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Where Is Ford taking the Lincoln Motor Company?

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Comments

  • alman08alman08 Posts: 282
    You don't need to embrace anything about whatever old culture in regards to Tata. Just know that at the present moment they have the $$$ and power to buy both Jag and Land Rover.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    Ford needs to take Lincoln hard and fast into the BMW/Lexus/Mercedes realm. Drop Mercury and take these funds and funnel them into Lincoln. Build 3 or 4 all new luxo models for Lincoln. First a small SUV, a BMW 3 fighter, a Mercedes 5 series fighter, then a luxo cross over of sorts. Bring Lincoln back into the great car company it once was. No more re-badged Fords!!!! Show the world Americans can build luxo cars that can compete and beat the best of Europe or Japan. Its time Ford.. are you listening???
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,683
    They have the power and money to buy Ford's second hand goods. Still not a true contributor to automobiledom....and still not worthy of my admiration in terms of cars. An impressive multinational conglomeration, but not a contributor to automotive progress...not yet anyway, and I won't hold my breath ;)
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    Ford needs to take Lincoln hard and fast into the BMW/Lexus/Mercedes realm.

    Even if they wanted to do that, where are they supposed to get the money for these all new luxo platforms?

    There is nothing wrong with global platform sharing if it's the right platform. And that doesn't mean re-badging. The MKS is NOT a rebadged Ford - it just shares the same platform with the Taurus and there is only so much that can be done with that platform. It's not the ideal platform for Lincoln but it's all they have right now and it's definitely not a rebadge.

    Ford has to solidify the Ford brand first - that should be done in another year or so with the Fiesta, new Focus and new Explorer. Then they can put more money into Lincoln. But it has to be done logically over time and with a good business case. The last thing Ford can afford right now is to lose money chasing prestige.
  • carolinabobcarolinabob Posts: 495
    I seriously considered an MKS, but too many questions re: quality and too many Taurus parts right now. I want a Lincoln that is a Lincoln.
    Ford needs to develop a stand alone RWD platform for Lincoln and then equip it comparably to Lexus LS 460, Hyundai Genesis, Acura RL and Infiniti M. Give it the LS 460 ride that many Americans want in their American luxury cars.
    Next Ford needs to cancel Mercury as a brand. Not since it was created in the 30's has it ever been more than a high priced Ford, which was ol' Henry's intention in the first place. In the 50's/60's, it did have different bodies and more Lincoln parts, but now it is a rebadged Ford.
    At the same time, combine all dealerships into Ford-Lincoln and NO Lincoln Trucks, Mega SUV's, etc. Focus on luxury and prestige for Lincoln.
    Oh, and get rid of the too similar make names. Nobody I know knows the difference between MKS, MKZ, MKK, MK Mouse, etc.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    That may be true regarding Tata succession, but it is also true that Ratan Tata is gay and coupled, and AFAIK, India still does not allow gay marriage. BTW, Tata is now truly a company to watch as India more and more enters the world stage. And I would not hesitate to buy a Jaguar. The quality of the XJ sedan is impeccable.
  • speculatorspeculator Posts: 116
    What are the differences that seperate the MKS from the Taurus besides body style and interior? It can't be options or standard equipment. The items that are standard or optional on the MKS could also be offered on the Taurus.
  • speculatorspeculator Posts: 116
    I read in the business section of the Chgo Tribune that TaTa may be trying to sell Jaguar and Land Rover. Ford should have sold Volvo to BMW when it had the chance about a year ago for about 6 billion dollars. The rumours were at the time that BMW wanted to convert Volvo back to rwd and didn't want Ford to use present Volvo technology and platforms without a license agreement That's what spoiled the deal. Ford sold the wrong company. Jaguar went for about 800 million. A pittance compared to the BMW offer for Volvo.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,673
    FWIW, I happen to check the Tata website at the reco of another poster, and they no longer show an XJ sedan under the Jaguar portion of the site...have they given up the XJ8 and XJ8L???
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    ...Lincoln has to dump the meaningless alphabet soup names! MKZ? MKX? MKS? What the heck is that? Bring back names like Continental, Mark III, Town Car, Zephyr, Cosmopolitan, etc. Lincoln should not aspire to be BMW. People who buy Lincolns don't want BMWs. This is a Lincoln:

    image

    or even this!

    image

    I will take either of these over the stubby MKS or some stupid crossover or a Mazda 6 with a cheap hood prop rod masquerading as a Lincoln!

    Lincolns are supposed to be big, massive, stately, opulent, elegant, powerful, intimidating-looking cars that say "Get out of my way!" Not this crop of almost apologetic looking junk!
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,431
    I had a hatch hit my head one time because one of the hydraulic cylinders lost its gas and failed.

