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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    The Mustang is Good at straight line performance. But put it on a slalom course where handling is paramount the competition beats it

    I guess that's why it won it's very first Grand Am Cup back in 2005 - on a road course, with a live axle. Meanwhile the first CTS-V had so much wheel hop on launch it was comical.

    And I'm not saying that a Lincoln sedan should have a live axle - it shouldn't, but you can't say the Mustang is a poor handler because of it.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Take a pill, man. Slow down.

    The XJ as presently configured will not handle anything larger than the 4.2 engine. A RWD Lincoln sedan of that stature will need to be able to offer the 5.0 liter.

    Moreover, the XJ architecture is all-aluminum and cannot be shared with a steel car as the Audi A8 platform can.

    The 2010 XJ will not have an all new platform. It will have all new body styling and other upgrades to make it more competitive (hopefully). The new platform is several more years down the road, if Jag makes it that long. Rumor has it that Tata is really only interested in Land Rover, so Jag could be spun off or killed soon after the purchase, unless there is a miraculous turnaround in sales.

    Chrysler still is in major financial doo-doo. They may have some decent designs (and I still like the 300 a lot), but their quality and reliability are not up to par, and their interiors suck. The Sebring and Avenger are mediocre to awful and the same can be said for the Calibur. They need more than the new Journey to goose their sales. Magnum is dead, Pacifica is dead, PT Cruiser close to dead.

    The comparable Ford products to Malibu/Camry/Accord are the Fusion and Milan. The new Taurus is a full sized car and like the XJ would be quite competitive in its class, except for (like the current XJ) the dowdy styling.

    You are wrong about the Mustang's handling. But then comparing a Cobra (heavier four place coupe) to the lighter 2 seater Corvette is apples and oranges. Putting the Challenger (and Camaro if it ever gets here) up against the Mustang will be a more level field.

    I do have trouble understanding your point. Your scattershot approach is all over the place, as if all you want to do is throw enough mud to prove exactly what? That Lincoln is in trouble? Duh.
  • "The Mustang is Good at straight line performance. But put it on a slalom course where handling is paramount the competition beats it . "

    Do not agree with you on this one. Camry Solara and Accord coupe are not supeior to Mustang on slalom course. I am sure 100% that Mustang beats Solara.

    BTW Tata shareholders are very unhappy about purchase. They think Tata is wasting money and should better spend limited resourses on core business. It may happen that they would soon kill Jaguar or sell it to private equity. Or may be will not buy at all - 2 bnln $$ is a lot even for Tata.
  • What about fit and finish. How does the workmanship of the Mustang compare with the Toyota and Honda? Just think of what the new Camarro and Challenger could do!
  • Was that a Mustang that a consumer could buy from a dealer. Or was it spedially modified to compete with other race cars!
  • Chrysler shares too many platforms among its divisions producing cooking cutter cars What other manufacturer has too many platforms shared among its divisions producing cooking cutter cars? Tell me is Cadillac a better car than the present day Lincolns? Chrysler was taking orders for the Challenger SRT with a 450 hp Hemi at the Chicago Auto Show. Chrysler is planning to produce a 550 hp hemi for the Challenger.. The first Challenger SRT that came off the assembly line was sold by Barret -Jackson in January at their annual Arizona auction. Chevy had their Camarro at the Auto show that will be released in late spring to early summer. Does Jaguar have more experience in developing performance sedans or does Ford of Australia? About Mustangs handling. We will see when it is put through a road test comparing it to it new rivals by one of the auto magazines. Is the Fusion a better car than the Accord or Camry. If so, why did the Saturn Aura out score the Fusion in build quality and interior workmanship and have its drivetrain and its engines judged smoother running? In fact its engines are just as smooth as the Camry and Accord and its build quilty was deemed just as good. Don't take my word for it . I believe it was last years Motor Trend car of the year. Lincoln is not going to put a V8 into the MKR it s designed for a direct injection twin turbo V6. If you don't believe me look at the cars specs. Ford will only say that their is a 50 percent chance that the car will be produced. And the Ford 500/ Taurus is really an eye graber. Is it a match for the Toyota Avalon in quality and performance. is its engine as smooth as the Toyotas. Wait till Tata gets its hands on Land Rover only to discover that it needs a quality boost.
  • Cadillac does have a competitive 62000 thousand dollar sedan called the CTS V with a 550 hp motor.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Was that a Mustang that a consumer could buy from a dealer. Or was it spedially modified to compete with other race cars!

