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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • ehaaseehaase Posts: 328
    i'm pretty sure i still remember his response to a question about gm's answer to the gen II k-car for about 7k was, 'buy a 2 year old buick/olds'.

    I think it was his response to what was GM's response to Hyundai, when it first debuted in the U.S.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,616
    my sister in law says i have a great mind for useless facts. :)
    i'm pretty sure it was a k-car.
  • Either way, it says more about their mis-placed arrogance than it does about the other car in question.
  • "i'm pretty sure i still remember his response to a question about gm's answer to the gen II k-car for about 7k was, 'buy a 2 year old buick/olds'.

    I think it was his response to what was GM's response to Hyundai, when it first debuted in the U.S. "

    Now Toyota and Honda behave in same arrogant manner. Like "it is used car but it is still Honda". Or two years old certified Camry is better than new Ford.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,616
    sometimes you have to sift through a lot of junk, but i have learned a lot by posting and reading here on edmunds.
    i have learned that the mkz is based on a fusion, but i still like it.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Actually, the MKZ and the Fusion are based on a Mazda.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,616
    i think the mkz and fusion share the same chassis, which is an upgraded mazda 6 chassis. that's why i left out the mazda.
  • And Mazda is based on European Ford.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Well, yeah, but the mkz is based on the mazda not the ford. It IS the ford.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    I dont think this is true. Where did u read that?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    The Fusion and MKZ are both built on a MODIFIED mazda6 platform. It's longer and wider. It's no more a rebadged Mazda than the LS was a rebadged Jaguar S type.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Relax. I never said it was a rebadged Mazda, I said it was based on the Mazda. One could say though that the emmkayzee is a rebadged Ford.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    Nope. Rebadging means they share drivetrains and interiors (at the very least). A Mazda B series pickup is a rebadged Ranger. A Mazda Navajo was a rebadged Explorer. I would even call the Mark LT a rebadged F150 (right now).

    The MKZ has a different engine and totally different interior. It's a shared platform. There is a difference.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    There is a difference, correct, but it is only a gradation just slightly away from rebadging...since so many of the body panels are the same, the mounting points are the same, the glass openings are the same. The different engine does little toward true differentiation, because last year, the Zephyr had the exact same engine, and soon the Fusion/Milan will need to offer the same 3.5 as MKZ in order to remain competitive. So, you have badge engineering on one end of the spectrum (Fusion/Milan, 500/Montego, F150/Mark LT, Edge/MKX, etc.) and shared platforms or architecture but with trule model differentiation on the other end (Fusion/Edge, LS/Type S, Mazda3/Volvo s40, MKS/S80, etc).

    Cars like MKZ have barely moved away from the badge engineering end of the spectrum. But again, it was the best effort Ford could offer under the circumstances, and a lot of MKZ owners don't care about...or don't even notice...the close similarity to Fusion, so it wasn't a bad move for Lincoln. Still, Lincoln cannot afford to keep issuing models on the cheap like MKX, MKZ and Mark LT. Hopefully, the MKR is a portend of better things to come...and hopefully as well it will get here before Lincoln is pushed out of the marketplace by Cadillac and others (the 2008 CTS leaps way ahead of the MKZ).
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    Lincoln has already announced the 3.7L version of the new Duratec which will be Lincoln only, and Horbury said starting with the MKS Lincoln would get 100% unique sheetmetal. They just have to survive for a couple more years. I believe Fields and Mulally (can we just start calling them FM?) have already given marching orders to stop the obvious cost cutting and instead add more features with better designs because you can't outcheap the Koreans and Chinese.

    I think the 09 models will really tell us how well they execute the strategy.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "I believe Fields and Mulally (can we just start calling them FM?)"

    Well, since Mulally is the big cheese, we should call them the "MF-ers" I think.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "before Lincoln is pushed out of the marketplace by Cadillac and others (the 2008 CTS leaps way ahead of the MKZ"

    Just think - the CTS was a pipe dream when the LS was released, began to compete head-to-head with the 5-Series, came close to beating it in several comparos, won Motor Trend COY and brought Lincoln's reputation up several notches.

    Now, the CTS is what the LS could have been and the LS is history and Lincoln has NOTHING to compete with the Europeans OR Cadillac for that matter. You just cant say the emmkayzee competes with the ceeteeess. The CTS is a luxury-sport sedan. The MKZ is a castrated luxo-Mazda.

