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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I should know this, but what do the CTS and STS share platforms with? Anyone know?

    Just each other, and the SRX.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    But why they didn't update the body panels, at the very least when the F150 was revamped, is a mystery.

    The Previous and current F-150 is a different platform than the Expedition since 03, and the panels don't fit, neither does the dash. That's why the Mark LT didn't get the Navigator interior.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Well, yes, that was my point. Why didn't they update the bodies of the Expedition and Navigator around 2003 or 2004, with the brand new 2004 F150 already in the pipeline? As it stands now, even with the tremendous changes underneath (in both 2003 and 2007 editions of the utes), both the current Expedition and Navigator are still using the old body designed off the 1997 F150. That is just stupid planning.

    BTW, unlike F150 and Expedition, the Ranger and Explorer were different platforms from the beginning (and there was never a real good reason that Ford should have spent all that money making them completely different platforms, but they did). However, Ford still found a way to hang the same dashboard in both. I think the Mark LT didn't get the Navigator interior style for cost reasons, not because it couldn't have been done.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Great Northwest, West of the Cascades.Posts: 3,332
    "months later on October 17, 1945 the first post-war Cadillac rolled off the line, albeit missing certain amenities due to materials rationing."

    My father purchased the 3rd post war Chrysler Windsor to arrive here after he turned down a Black Royal. We were lucky to get a new car, but the chrome hubcaps came six months later. Some new cars were shipped without bumpers and the dealers mounted Doug Fir 2X4's until the chrome bumpers came in. Exciting times then. :)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "I should know this, but what do the CTS and STS share platforms with? Anyone know?

    Just each other, and the SRX."

    And this IS the right way to run an airline.
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I think the Mark LT didn't get the Navigator interior style for cost reasons, not because it couldn't have been done.

    If you are right, then my Ford engineer buddy lied to me.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,205
    A world? Naw, maybe a small town / municipality's worth. Not a world of difference much between the Catera and the initial CTS. Had plenty of seat time in both and it wasn't that much difference. It wasn't Cavalier/Cimmaron similar, but not as much as you're trying to state IMO.

    But do agree that the new CTS is a major leap. In any event the point was that many didn't think the Catera or CTS were a "true" Caddy. Just a stopgap if you will, with some even saying "Uh-oh, another Cimmaron". An ex-coworker had a Catera and many just called it an Opel Caddy, or some other, shall we say "less-kind" words. But to each his/her own.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Probably not a lie. There are different mounting points, which would have made it a design chore...though still do-able.

    I will never figure out why the powers that be approved continued use of the 10 year old body shell for the Navigator, when the F150 provided a basis for designing a new one and not have to start from scratch. Probably for a similar nonsensical reason that led Ford to dress up the 10 year old Focus, rather than use the European platform as a base for the 2008 edition.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Excuse me, but the Catera was a front drive Opel with some Caddy flourishes added. An okay car for sure, but it did not look like a Caddy and was not initially designed to be one.

    The CTS, however, was a Caddy-only platform right from the go-shot, and rear drive to boot. I'd say they bear little relationship to one another. A casual drive might not point out dramatic differences in the way they went down the road, but those differences were there. The CTS also defined style for Cadillac. The Catera never even looked like a Cadillac.

    The 2008 CTS will now have a world class interior (the one area where the CTS really didn't measure up to the German and Japanese competition).
  • Actually, the Catera was rear wheel drive, though it was based on an Opel. The CTS is on the GM Sigma platform, and is of course also rear wheel drive.
  • Errr The catera was RWD.

    Remember the Caddy that zigs commercials.

    It was actually a decent handling car just under powered, poorly built and with akward styling.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    My bad. You are so right: RWD. The Caddy that zigs had a weight problem, as I recall.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    A very good friend was an SA at a Caddy dealer during Catera days. The accepted internal name for the car was the "Craptera"
  • Ahh sounds much like our internal name for the freelander... Freeloader.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Which brings up another off-topic question...

