explorer Sport Trac and never rolled any of em. Every one of them had a warning label on the sunvisor saying dont drive this thing like a car. Yet, have you noticed how people drive in these things? Like idiots 1/2 the time. Ya think perhaps that could be a contributing factor?
    A "good" lawyer can spin anything in front of a hand-picked jury (dumb as doorknobs usually-if they can spell "DNA", they're excluded). Heck, they could probably even get a guy off if he sliced his ex-wife's throat ear-to-ear and killed her paramour-du-jour and the cops find her blood in his car and a cut on his hand, and a bloody glove at his house, ya think?
    I hate these guys. Shakespeare where art thou when we need thou?
    One bit of anecdotal evidence - I drive a LOT. I've NEVER seen an Explorer rolled, flipped or otherwise hosed up. However, I have seen at least 1/2 dozen Toyota Previas rolled. Strangely, never heard of a lawsuit against Toyota.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    The suspension on those SUVs was not adequate for the job on hand. When updated, Ford as much said that they now had a safer suspension. Can not recall the exact wording of the ad. Telling people to under inflate a tire is dangerous. Tell them say 6 pounds under, which is borderline dangerous, and then add a time factor between the next check, and how low do you think those pressures were. And then the tire problem, which Firestone acknowledged was there. I think it is the Chevy Blazer which had some problems staying upright - wasn't it? Of course, as pointed out, if people would drive the SUV more slowly like an off road vehicle, and not try any sports car moves, I am sure most accidents could be avoided. Would I want a car which could not maneuver well to avoid an accident, is not safe at car speeds, and is basically boat to handle - no, hell no way.

    For high speed SUV runs, I do believe only the Porsche Cayenne is recommended. :D
  • They are rebadged Fords; mechanically identical, using the same bodies with more chrome - I have never seen any credible person anywhere describe a single aspect as "class leading". They are built on the same assembly lines by the same people out of the same stuff.

    The Ford doesn't have the new 3.5L motor. Nor does it have real wood and leather on the dash and door panels.

    There is nothing wrong with platform sharing. Different suspension designs and tuning can create a completely different vehicle. For example, the new Mustang uses the (modified) Lincoln LS platform.
  • hey, lets start talkin about Lincoln now, not Fords that like to lie on their back. Personally, I think Ford has kind of messed up th ebrand. They aren't offering a V8 in the MXS, huge mistake, and they cant decide what to call the Zephyr, and their crucial Navigator, where is it? I cant see past the GRILL. o well, mark another company off the chart to join with plymouth and olds
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Soon, the Mustang will have the 3.5 V6. And not a moment too soon. As for looks, I'd still go with the 'o4. I was there in '69 and liked the car then, as I do now. Nice car, chrome bumpers and all. The retro is a bit less IMHO, inside and out. Looks a bit too plain.

    As for sharing of platform, that's OK by me -- why not buy the Milan if ya want a nifty looking appliance car. It too gets the job done and looks well doing it. Drop the 3.5 in that one. Matter of fact, no sharing needed at all, just make the Ford car line the better looking Mercury line, and the trucks all Ford Trucks. Have a Ford Premium Trucks, and Mercury, by Ford cars, and forget all the rest of the nonsense. Lincoln line is what they refer now to as near luxury cars, and that market is better served by others. Wonder if near luxury is a buzz word for going nearly broke for us poor, and chump change for the true rich. Poser cars? Heck win the mid-sized class game and make that Lincoln, with all the silly letters, the Mercury, and drop Fusion and MKSABCETS alphabet soup Lincolns.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    The only one that looks interesting to me is the MKZ, and it costs more than the Aura or Milan. Beside that it is FWD. *Yawn*
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Actually the mustang is not a modified LS platform. They started that way but ended up changing everything except the floor pan and the fuel tanks. The mustang platform is actually significantly stiffer than the dew98. The Tbird needed cross braces behind the front seats which you can't do in a mustang with a rear seat.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    The Ford doesn't have the new 3.5L motor. Nor does it have real wood and leather on the dash and door panels.

    There is nothing wrong with platform sharing. Different suspension designs and tuning can create a completely different vehicle. For example, the new Mustang uses the (modified) Lincoln LS platform.


    You miss the point. No one is saying there is something wrong with platform sharing. The Volvo S80, the Ford 500 and the Lincoln MKS share a platform, but they do not share styling, body panels, window glass, height, length, width or even wheelbase length. They are different cars for different customers.

    On the other hand, the 3.5 V6 could easily be installed in the Fusion and Milan too...and should be, given where the competition (Camry, etc.) has gone. Wood and leather are trim packages that could easily be offered on the Milan.

    The Ford triplets share ALL architecture (wheelbase, all mounting points, etc.), windshields, roof panels, doorskins, door glass. The Ford Freestyle, which is the wagon version of the Ford 500, has more differentiation from the 500 than the MKZ has from the Fusion. It is just not right to take a Ford and merely modify trim, put in more sound deadening and a couple unique options, and then call it a Lincoln.