    Of course it was modified, but it still used the solid rear axle. And it was competing against IRS cars that had also been race modified. You said it couldn't slalom because it had a SRA and that's a bunch of hogwash.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Cadillac does have a competitive 62000 thousand dollar sedan called the CTS V with a 550 hp motor.

    No, that's a special edition of a $32,000 car. How can you take a platform built for a $32,000 car (that's the base price of the CTS) and put it on a $62,000 car? Didn't you just say that wouldn't work? So, which is it?
  • Because the platform was designed for the V series. Read motor trend
  • It was still modified. What about the standard version.?I believe NASCAR uses only the shells of a Chevy or Ford but has completly different engineering and drivetrains then the consumer version. And explain to me what is rear wheel hop in a car with independent rear suspension? I am not an automotive engineer but I am a mechanical engineer. That is a serious Question
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    "The Aussies have had IRS and big V8 engines for decades."

    Yeah, we all saw Mad Max.

    "Remember we're talking about a new platform being engineered specifically for a new Lincoln lineup - they're not taking an existing platform and using it as is."

    Sometimes I cant believe my eyes here. So you're telling us that Ford is spending a ton of money to develop a new RWD platform JUST FOR LINCOLN? (Aside - really? and how many of these RWD cars will Lincoln have to sell to amortize these costs?) And Lincoln will use it for a car with a BIG V8??? Perhaps you didnt get the memo but there's this thing called CAFE and it's going up to 35MPG in a few years and maybe over 40MPG in California and other states and maybe both will go much higher after one of the two business hating, SUV hating GLobal Warming believing demo-commies gets elected this year. But I digress.

    And this is being done while FORD IS TOUTING their new Eco-boost twin turbo engines that they're gonna use in everything to save gas because of the aforementioned CAFE? AND they decided NOT to use a V8 in their new 'flagship' the emm kay essssss for similar reasons? But now in this climate they just gotta have a big Lincoln with a big V8 while everyone else is downsizing?

    And of course TO TOP IT ALL OFF, you say this while all the time THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE OF THE WORLD'S BEST PLATFORMS CALLED DEW-98 into which they could slide one of these Eco-Boost engines and have a CTS/BMW competitor next Tuesday? With the development costs already paid? THIS MAKES SENSE TO YOU? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

    And then you say "In case Edward hasn't noticed - Ford is selling Jaguar so it would be stupid to start sharing a platform with Jag." (talking about the XJ platform here but no matter.) Well, in case YOU haven't noticed FORD has said it is planning to SELL VOLVO this summer, so I'll turn your logic on you and ask what sense it makes to share a platform with Volvo? (For the casual reader, 1/2 of today's "Ford" and "Mercurys" and "Lincolns" are riding on OLD Volvo platforms, the other half are riding on OLD Mazda platforms. Ford hasn't announced they're selling Mazda yet - CAUSE THEY DON'T OWN IT.

    I'm yelling because it's getting SO DEEP in here.

    Line forms at the rear for your Mazda-Lincoln or Volvo-Lincoln or Falcon-Lincoln. Just dont EVER look for a Jaguar-Lincoln again. A car like that is TOO GOOD for the Ford Motor Company.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Let me rephrase the part about Lincoln and a new platform: they're developing a NEW global RWD platform jointly with the Aussies. They know from the get-go that it will be used for Lincoln so it will be designed with that in mind. I think there will be multiple variants of the platform at different price points but that's just my guess.

    What they are NOT doing is taking a platform that was designed for a $25,000 car only and trying to use it on a $50,000 Lincoln. That's the difference.

    You don't hear Ford developing any NEW platforms with Volvo right now, do you? That would be stupid. D3 is now a Ford platform - the engineering is done and selling Volvo now won't affect that. But developing a brand new platform with a brand you're planning to sell would be stupid.

    If the MKS could use the new 5.0L engine then it would have one - probably as a low volume special edition. That engine will make close to 400 hp naturally aspirated. And it will be built in house and be much cheaper than an outsourced, low volume Yamaha V8 that only makes 315 hp. Ecoboost makes sense in the MKS and will probably be an option on larger Lincolns but that doesn't mean the public doesn't want a traditional large V8 as well.