    While Land Rover has improved on the Freelander enormously with the LR2 version about to be released, why-oh-why did they retain so much resemblance between the new one and the sorry old Freelander? The version about to be introduced does look a bit more substantial (and obviously is), but it looks a lot more like the old Freelander crossed with a Saturn Vue than it looks like its big brother LR3.
  • The LR2 doesn't share any components with the old freelander, it shares more with the S80 then any other vehicle currently being sold in the US, but the old freelander looked ok.

    The only two positive things I ever here anyone say about the freelander are...

    1. The outside looks. Most people like the styling.
    2. How it drives. When it is working anyway.

    Remember the LR2 is still called the Freelander 2 in Europe so it needs to look a little bit like the old freelander.

    Err on topic...

    Err lincoln is in bad shape err yeah. :(
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    I know it doesn't share any components with the old truck. So why still look like it does? Contrary to what you may think, the Freelander's looks did not sell it, because the styling was too much like the original Honda CRV, and about as substantial and pricey looking as a Ford Escape. It wasn't bad looking at all...it just did not look like $30,000+.

    Now, we get a new Land Rover that still looks like an attractive, small economy ute. The thing needed either a dose of butch, or looks that emulated the LR3 (or even the Range Rover). It looks like neither. Once you remove the baby, sort of, Land Rover grill, it could be anything from Japan or GM.

    Yes, Lincoln is in the worst shape of all Ford divisions, save Jaguar. Plans are to resurrect the bramd from its present mess, but it has to limp along with a second rate lineup for a couple years first.
  • Ehh that goes against what most people I talk to.

    I was just talking to a woman, less then ten minutes ago, today about her freelander and she loves the looks and the drives. She doesn't like the problems she has had with it but her problems have so far been minor... Knock on wood.

    I am going to the LR2 training towards the end of march beginning of April so I will get to see things much more in depth. I will see the car in person next week when one of our reps brings one in. According to the people I know who have been in the car the fit and finish are about on par with the Range Rover sport. So we are talking about a 35-40k vehicle with the fit and finish of a 60-75k vehicle.

    Oh interesting story on Jag here...

    Supercharged plan to save jag axed

    full article
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,673
    I have mulled over the "corners like a locomotive" phrase and cannot figure it out...does that mean it corners very well, like a good handling machine, or corners like a 1965 Caddy Brougham Boat???...:):):):):)
  • douglasrdouglasr Posts: 191
    The $880Mn to $1.2Bn that Ford Motor will receive for Astons can have an appropriate home: Revamping the Town Car/Crown Vic-Marquis chassis. Alex Troutman demanded, after a write-it campaign by Mustang owners pleading with the Ford CEO not to kill Mustang by rebadging from a FWD Cougar and making it at Flat Rock---Ford received 750,000 letters from people all over America---that the design team for Mustang spend: "$750 Million and not a dime more". The platform and heritage was saved, and now is a leading product at Ford once again.

    The efficacy of retaining the Taurus name needs no explaination, and it is only a surprise that A.R.M. did not order this on his second day on the job as CEO. The corresponding Sable wagon I owned was like the trucks: it got the job done without a lot of fuss. It was my "works" car, doing the skut work when I did not want to smirch up the Lincoln, in short a tough car. Therein Lincoln has the chance now to capitalise on the cash-brought-in.

    Using the funds from Astons to rekindle the Town-Car at St. Thomas on a crash "war-time" program directed by a special task force of "ARMS-MEN" in a basement studio turns the trick. It was done for Lincoln-Continental in 1958 for the 1961 model year. The full clay model was completed the last week of July 1958, approval given in August, and thence development began. Driving prototypes out of Wixom eighteen months later in December 1959. The rushed production of the '61 caused a late intro in November 1960, but well worth the waiting. The car saved Lincoln, and as I have outlined in detail previously, was under the threat of cancellation by Robert S. McNamara.