    I feel a bit safer checking my oil with a rod or prop holding the hood up. :P

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  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    Yeah! Whatever happened to a properly counterbalanced hood with good old-fashioned spring-loaded hinges? Cheap beancounters! Hope they all get buried in cardboard caskets and dumped into mass pauper's graves!
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,431
    Those things outweighed props by a factor of 88. :)

    There's nothing wrong with a simple solution, especially concerning part of the car you don't access all that often.

    When I destroyed the trunk "torsion bar" thingamajigs in my old Tercel, a broomstick substituted nicely.

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  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,683
    The counterbalance-spring method is still used by MB I think...that's what all of mine have had. On the fintail it makes a satisfying quiet creak when you open it. Old tech is the most elegant solution for this issue.

    I noticed the used Camry my mother is looking at has a hydraulic prop, her Tauri have had these too I think.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    There's nothing wrong with a simple solution, especially concerning part of the car you don't access all that often.

    That's what I keep telling these guys, but some people just have a fixation on the prop rod and will complain about it to end, regardless of how well the rest of the car is designed.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    What are the differences that seperate the MKS from the Taurus besides body style and interior?

    Base engine (3.5L vs. 3.7L), some options (auto cruise control and auto parallel parking - I think, THX stereo), better interior materials, sound deadening, etc.

    The Taurus was developed 100% under the new mgt regime (in only 2 years I might add) and represents a new strategy for Ford. The Taurus has features that you would have only seen on a Lincoln just a couple of years ago. Look for the MKS to also move more upmarket - but they can't do much more with the drivetrain on the current platform other than to give the base 3.7L direct injection and 300 hp.

    The point was that the MKS was not a rebadge job. It has 100% unique sheetmetal (as does the Taurus) and a different interior, suspension tuning, etc. The Fusion and Milan are definite rebadges. The Fusion and MKZ are in between - they still share drivetrains and some sheet metal (doors, roof) but not interiors or front and rear clips.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Yes, a re-badge is just that. Slap on a badge and a few detail differences. There have been extreme examples of it, like the Plymouth Neon and Dodge Neon. However, companies often over the past few decades have rebadged by doing a different front clip or at least the grill (that's all the Mark LT initially received for differentiation in front), different tail lights and varying the interior trim slightly.

    It is a continuum of course, when the basis is the same platform, but I don't think anyone calls the Edge a rebadge of the Fusion or Mazda6. I don't think most people would call the Flex a rebadge of the Taurus or the Taurus X.

    VW gets a lot of mileage out of the same platform (e.g,, Golf, Jetta, Beetle, TT, A3, various Skodas and SEATs). Taurus and MKS are at least as different as the VW Golf and Audi A3.

    Let's give Ford credit for going the differentiation distance on this one, rather than saying, like they used to "who will notice if we re-use the same fenders and doors?" The other factor is that Taurus has definitely moved upmarket from the 2000-06 models. It competes more with Avalon than Camry. It is like when VW included upmarket Audi components on VWs. It did not cheapen Audis so much as give VW sedans the reputation of having some of the nicest trimmed interiors on the market.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 814
    There's nothing wrong with a simple solution, especially concerning part of the car you don't access all that often.

    Good point. While they are at it, they could use a piece of wire to hold up the exhaust system. You don't look under the car much and that would be simpler than the hangers they currently use. ;)
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    combine all dealerships into Ford-Lincoln and NO Lincoln Trucks, Mega SUV's, etc. Focus on luxury and prestige for Lincoln.

    So does that mean the Lexus LX-470, GX-470 and the Mercedes GL450 must go also? If they can produce them, why shouldn't Lincoln, since they virtually created the genre anyway with the Navigator??
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,673
    I guess the question should be...how thin can they spread themselves and stay financially viable???...just how many Lincoln pickup trucks do they sell???...Lexus seems to be economically viable, so they can sell as many models as they want, but Ford/Lincoln have limited funds from which to draw on to make a limited number of models...

    IMO, that would include specialty cars...those fancy Ford GTs are nice, but Ford does NOT need simple promotion of something that no one buys, they need something to keep the plant humming, and I also doubt that Lincoln pickup trucks will do it...

    Similarly, Dodge does not need the Stealth, as few people buy it, and I am sure that few people actually walk into a dealership to look at one, only to buy a 300...they do not need flash anymore, they need to make something that buyers will buy...the flashy cars that used to draw them in probably do not work anymore, as buyers are, IMO, becoming more practical...I can assure you that when I needed to buy my Dodge pickup truck, it wasn't the Prowler that drew me to the showroom... ;) :shades:

    BTW...I hate to agree with lemko, but they need to drop the letter models...I consider myself a carnut, yet I do not know the difference between MKS, MKZ, MKX, and whatever...to intentionally confuse the buying market, to me, is NOT the roadway to success...at least DTS and STS came FROM Seville and Deville, but the MK's make no sense at all...

    Just my 2 cents...
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 40,431
    While they are at it, they could use a piece of wire to hold up the exhaust system.

    Sounds like the voice of experience, lol.