    I'm tired of people complaining that Ford is making FWD V6 Lincolns and then complaining again when Ford says they're doing RWD V8 Lincolns. Pick a side and stick with it.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Let's see...

    Tell me is Cadillac a better car than the present day Lincolns? Yes. And no one here has so far claimed otherwise. (Was your question meant to be rhetorical, or don't you know?)

    Chevy had their Camarro at the Auto show that will be released in late spring to early summer. Nope. The Camaro won't be on sale until spring of 09.

    We will see when it is put through a road test comparing it to it new rivals by one of the auto magazines. Exactly what I said in an earlier post.

    Is the Fusion a better car than the Accord or Camry. I would say no.

    And the Ford 500/ Taurus is really an eye graber. I think you mean "grabber" but never mind. No one here thinks the Taurus is an eye grabber. That is its most obvious problem.

    Lincoln is not going to put a V8 into the MKR it s designed for a direct injection twin turbo V6. If you don't believe me look at the cars specs. You are referring to the one-off show car. Ford is not going to build that, so its specifications do not apply to the proposed RWD V8 sedan. However, what would be wrong with a 415 hp TT V6???

    Wait till Tata gets its hands on Land Rover only to discover that it needs a quality boost. I don't think that is news to Tata.

    And you point is?
  • Do you mean that the NASCAR version of the Fusion has front wheel drive as does the consumer version or is the vehicle mechanically completely different than the one in the showroom? Also what about the Quality of the Saturn Aura or Chevy Malibu as compared to the Fusion? Please answer
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Am I correct in thinking that English is a second language for you? That could be part of the communication problem. I will try to be more clear.

    The Crown Vic's present platform (dating back to 1978, updated in 1991 with only minor tweaks since then) was not designed with the Town Car in mind. Though the platforms were related, the Town Car had significantly more interior length and width, up until 1998 when it was given its last completely new body. At that time, though no actual body panels were shared, Lincoln moved the TC into a closer relationship with the existing Crown Vic, adopting the same greenhouse tumble home angle, which slightly cut interior width. In any event, the Crown Vic was not designed with the TC in mind, even if they did end up as corporate twins.

    The proposed RWD Lincoln is not first being designed as a Ford division car to be upgraded later to a Lincoln. If the Lincoln shares a platform with a Ford Interceptor, all the better for Ford and for the buying public. No one bitched about the Mark IV, Mark V and so on being diminished because the T-bird shared the platform (though there were many of us disappointed in that era to see the T-bird become such a big land barge).

    What will be will be. Joe is really burned out on Lincoln and Ford, and I don't blame him. Others here, myself included, wonder if Lincoln will have the chance to do some of the things it will need to do in order to continue long term operations, and will be able to do them quickly enough. No one knows that answer, but time will tell. Platform sharing as you know is done all over the world and up and down car classes (e.g., by your definition, your Bentley is a VW).

    Will they do the platform right? Recent past experience and Joe say no. I say I don't know, but I concede it is possible. But I have no idea what you are trying to say.
  • jeyhoejeyhoe Posts: 490
    I hate to be seen as beating a dead horse, but ...

    "You don't hear Ford developing any NEW platforms with Volvo right now, do you? That would be stupid. D3 is now a Ford platform - the engineering is done and selling Volvo now won't affect that. But developing a brand new platform with a brand you're planning to sell would be stupid. "

    Exactly how is the above paragraph different if we substitute Jaguar for Volvo and DEW-98 for D3? The fact is that Ford has decided that DEW-98 is TOO GOOD for Lincoln, which will now share ALL it's platforms with "Ford", by which I mean Mazda, Volvo and Australia. Is this not correct? My point is, had Fomoco wanted to keep Lincoln competitive with the real car companies, they could have done with DEW-98 what they're doing with the Aussies except they could have done it 2-5 years ago and had a CTS beater on the street at the same time as the Jag XF. But NOOOOOOO ... they have decided that Lincoln is NOT WORTH that kind of investment. Isnt that correct? And by extension, I have made the same decision. Lincoln is no longer worth my investment. And I'll stay here and beat this freaking horse forever if I want since Lincoln made fools of folks like myself and cdpin and many more who gave up on the LS years ago. Imagine we thought Lincoln was gonna be a contenda. We bought in and Ford packed up and left us.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Consumer Reports is not the automotive press. Is it? I don't' believe that they are concerned with performance

    You were talking about quality, not performance. Why do you keep shifting the topic?