    Marek Reichmann, designer of Astons, created the "Rapide" four-door on a napkin. "The concept developed in sketches, eventually in clay,and finally in hand-beaten aluminum, It added another 40mm to the height of the DB9 as well as an extra 250mm in the wheelbase." TOP GEAR staffwriter Michael Harvey commented in a first review of the January 2006 Detroit Show Car. This was accomplished in six months. Work in earnest did not begin until the summer of 2005. Granted Rapide was a show car, and plans are afoot now to make it to production, but the car is real and whetted the appetites of potential customers.

    Mark S and Mark R have been borne of existing Ford Motor platforms, the one nondescript, and the other rather interesting. The same process used for Rapide, Mark S/R could be used to revamp Town Car. Though one can argue about the efficacy of spending money on a platform that is now rather long in the tooth, Cadillac has regained some of its cache because it re-entered certain segments of the market, and was badly hurt (to the benefit of Lincoln) when its stopped making RWD chassis. Its return to that format in part with the help of AWD has spurred its renascence. Lincoln can do the same, and would benefit from NOT having left the RWD market.

    Sales of the TC were increasing at the time of the St. Thomas announcement, pre-empting disaster when Ford announced closure of the venerable Wixom Plant. Thus while the Australian-Ford chassis revamp for a RWD TC moves on one page, the "full scale" Lincoln could remain on another. The ARMSMEN could do it with the Astons cash. This would also give the team a chance to drastically up-rate the now bland and dowdy looking interiors. Take a page from Martin Winterkorn at Audi who dramatically improved the QC levels and amenities found in their products.

    Like the 'Whiz-kids' before them a team of 'ARMSMEN' could be assigned point-projects that deserve critical levels of attention. Ford Motor has enough salaried staff on hand to devote 100 individuals every day to a single problem. If even 15% of those are engineers and another 10% designers, then the chance remains that Lincoln can lead the divisions and The Blue Oval back to a healthy status. It took eighteen months to get Willow Run up and running from a San Diego Hotel room sketch by Charles Sorensen, to the first KD units rolling off the line.

    Today we have the advantage of CAD/CAM, thus it is possible to bring out a new Town Car by the spring of 2008 as a 2009 model. The Australian derived project could be a spin-off model that will carry further weight past 2010. However, I still stick to my original "Springfield Plan" to build a state-of-the-art factory within the Continental United States (if Toyota and Nissan can do it, so can we...) to show the world what the Armsmen are really capable of. Such a factory would be the preserve of Lincoln and Continental, and like Astons, use variable "V/H" architecture in order to meet "swing" demand in the market-place as tastes, and economic realities change. Ford Motor could easily place existing revamped chassis into a new factory.

    ...not to mention the degree of benefit in announcing a "state of the art" factory devoted to Lincoln. The time required to get the factory up and running could also cloak development of a new car. Cadillac did that in 1927-29 when it developed the V16. Such an announcement would lead every major news broadcast in America. My question is: are the ARMSMEN up to the task?

    DouglasR

    (sources: Top Gear Magazine February 2006, WSJ, FT, ibid.)
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    will be entering the market in 2008. The manufacturer was a bit late entering the market, but has not wasted any time. This vehicle, previewed in the March 2007 edition of Motor Trend, looks to be finally the real deal - an American sedan that can compete with BMW and MBZ and Lexus and perhaps even vanquish them in competition.

    Now this could have been a Lincoln LS, had Ford had the intelligence and capability to improve on the FIRST American luxury sedan to encroach on the Teutonic territory of serious automobiles. But NO, as we all know, Ford gave up that market to the Germans, as they have given up the minivan market to the Japanese.

    Another American company, Chrysler, gave them a run for their money, albeit with the help of their new German overlords at Benz. But the 300, while a step up from the languishing LS, did not take the final steps necessary to meet the Euro and Japanese entrees head on.

