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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Oh, and speaking of Jaguar, the wraps are finally off the XF and the first guy to comment on it:
    http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=5002
    has a pretty negative opinion of what can be seen in pictures anyway.
    The funniest thing to me? Jaguar (undoubtedly spurred on by Ford) eschews sporty transmission interfaces as does, say, the mk-anything with it's D-L shift gate. The Jaguar version? D-S (for what, Slow?) Not only that, there isnt even a lever to control the gears, it's a freaking dial like a radio tuner. Brilliant. Have a look at the blog yourselves if u doubt me. A dial.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,476
    Its the S-Type platform with the 3.9 AJ-V8 from Jaguar. The automatic transmission was the same IIRC and from underneath it was hard to tell them apart. Later on the S-type got 6 speed auto which I assume is the same ZF unit that the XJ and XK use.

    I worked on both S-Types and LS cars and they are very similar cars to work on.

    Lincoln did their own styling for the LS, which I actually like over the S-type, but the platforms were the same. Very different suspensions on the two cars IIRC.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_LS

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_DEW_platform

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaguar_S-Type
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,683
    Buick and Lexus had a baby
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,476
    If they had just left the headlights the same I would have been ok with it. The roof line, grill, stance etc. I knew they would have to change to fit crash test standards and practicality.

    The headlights didn't need to be changed though and they are no good. They aren't horrible but they aren't good either.

    We are way off-topic now though.

    Lincoln is last and it needs a revamp program twice the size of Caddies in order to get back on track. Does Ford have the capital to do that?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    The DEW98 platform was jointly designed and each team did their own styling. Even the 3.9L engines had different parts and different displacements (3.9L vs 4.0 due to a 1mm difference in stroke).

    The MKS is as close to an Infiniti as any American car company has gotten and will likely get anytime soon. And it comes with SelectShift. Yes, it's AWD using a transverse engine but it should offer close to 300 hp with AWD and a 350+ hp option with the twinforce 3.5 or 3.7L.

    The MKS and other interim vehicles will support Lincoln until they can get the all new RWD platform jointly developed with Ford Australia. That's when you'll see a true LS successor.

    We all know that Ford screwed up royally with Lincoln the last 6-7 years. No need to keep repeating it over and over.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Thanks for chiming in, especially with the DEW 98 info that you and I already know, but b-r needs to get with.

    I agree wit you that we all know ... But it bears repeating so it is not repeated.

    As for mks being anything like an Infiniti, gotta diverge from you there. The G35 (to be G37 in 2008) makes 306hp (more in 2008) and powers the REAR wheels, is available with a MANUAL transmission and is priced about same as mkz. mks will be fwd, no manual option, under 306hp and cost probably at LEAST $10,000 more than the infiniti.

    No, it's Cadillac that competes with Infiniti, certainly not the mks. And Caddy competes NOW, not a year or more from now. Chrysler too with the 300, a very very bold and successful car. No manual, but Hemi and select shift.

    As for an LS successor, there will never be one. Never. Lincoln is a blue-hair car again for all time. The dealers cannot and willnot sell sporty cars with manual transmissions. The r will be a badge-engineered Falcon-Mustang, rather than a modified Jaguar. I will bet the bank right now there will be no manual transmission available in the r. And it will look like a Pontiac-steam engine. Sorry, I just dont see it happening to the good.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    No doubt, and you make good points. But I will repeat, I like the Pontiac steam engine look. It is bold and looks a bit menacing as well. However, you are right that the car underneath is unlikely to be competitive, as the stuff they are shooting at is already here and the target keeps moving. But at least the car won't look as bland as the Em Kay Zee...
  • bumpybumpy Posts: 4,435
    Lincoln is a blue-hair car again for all time. The dealers cannot and willnot sell sporty cars with manual transmissions.

    Aside from the V6 LS, what was the last Lincoln to have a manual transmission? Lincolns have always been stodgy blue-hair cars.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    You may like the steaming Pontiac look now, but wait til it gets out of the concept stage. Shee the Jag XF pix I cited above for an example. We all know the look will be toned down for "mass appeal"

    As for the mkz, I actually like the looks of it. But I've got 20 years or more before I'm in the demographic for it.

    And while I'm ranting, one more thing - why should we 'trust' Lincoln to do anything right in the future? The only thing they've done right in the last decade or more is the LS, and they couldnt or wouldnt make a leap to v2 with it like Caddy did with the CTS. Remember, there was no CTS when the LS was released. Now the CTS is world clss and the LS is history, ignored almost compltely for its 7 year run. Yet still outsold the mkz despite costing lots more. Progress? U be the judge.