    While Ford will have to wait a couple of years to have a platform that can rival todays Camry and Accord.

    There is nothing wrong with the CD3 platform - quite the contrary. The Fusion offers AWD which Camry and Accord don't. The 2010 model is due out in December (that's 10 months, not 2 years) and will offer 6 speed transmissions, AWD, hybrid, a new 2.5L I4, more powerful 3.0L V6 with better mileage, a new interior with exterior tweaks plus a sport package with 3.5L V6. Quality is already best in class - no reason to think this revised model won't be 100% competitive with Malibu, Camry and Accord.
  • cdnpinheadcdnpinhead Forest Lakes, AZPosts: 3,281
    ". . .business-hating, SUV-hating, (human-caused) Global-Warming-believing demo-commies gets elected. . ."

    Sad, true & funny in the bargain.

    I've finally mellowed a bit since coming to grips with having wasted the last 8 years of my automobile-owning life on my LS (so far as getting involved with a car/company with which I could develop a lasting relationship). That said, I'm still watching the train wreck cleanup effort that is today's Lincoln division.

    Sad, interesting & funny in the bargain.

    There's love, hate & indifference. I'm in the third mode, but it sounds like you're still in the second. In time. . .
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    It was still modified. What about the standard version.?I believe NASCAR uses only the shells of a Chevy or Ford but has completly different engineering and drivetrains then the consumer version. And explain to me what is rear wheel hop in a car with independent rear suspension? I am not an automotive engineer but I am a mechanical engineer. That is a serious Question

    If you look at a NASCAR rear suspension it is almost identical to the Mustang. It's the best SRA setup you can get right now. It sacrifices a little to IRS on uneven surfaces but it also has advantages in handling more power.

    But I wasn't talking about NASCAR - they don't even use Mustang imitations. The Ford NASCAR car is a Fusion. I'm talking about the Grand-Am Cup where they use production based cars. The new Mustang was rolled off the truck with no advanced testing and won the first race back in 2005.

    As for wheel hop - it's exactly what it sounds like. Under hard acceleration the rear wheels "hop", losing traction. It seems to be more common in IRS vehicles. The cause is not 100% clear - some say it's the suspension, others the tires or maybe the half-shafts. But several companies make kits for the 1st gen CTS-V to combat the issue. Do a google for "CTS-V wheel hop".
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Because the platform was designed for the V series.

    You walked right into that one. So let me get this straight - Cadillac can design a platform that can be used on a $32,000 sedan and a $62,000 sedan but Lincoln can't design one that can be used on a $25,000 vehicle and a $50,000 vehicle?

    And while we're at it - what about the $45,000 Corvette and the $100,000 XLR? Aren't they on the same platform? They even share drivetrain components.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Is the Fusion a better car than the Accord or Camry. I would say no.
    I'll even agree on this one - but it is close. The 2010 model with the new 2.5L I4 and 3.5L V6 and Hybrid will be very competitive if it gets the interior and exterior updates that are expected.

    No one here thinks the Taurus is an eye grabber. That is its most obvious problem.


    The 2010 Taurus is supposed to be just that - an eye grabber. There was a picture of Mulally in a Ford design studio with the Flex and in the background is a clay model of the 2010 Taurus (according to insiders). It's clear that they've totally changed the greenhouse - goodbye Audi. I think it will be as stunning as a Taurus can be. Too bad it didn't debut at Chicago as predicted - maybe we'll see it in New York.
  • Because it going to be designed for a Ford sedan and the Crown Vics present platform was desined wioth the Towncar in mind wasn't it? Please answer I do'nt believe that Cadillac is using a Chevy Platform.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Do you mean that the NASCAR version of the Fusion has front wheel drive as does the consumer version or is the vehicle mechanically completely different than the one in the showroom? Your question seems to imply you think we are all retarded. No answer needed.