    However, one American company has stepped up to the plate and proved that it has the mettle, the engineers, the foresight and the leadership of a real Car Guy to improve on their entry in the entro-lux field to the point where it may well be the one to beat in '08. That company is General Motors and the car of course is the 2008 Cadillac CTS.

    A revolutionary evolution of the Art and Science design theme that conceived the original CTS, this new version sports design details, quality materials and body work that oozes luxury. "You can see GM has spent serious money on this thing." praises MT. From the die-cast metal (NOT plastic) chrome vent near the A-pillar to new aluminum components in the suspension, this CTS has the look of class that Cadillac, Lincoln and Imperial have traditionally yearned to exude. This one does it.

    Drivetrains? It has em. Two 6-speed transmissions, one a manual, the other an automatic with paddle shifters on the steering wheel are available. At the outset, they will connect to 2 different engine options, both of which are based on GMs' 3.6 Liter V6. The base engine is DOHC VVT 24 valve w/258 HP. But the optional engine is the big news. 300HP from the same engine block using a first for an American gasoline engine - Direct fuel injection. Of course there'll also be a 500 or so hp CTS-v later. And Caddy is also spreading rumors of a coupe and a Sport Wagon.

    And we all know the CTS is RWD architecture as a true sports sedan should be. But this one will also offer AWD as an option. And a double moonroof. And HIDs that are computer-linked to turn with input from the steering wheel.

    Oh, and the interior is just beautiful. Two-tone with satin-aluminum accents and a center stack that puts anything Ford is doing to absolute shame. It features a SAT/NAV screen that telescopes UP out of the center stack when needed and perfectly in position for a driver to use, not buried just above or just under the radio like so many others.

    Price? Starts at about $31,000. Just a tad above the emm kay zee. Good luck selling that FWD Mazda clone against this actual RWD sports sedan, Lincoln.

    Yep, this is the car that the LS couldda wouldda shouldda been. With a 2 year head start on Cadillac, Ford still dropped the ball. Now Lincoln has a modified Mazda to sell (also previewed in this issue BTW, the best thing MT had to say about the emm kay zee was they liked it and its' name better than the Zephyr) and Caddy has "assured its' place as America's ONLY globally competitive luxury automobile." - Motor Trend.

    Way to go, Cadillac. My congradulations. My only regret is that I won't be able to afford one of these beauties.
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    using a first for an American gasoline engine - Direct fuel injection

    Naah, the Solstice turbo was the first from the domestics.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "Naah, the Solstice turbo was the first from the domestics. "

    Better tell MT then. THough I did leave one word out of that sentence and it could negate your point, though I dunno.

    "A first for an American-built engine" was the actual quote.

    WHere is the Solstice turbo built?
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Cool, guess MT didnt know that. I certainly didn't. I must add that the Solstice and the Sky are 2 cars I would consider replacing my LS with.

    Now, Back to the car that the LS should have been. That they promised early adopters that it would be ... real ... soon ... now for about 3 years,

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_news070108_2008_cadillac_c- ts

    then, in 2003, they sealed it's fate when they dropped the 5 Speed Getrag option. Instead of pushing a concept they might believe in, a roadster-sedan thing like the base CTS, they just bailed at the earliest opportunity. That's about when Jim Rogers, the Lincoln VP of Marketing then, must have seen the writing on the wall cause he split to a startup. That's California for ya.
    In any case, Jim was one of the early Lincoln people who seemed to "Get It". He lost and he left. At least that's how I remember the history.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,722
    the part left out is that the ls lives on as the mustang.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Only in spirit. And the floor pan and fuel tanks.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    And please take note of the Pontiac G8, due in less than a year. RWD, great styling (if a bit derivative of BMW), choice of engines. Shortly after the new CTS, and the introduction of the G8, GM will bring out a rear drive Impala with killer styling. GM has a good chance of rising above its mess. Ford is still on life support, and concepts like Interceptor and MKR do not change that, unless the company does something like Douglas suggests and gets a crash program in place to make those possibilities reality. GM is not showing us one off show cars. The Enclave, CTS, G8, Impala, 600 hp Corvette, Camaro, a ton of new Saturns, etc. are all in the pipeline.