    And why trust a car company that just throws badge-engineered slop against the wall as stop gap mesures instead of designing competitive vehicles. And I'm talking here about:
    Blackwood (HAHA.)
    zephyr (anyone who bought one of these should sue Lincoln)
    Aviator (reduce Navigator design drawings by 20% and try to remember not to put the Explorer drivertrain in at the factory. Turned out to be one of the WORST vehicles in history in terms of reliability. And to think they almost fooled me into buying one.)
    mkx - fancy edge for 10K more. Can't stop on a thousand dimes. Smaller than GM competitors, seats 2 or 3 less AND gets worse gas mileage.

    I'm just salivating to see the wunderbar station wagon on the way. Hello, Lincoln? Not many 70 year olds need beach wagons anymore...
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 814
    The Jaguar version? D-S (for what, Slow?) Not only that, there isnt even a lever to control the gears, it's a freaking dial like a radio tuner.

    Jeyhoe, I presume you are kidding but others may not realize that the "S" is for "sequential" and activates the steering wheel paddle shifters. While the dial is a bit unusual to say the least, the ZF transmission is a good one and it is claimed that in the XF, the shifts are even quicker than in the XK. I have read nothing but positive reviews on the transmission operation of the XK. Thank goodness the J-gate is dead and buried.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    As for the mkz, I actually like the looks of it. So ya like bland...not that there is anything wrong with that. :P
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    No, I wasnt kidding, just mistaken I guess. Took the TTAC guy's word for no manumatic. If you're right and S means steering wheel paddle shifters, well that's a good thing. Too bad the 'L' in the Lincolns doesn't mean 'L'eg clutch shifters.
  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,476
    That ZF tranny is amazing. It goes in all the real jags now, many BMWs, most Land Rovers, Aston Martins, and probably a couple I have forgotten.

    The Truth About Cars people in general don't know what they are talking about. Most of the reviews I read there are full of factual mistakes.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,257
    "As for an LS successor, there will never be one. Never. Lincoln is a blue-hair car again for all time. The dealers cannot and willnot sell sporty cars with manual transmissions."

    I couldn't agree more, nor could I feel worse about it. I returned a few weeks ago from a 7500-mile drive in my '00 LS (with a manual) that had 112K miles on it when I left & over 120K miles on it today, after a few more weeks of commuting.

    This has been my daily driver for over seven years, and the longer I drive it, the better I like it. I set off for Alaska in the thing & didn't have one single problem -- the car & I bonded yet again. I've enjoyed many wonderful drives in it.

    I'd hoped to be able to buy another when I tired of this one, but it'll never happen. I follow this thread to get some sort of feel for those who still think Lincoln has any chance at all of surviving.

    It's interesting.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,257
    ". . .a car company that just throws badge-engineered slop against the wall. . ."

    Thanks for an excellent turn of phrase. I take pleasure from using words effectively, and it appears you do as well.

    I've pointed out more than once that the G & CTS didn't exist when the LS was introduced & for the first couple of years after. It had the field to itself, and yet was still able to piss the concept, the vehicle & the future of Lincoln away.

    Pity.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Yep.

    My 01 Manual LS has 87K on it. Wife is the one using it as a daily driver last couple years. She was as big an advocate of getting the 5speed over the slush-box as I was. She loves the car and drives it like it should be driven but has become envious of those Infinitis she sees. I like the M myself. Will nevr own one though - out of my league. At least the V8 is, and that's what I'd want.

    I dont know what I'll do after the LS is gone. Actually thinking about driving a V6 manual Accord. Nice car for the $$$s.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 814
    The guy that wrote that article about the XF was a complete idiot. Criticizing the AJ V8 because it's HP is less than some sixes doesn't begin to tell the story. The AJ V8 is a smooth jewel with a broad torque band, ability to rev, and is as refined as any engine ever built. I would rather have one with 100,000 miles on it than a brand new higher HP V6. Besides the supercharged version makes 420 HP and is a torque monster as well.

    I mentioned the "S" stands for sequential. All of the press is now saying it stands for sport. My dealer gave me a photocopy of an internal document about the XF months ago and it referred to the "S" as meaning seqential shift. Apparently, they have decided that "sport" is more customer friendly. In any case, it enables the paddle shifters on the steering wheel.

    Sorry to get off topic - back to Lincoln...
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    Hey, Bruce, I think u have a strong case there about the TTAC article. I reread it and came away with an impression similar to yours. Sometimes those writers care more about alliteration than automobile nation.