    Also what about the Quality of the Saturn Aura or Chevy Malibu as compared to the Fusion? Fusion quality is second to none. It is better than even the very good Saturn Aura. The Malibu is too new for proper comparison. It looks as if it will be able to rival Fusion quality. Time will tell.
  • Ford has to wait for 2010 to have a vehicle that can rival a Camry or Accord! Gm has done it now. I believe the new Malibu was voted by the North America Automotive Writers as being the best newly designed auto. The article mentioned that the quality of its construction was as good and in some cases better than the Camry and Accord. Saturn achieved the same standards with its Aura last year! I know Ford has finacial problems but so does GM! Was'nt Mulally the CEO of Boeing. I believe that he said that there would be no market for the Airbus A380 Super Jumbo. I wonder what he would think there would be no market for in the automotive business! Just in case you haven't noticed The Corvettes platform is not shared with a 25000 thousand dollar Pontiac.
  • Really. the Fusion is second to none when compared to the Saturn Aura and Malibu. Well than I guess Road and Track , Motor Trend, Car and Driver are wrong when they mention that the fit and finish of the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu not to mention the smoothness of their engines are the best in their class. Don't forget the Lincoln MKZ is based on the Fusion.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Ford has to wait for 2010 to have a vehicle that can rival a Camry or Accord! Gm has done it now. I believe the new Malibu was voted by the North America Automotive Writers as being the best newly designed auto. The article mentioned that the quality of its construction was as good and in some cases better than the Camry and Accord. Saturn achieved the same standards with its Aura last year! I know Ford has finacial problems but so does GM! Was'nt Mulally the CEO of Boeing. I believe that he said that there would be no market for the Airbus A380 Super Jumbo. I wonder what he would think there would be no market for in the automotive business! Just in case you haven't noticed The Corvettes platform is not shared with a 25000 thousand dollar Pontiac. I'm sorry, but nothing you just wrote makes any sense at all as a reply to any of the previous posts. (BTW, I am not aware of any 25,000,000 dollar Pontiacs.)
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Really. the Fusion is second to none when compared to the Saturn Aura and Malibu. Well than I guess Road and Track , Motor Trend, Car and Driver are wrong when they mention that the fit and finish of the Saturn Aura and Chevy Malibu not to mention the smoothness of their engines are the best in their class. Don't forget the Lincoln MKZ is based on the Fusion. Road and Track is not wrong. Smoothness of engine is as smoothness of engine does. Aura and Malibu outdo Fusion in that regard. You asked about quality ratings. Don't forget MKZ is based on the Fusion??? Who forgot? And what's your point?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Do you mean that the NASCAR version of the Fusion has front wheel drive as does the consumer version or is the vehicle mechanically completely different than the one in the showroom?

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you really don't know anything about NASCAR. All NASCAR vehicles are the same underneath the skin - they all use 9" Ford rear ends, same transmissions, have purpose built tube frame chassis, RWD, Solid Rear Axle and a 350 inch pushrod V8 engine. To change a Fusion to a Camry all you do is replace the hood, fiberglass front end with stickers and swap the Ford pushrod 351 for a Toyota pushrod 351 engine. NASCAR hasn't raced a stock car in Sprint Cup for at least 20 or 30 years.

    And as Gregg pointed out the Fusion has been beyond reproach from a quality standpoint - not only is it the highest quality Ford ever produced but it beat out the Camry V6 and tied the Camry I4 and Accord for best quality midsize sedan at Consumer Reports, which is quite a feat considering CR's past bias towards Toyota and Honda (not that most of that bias wasn't earned).

    The Taurus is full sized and does not compete with the Camry and Accord.

    The part you don't seem to understand is that Ford is a TOTALLY different company than it was even 3 years ago. Mark Fields was not responsible for the 2005 Five Hundred body which is still used by the 2008 Taurus. Mulally wasn't in charge back then, either. If it wasn't for those 2 we wouldn't even have a chance of Lincoln getting a new purpose built RWD platform. Even the MKS was designed and locked in before Fields - the only thing they had time to change was the grille.

    Starting this year with the Flex and later this year you're starting to see what the NEW Ford is capable of. So far they have the right attitude and product plans (merge the CD3 and EUCD platforms, merge the NA and Euro Focus platforms, merge NA and Aussie RWD platforms, share more truck and SUV platforms, add new technology (MKS, Sync), add a new B car). The only question left is will they go far enough and will they execute on all those plans and can they keep the company together long enough for that to happen.
  • I was pointing out the Gm is also having financial problems and is still producing better cars then Ford. Gm realizes that it can't wait to see what its rivals are going to do. In a few years the Camry and Accord will be re-engineered to surpass the Aura and Malibu. The CTS has reached parity with its rivals. While Ford will have to wait a couple of years to have a platform that can rival todays Camry and Accord.
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