    Gee, I wonder if Cadillac loses money on every CTS they sell like some people say Ford did with the LS. My guess is NO. As for the emmkatarr - it is a non-sequitor. It will never be produced. Something like it maybe in around 2012 or so. Til then we can buy a Mazda-Lincoln or maybe in a year or two a Volvo-Lincoln.

    To illustrate just how bad it is, Lincoln has begun featuring the emmkayrrr on its website. A car you will never be able to buy is what they are featuring. Do they really think people will buy the second-rate stuff they're selling now because they produced a winning one-off concept car?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    George - why are you so sure they won't build a car like the MKR?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Allen;

    I'm not sure of much. But I am sure you'll never be able to buy a mkr. By that I mean as it is pictured now on the Lincoln site. That's what I said - they're featuring a car you'll never be able to buy. I think you'll agree with that.

    Now, they might, check, probably WILL design and build something based on the mkr design. Maybe as close as the Z is to the original Zephyr concept, though I doubt that. I think the rear end will need to be substantially redesigned for crash-worthiness. And I hope they tone down the cowcatcher on the front a bit.

    I hope they do, it is an exciting look and Lord knows they need something exciting. Tell u what though, I think it'll be a LOT more expensive than the LS or MKS, so it'll be a moot point for me.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    Obviously the front grille will be toned down but to their credit they took production capability into account when designing the MKR concept. That's why it has regular rear doors instead of suicide doors, e.g. and it's not built on some exotic platform.

    I *think* we'll see a RWD sedan with at least 400 hp with at least 5 of the 7 Lincoln styling cues that looks much closer to the MKR than previous Lincoln concepts.

    That and $5 will get you a grande soy latte.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    What they need is at least one model with 7 of the 7 styling cues, one that is bold and polarizing. One that George can think is too way out or deficient in rear design while I think it is perfect the way it is (and would buy it in a second if it were only available). The time for "toning down" is long, long past. If they do it again, three or four years hence, they are done. The end. (And good riddance if they continue to be so clueless.)
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I'm told the MKR has all 7 of the 7 cues in it, which is why it's extreme.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    The MKR was built specifically to showcase the 7 styling cues for the public and probably more importantly, the designers.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Why was the more elegant Continental Concept built? And more importantly, forgotten?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    Because Lincoln was rudderless the last 6 years. The new regime (Horbury and Fields) specifically chastised previous Lincoln leadership for building concepts that never made it into production. That in combination with the changes that Fields and Mulally are making give me a lot of confidence that they'll build a production version of the MKR. Only question is exactly which platform (stretched mustang, new aussie falcon or a new platform shared by both) and when.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    I hope you're right. ANother beautiful concept was the MK 9 hardtop convertible. I remember the Lincoln MF at the time saying they will never build anything like it, it's just a concept. That was on the SAME DAY it was first shown. Meanwhile Caddy and the other players (even Pontiac) have their own.

    And u know IMHO, I still see no rudder or even oar in the water. Take the stupid name thing for instance. They couldn't even make up their mind if it's emmkay or mark. Finally, they chose the nonsensical one. Even the badging on the cars implies that it should be pronounced "Mark Z". Take a look - the M and K are smaller and the Z is spaced further from the other two. I dont think they yet have a frickin clue what they're doing. And with all the best people taking buyouts (if history repeats) I'm in the pessimist column until I see different.

    And, I hope it's not too little too late. Here in SF bay area, 3 LM and 2 Ford dealers have gone out of business in the last year or two. And those are only the ones I know about. There may be more.
  • I thought it was Ford's intention to reduce number of dealership. In SF Bay area American cars do not sell at all. I see more niche products like Toyota FJ or Honda Ridgeline than Fusion/Milan/MKZ.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    We won't see any results from the new regime until this fall at the earliest with the dramatic stuff coming the year after. Everything that's out now was set 2 years ago. It's the little things that are being done that give me confidence (including Mulally taking back control of capital spending from the board).
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Well, maybe I'll have the resources to actually think about a new vehicle by then. I wish them luck, I really do.
  • I have to take a look at Chevy Malibu really hard, because my car is already 4 years old. Fusion/Milan are good cars but they designed interior the way that it looks less expensive than it really is. My Sable looks inside like more upscale car and it costs less (with all discounts I got). Aura exterior does not exite - too Asian/European and cheap looking plastic in interior is in too many places. It needless to say that you cannot consider Chrysler midsizers seriously.
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