    Ford is probably still arguing internally about whether the S Max, Galaxy, Mondeo should be Mercurys, or folded into the present lineup, or consolidated in the next generations of existing American cars. Meanwhile, they have some wonderful products right now (both here and abroad), but rather than bring in the ones Americans can't now buy, they continue to sell Crown Vics and Freestars (what the heck was wrong with the Aerostar name that "Windstar" was supposed to fix??) and 20+ year old Rangers. Why not stretch that Mustang wheelbase a few inches and get a Ford sedan on the road for 2008? Oh, yes, because they dithered around for years with the untrue excuse that the architecture couldn't be used for a 4 door. And that the 500 would one day be seen as more tasteful and timeless than the hot selling, controversial 300. Time to take my meds.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    "the part left out is that the ls lives on as the mustang."

    You obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

    Does the Mustang have Independent rear suspension?
    Does the Mustang have aluminum suspension?
    Does the Mustang have anti-dive suspension geometry?
    Is the Mustang a Sports Sedan?
    Does the Mustang have better-performing brakes and handling than the BMW 5-series?
    Has the Mustang spent ONE MINUTE being tested at Nürburgring?
    Does the Mustang share ANYTHING with the Jaguar S-Type?
    Can the Mustang seat anyone comfortably in the back seat?

    Please, the Mustang and the LS share almost nothing save maybe the radio. They are as much alike as a 747 and a biplane.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Posts: 1,046
    Good answer, gregg! :>)

    Gm has a TON of new exciting product. U mentioned most of them. I'd add the Soltice and Sky, the Acadia and most especially the 2008 Malibu. I was shocked to read that the present Malibu, one ugly, boring piece of rolling metal and plastic, outsells the Fusion by a huge margin. And the Fusion is Ford's big success story! Now, next year Chevy will be presenting for sale probably the best Malibu design EVER, both in and out. I can see this car challenging the CamCords for sales, let alone kicking the Fusions' butt.

    Now, I'm not running out and buying a GM product cause I know my history:>) I'll give them 2 or 3 years to see how the things are holding up. If the reliability looks reasonable, then GM will be my new American car company. I've only ever owned one of their products - a 1997 Tahoe and I must admit it was a trouble-free vehicle. Tough as nails too. Speaking of, the new GM full-size SUVs are also the ones to beat as well. GM has really turned around. I hope Ford can do the same. But I harbor many doubts.

    Oh, one nit, gregg, Ford doesn't sell Freestars anymore. They gave up on minivans. Decided they cant compete. I suppose they think their ne 'people movers' will pick up where the minivans left off? I dunno -there's a lot of soccer Moms who swear by the utility of the Town and COuntry, not to mention the Sienna and Odyssey. Selling them what amounts to an oversized Scion xB I think will be a huge challenge.

    You say that Ford has "some wonderful products right now". In all seriousness and to perhaps jump start this debate, can you name a few Ford products that would fit this bill? In all candor, I dont see ANYTHING. I look at anything they're selling and I can think of competition that outclasses it. Anything. Name one! GO ahead, knock this battery off my shoulder :>)

    Perhaps the ONLY class leader Ford has right now are the Escape/Mariner hybrids. And they're built on Toyota technology. The Mustang is also good, but it's days are numbered by the impending addditon of the Challenger and Camaro to the ring. Is Ford working on a Cougar? A well done Cougar which would be to the 2007 Mustang what the '67 Cougar was to the '67 Stang, is something that very well might end up in my garage. Except Mercury aint the "Sign of the Cat" anymore. Unless it's a PussyCat.
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