    Right, who cares if it's a V6 or a V8? ANd the Jag engine is a great one, true. Almost as good as the Duratec in my 5 speed LS:>)

    And his other criticisms were not particularly well thought either. I do agree with one point though - the F needed to be a home run and it sure seems like it's a triple at best to me. Darn good, but maybe one run short of tying or winning. A dial? I dunno bout that one. The door handle's not flush? - meh! A 420hp Supercharged engine? Yikes! Gotta love that. How much is this thing supposed to cost with the 300hp AJ in it?
  • C & D is estimating $58K and MT is saying $56 - but the SV8 (420 HP) is about 10 grand more. That presents a problem for me. I hate the thought of spending that much for a car.

    Also, call me crazy but a vehicle's parent company and their history is important to me. With Jag, I love their British heritage and Ford's ownership but the future is just too murky for me.
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,426
    "The Mark LT had been scheduled for a major face-lift in fall 2009, but suppliers say the makeover has been canceled."

    Inside Line

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    RIP...it was a fake Lincoln anyway...
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,257
    ". . .a fake Lincoln. . ."

    What, these days, constitutes a "real" Lincoln?

    I believe I'm driving one, but it's extinct.
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    Thank goodness...
  • Another example of Ford's general incompetence.

    Remember when the Five Hundred was introduced, and all the Ford apologists tried to tell everyone their committee decided consumers don't actually want either styling or power?

    Isn't the Mark LT another chapter in the Mercury Maruder, Ford Thunderbird, Lincoln Blackwood story all over again?

    There IS a market for these vehicles, but rather than make a strong commitment to the product, they let the committees and accountants make the product so weak, it's DOA. After a year or two of adding minor features, the vehicle dies an early death.

    Really though, they didn't die, they were killed by incompetence. -- More manslaughter than murder.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    It was either drop it or change the name to MKLT.

    Another terrible waste of the precious time of engineers and designers. More badge-engineered slop -this time didnt stick to the wall very long.

    They probably need all those engineers etc to finish badge-engineering the Lincoln 'people-mover' that no blue hair will go near. My wife saw a picture of the flex the other day and her predicition is big flop. Mine too to tell the truth. Who's gonna buy that thing? Prolly will cannabilize other Ford products: Edge, Explorer, expedition, freestyle before winning any converts. That they're making a Lincoln one of these just blows my mind and I wanna scream WHY?????
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    The last "real" Lincolns were in the 60's.
    That is the problem.
    As long as all you are going to do is badge engineer,you don't give discerning buyers a reason to buy your product.
    GM learned that lesson w/ Caddy.
    CTS and STS are unique offerings.
  • volvomaxvolvomax Posts: 5,274
    First, you have to decide what lincoln really is.
    When I think Lincoln, I think of big comfortable lux sedans.
    Not trucks, not "people movers"

    The concept Continental would have been PERFECT.
    Too bad Ford didn't have the balls to build it.
    All those people driving Chrysler 300's would be in Lincolns.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,257
    "GM learned that lesson w/ Caddy.
    CTS and STS are unique offerings."


    Yeah, several of us thought the LS was Lincoln's "unique offering," in '99, 3-4 years before Caddy introduced the CTS.

    The ball wasn't so much dropped as shot at high velocity down the sewer. In any event, here we are, eight years on.

    I think Lincoln in doomed, but would be moderately pleased to be shown to be wrong.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    The Mark LT was nothing more than a way to give the Lincoln dealers more vehicles to sell. It cost almost nothing to produce and probably made $10K profit on each one. It would have to be redone to go along with the 2009 F150 update and now that the MKZ, MKX are out and the MKS coming next summer they don't really need it.

    Stop trying to make a mountain out of a molehill.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    With all due respect, and there is a lot due you, this truck thing is another example of badge-engineered slop. You call it 'nothing more than a way to give Lincoln ... more .. to sell', I call it badge-engineered slop. Other recent examples: Aviator and Zephyr. In none of these 3 cases was a proper job of product development done before the car was released in order that the money start flowing in. Was any thouight given to what the customer might need or want? Very little seems to me. THe only thought was - here's another way to make some easy money. So what if we alienate customers. At least this way we HAVE customers.
    Meantime across town, Cadillac developed the CTS into world class, developed their pickup truck into a thing of beauty and threw NO badge-engineered slop against the wall as a stopgap measure.
    Now, which is the proper way to do business you tell me?
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