    Ford is going to sell 300 million new shares of common stock. So those people who bought in to the company to take advantage of Ford's new found respect garnered by not taking bailout out money may find their holdings watered down.

    Maybe it won't matter though if Ford keeps making the right moves. The latest is to confirm that Lincoln dealers will indeed be combined with Ford ones, at least in urban areas:

    Ford Reduces Urban Dealers, Lincoln-Mercury Outlets (windsorstar.com)

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  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    I guess the question should be...how thin can they spread themselves and stay financially viable???...just how many Lincoln pickup trucks do they sell???.

    Actually, way more than necessary to make it profitable - since the truck is only a made over F-150, their break even number is 2500 per year. They way exceeded that each year..

    Lexus seems to be economically viable, so they can sell as many models as they want, but Ford/Lincoln have limited funds from which to draw on to make a limited number of models...


    BTW...I hate to agree with lemko, but they need to drop the letter models...I consider myself a carnut, yet I do not know the difference between MKS, MKZ, MKX, and whatever...to intentionally confuse the buying market, to me, is NOT the roadway to success...at least DTS and STS came FROM Seville and Deville, but the MK's make no sense at all...

    Well, I agree with both of you - I also think they need to drop those stupid MK names that some advertising agency sold them on. And FYI, the MK came from the MARK line, and was originally intended to be pronounced "MARK", not EMM KAY, but of course, the public didn't follow instructions, and the EMM KAY designation naturally followed. They are stupid.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,673
    I did realize that the MK was descended from the Lincoln Mark series...didn't they get up to Mark 6 or 7 (oops, I mean VI or VII?)...
  • nvbankernvbanker Posts: 7,285
    They got up to Mark 8 (VIII), and had a Mark 9 on the drawing board, based on the Lincoln LS/Jaguar S Type/Thunderbird platform, but it never made it into the steel. It was nice enough looking, and probably would have been quite the competent car, but large coupes were a tough sell then, and the numbers were not there to make the case to produce it.
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 814
    I think some of you guys are a little to hard on Lincoln - especially the MKS. As a bit of a RWD purist, sure, I would prefer a dedicated RWD platform. I would also prefer the MKS to be lower and better proportioned. However, the current generation D3 platform is very good. When equipped with AWD, any hint of torque steer is gone and unless driven like a maniac, the ride/handling tradeoff is pretty d--- good for a car of this type.

    Instead of complaining that the MKS is on a Taurus platform, we should be saying how great it is that the 2010 Taurus is on the MKS platform. Early reports indicate that the SHO is quite a good handler. It might have been wise for Lincoln to offer a sportier version of the MKS with the SHO suspension tuning. It would fare better in magazine comparisons.

    The MKS will not handle like a BMW nor is it an isolation chamber like a Lexus. Not unlike Ford products in earlier years, the MKS strikes a compromise. Buyers who want the last ounce of handling prowess will complain. Buyers who want a rolling living room couch will complain. However, a good share of buyers in the middle will like the compromise Lincoln has made.

    As much as I admired the 60's and 70's Lincolns, luxury buyers today have much different priorities - more high tech, more edgy styling, and better handling. I think the MKS does pretty well at addressing the needs of todays mainstream mid-luxury buyer.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    I think the MKS does pretty well at addressing the needs of todays mainstream mid-luxury buyer.

    Yeah, but it looks awful and I want a V-8! If the deck was a bit longer it would look a lot better. That trunk chopped-off just aft of the rear wheels makes the car look too stubby.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    The car is definitely long enough for today's size large cars, but it would have looked far better had they trimmed the long front overhang and added those extra inches to the rear. Even three more inches back there would have made the trunk opening much more useful. Long front overhangs are beginning to look quite dated. Trim ones look sharper now.

    Ford has a tendency toward long overhangs in front and has for decades. The Mustang goes against that trend somewhat, but overall someone in design is demanding big schnozzes. That is one of the problems with the Flex. In making it a bigger vehicle than the Fairlane concept, they also felt the need to enlarge the front overhang by quite a bit. It would have looked better had they designed the bumper and grill with a bit less sheet metal and air space.
  • euphoniumeuphonium Great Northwest, West of the Cascades.Posts: 3,326
    The timing and throb of a V8 can not be duplicated by a V6 & I prefer a V8 too.

    Having grown up with balanced design that included more rear deck, perhaps the following will be helpful.

    http://www.billsretroworld.com/cars.htm :)
  • brucelincbrucelinc Posts: 814
    I agree the deck looks too short. The wheelbase is too short in comparison to the overall length and height of the car, too.

    I like V8s, too. However, when the twin turbo MKS is available this summer, you should take a spin in one of them. I have a feeling that the low end torque will make you think they put a 460 under the hood. If it is smoothness or sound you are worried about, I don't think that is an issue, either. The way the engine is mounted, the much different gearing, the direct injection and turbos will have a positive impact on sound quality.
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