    It is all they have and all they can do right now, but the next iteration needs to be uniquely Lincoln, or Lincoln will no longer mean anything more special than "Mercury."
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I don't disagree. But given the neglect at Lincoln it was more important to get the Zephyr out the door quickly to give the dealers something to sell (the LS died earlier than expected).

    The MKS philosophy is better (no shared sheetmetal) but they need to take that into the interior as well with standard Lincoln features like electric tilt/telescope steering wheel. Add Lincoln only drivetrains (like the 3.7L) and I think they've got it.

    And I do think they need a new RWD platform for their flagship, but I think it can coexist with the MKS and appeal to 2 different buyers.
  • And I do think they need a new RWD platform for their flagship, but I think it can coexist with the MKS and appeal to 2 different buyers.

    I agree. They should build a PREMIUM rear drive sedan to compete with the larger BMW and Mercedes models, as well as the Lexus LS and Infinity Q/M 45, Cadillac CTS. And make it truly premium and world-class. A strong V8, sophisticated suspension tuning and steering feel (BMW in the crosshairs here), and no parts bin engineering. Nobody wants to lay out 50 large for a car, and have Fusion switchgear and hard plastics. And offer it with a MANUAL TRANSMISSION! Even if only 10% of the buyers want it, that's still 10% that you might lose to someone who does offer it, and the critics will like it a whole lot more. Even if it's not a volume seller, it would be a "halo car" to give the brand a better image.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    MKS looks pretty good. Make that the Mercury by Ford 500 model, and sell it for $24K with the new V6 and $29K with a V8 and luxo junk added. As for a FWD turned AWD turned Lincoln for anything over $29K, I think not. Drop the Lincoln and Ford car names, go upscale Mercury by Ford. Lincoln dealers now have an upscale Mercury to sell. It's all Ford anyway- a reality check.
    -Loren
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Well you can FORGET it.

    You've just described the Lincoln LS almost to a tee and they just killed that so they could build Mazda and Volvo clones. Forget it, Lincoln is history as a performance oriented luxury brand. I'm finally convinced. Lincoln is the new Oldsmobile.
  • The LS didn't fail Ford, Ford failed the LS.

    It sold very well and was highly praised.
    But Ford did what Ford always does- They neglected it until it's sales withered away and they had an excuse to kill it.
    It's no different than what they almost did with the Mustang in the late 80's, and "successfully" did with the Minivan market, the Focus, the Ranger, the Town car and the Crown Vic.
    Taurus was selling 400k units a year not that long ago- now it's dead. It takes remarkable skill to pull that off!
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Yes indeed, the new Lincoln is " not your fathers automobile." Recall that stupid Oldsmobile ad which insulted the your fathers choice in a car, which was actually the better car, and did not impress the sons and daughters one bit to buy an Olds. In looking back, I recall a wonderful Olds Cutlass 1972 model family car, with rear wheel drive. Now it was the 1980's with the FWD less than stellar engineered cars thrown together to compete with Japan makes, which they were claiming to be new, better, exciting, reliable, and blah,blah,blah. I beg to differ. I would take the '68 Olds 442 or the '72 Cutlass we owned over the so called modern junk by GM. I do believe these are the days of, " it's not your father's Lincoln " and that is the problem. Weren't those Mark cars hot looking? How about the old Lincolns with the suicide doors? And what happened to the classic look to the Town Car?

    As for the last run Olds, I do like the looks of the last Aurora Euro look last rendition And the original Aurora was perhaps unique enough to be in auto shows within a decade, or less. An interesting looking car.
    Actually, the Intrigue is a better looking car than lots of bland looks presented as Chevy cars.
    -Loren
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    I guess the LS would not be a bad choice in a used car. Have not researched the car all that much however. I recall some years were better than others for reliability -- which if I recall correctly may have been an issue for a couple years.

    It was not bad looking, yet lacked that stand-out look. I bet a design team could have made a new one, with more style presence within a years time and saved this car. Advertising, I always though was rather stupid. And it could have to do with dealerships not being viewed by consumers as knowing a thing about performance cars. Perhaps a new image for dealerships, and two cars with rear wheel drive would have helped. Something like a BMW3 and 5 . Or even the FWD Zepyher is OK for BMW3 competition (yet it FWD???) and then a 5 and 7 sized Lincoln to compete in RWD class. I am afraid this one car at a time does not make a whole.
    Loren
  • rockyleerockylee Wyoming, MichiganPosts: 13,989
    I love your post and you mae a great arguement. I honestly have to disagree with you on the "This isn't your fathers Lincoln" comment. Now with Olds, you are correct. The new Lincolns exceed anything that Lincoln, has rolled off it's assembly line. I like I said before liked my grandfathers 88' Continental. ;)

    Rocky
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,208
    True. My father's Oldsmobile was an awesome 1955 Ninety-Eight Starfire convertible and my Uncle Daniel had one of those awesome Continentals. I'll take a nice 1965 Continental over ANY current Lincoln.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 34,345
    I've seen a few new "Emm Kay" commercials over the past couple days. It's just not a good naming convention.
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