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Tariffs to Help Domestic Manufacturers?

"Green Plastic"

"Mitsubishi Motors has dubbed its independently developed plant-based resin technology, including this PBS-bamboo fiber resin, "Green Plastics". Mitsubishi Motors will continue to promote the development of environmentally friendly materials, directed toward increased practical applications."

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/02/20/211059.html

It's cool to see Mitsu getting some much needed attention on this. Even with the struggles they have been going through, they still manage to innovate... Kudos.
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Comments

  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    That is pretty cool.

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    The Eclipse is selling very well. It must be nice having a government that believes in keeping a company afloat when bad times hit. Those workers get to keep a job and hell they do make a few nice cars. Mitsubishi would be a great edition to GM, and would give them a great advantage for selling small cars, and the best turbo design, since it's looking like $3 dollar gas is here to stay based on what Lou Dobbs has said. :sick:

    Rocky
  • brightness04brightness04 Posts: 3,151
    Outsourcing wouldn't be a political issue if domestic jobs are abundant. In reality, having people in other parts of the world working for us, making products and services available to us, is probably a net plus for us, to put it mildly.

    The real advantage of flat-tax is two fold:

    (1) Simplifies tax collection and book keeping; so people can go ahead do more real wealth creation instead of dickering over taxcodes, looking for and creating loopholes.

    (2) Help the poor become part of the liberty-loving coalition. When a new business is not started, and a set of new jobs are not created, the poor are the ones who pay the ultimate price by losing another precious opportunity to lift out of poverty. Very few business pay workers less than 13% of profit. Yet that's how little the government business pays the poor out of money collected in their name. If a charity paid out that little out of total collections, it would be under investigation for fraud.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    It's no Evo: catching up with the 2008 Mitsubishi Lancer

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/GeneralFuture/articleId=116193

    Mitsubishi Concept-X

    Boy I love this cars design...Very sporty and it's performance is breath taking. Mitsubishi needs to make the EVO-X concept look just like this and give it a great interior with some creature feature "gadgets" :shades:

    http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/107458/page005.html

    The Mitsubishi Evo X Concept Redefines Cornering

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Features/articleId=109902

    Rocky

    P.S.

    If Mitsubishi, delivers a Concept-X along with a great comfy interior and Subuaru WRX STI performance I will have to at least give it some consideration because you get a helluva lot of performance for your dollar. The subie is a hair small for me to get the kids in and out of and I can't get past its ugly nose. :(
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    It must be nice having a government that believes in keeping a company afloat when bad times hit.

    When you say government you mean taxpayers, right? How big does a company need to be for it to deserve taxpayer support? Should the government have stepped in when all the dot.coms went under or are you primarily sympathetic towards union companies?

    Actually I think that Mitsubishi has somewhat seen the light that Ford refuses to see. They need to be an innovative company to stay in business. They won't out compete Toyota at their game.

    I owned a 1990 Eclipse turbo. It was an absolute blast to drive for a front wheel drive but from a quality perspective it was a piece of garbage. That was a joint Mitsubishi/Chrysler effort so maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know much about the new Eclipse other than it weighs more than it should (over 700 lbs heavier than 1990 model).
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    How many jobs did those dot.coms support ? I mean really we are talking apples to oranges in size comparison to a major automaker. The government doesn't need to step in financially put politically. ;)

    Rocky

    P.S. Mitsubishi, has always been a good innovator of performance hardware. Now only if they would step up the quality dept. ;)
  • john_324john_324 Posts: 974
    "How many jobs did those dot.coms support ? I mean really we are talking apples to oranges in size comparison to a major automaker. The government doesn't need to step in financially put politically."

    What does that mean, to step in politically?
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Change the trade laws and hold the country's like Japan, that manipulate there currency's accountable. Japan's market is very much closed to american goods.

    Rocky
  • john_324john_324 Posts: 974
    How would you say we should hold them accountable? Do you mean we should close our market to Japanese goods?
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I'm saying we should tariff their products at the estimated manipulation rate of somewhere between 30-40% to help even out the playing field for the domestics

    Rocky
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    Let's take Ford for example. I'd be somewhat surprised if they still exist as we now know them in 10 years. It's not due to tough times its due to their inability to compete. How would government intervention change that? How would an open Japanese market help an automaker that's not producing relevant vehicles. It's not the government's role to force the taxpayers to keep non-competitive companies alive simply as a jobs program.
  • tpetpe Posts: 2,342
    I'm saying we should tariff their products at the estimated manipulation rate of somewhere between 30-40% to help even out the playing field for the domestics

    Are you talking about Japan or China in regards to currency manipulation? I've heard that about China but I guarantee a lot more US automobiles are sold in China than Chinese vehicles sold here. That probably won't always be the case but it is now. A lot of the Japanese vehicles are manufactured in the US. How would you put a tariff on them?

    If you want to address all the major reasons that domestic automakers aren't as competitive you can't ignore the UAW's role. I suspect that this tariff you propose is merely an indirect method of subsidizing the auto union.
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    I agree but when your government sells the home team down the toilet and tax payers have to help front the bill for a new foreign plant is plain wrong. We have allowed the Japanese to take advantage of our country. They lobby our politics to get favorable laws passed for them. Years of them having not only currency advantages but us not having a national healthcare plan also hasn't helped our domestic manufactors out. Some also would blame over regulation as another cause. The Japanese flat-out have had advantages of being relatively young and are able to build new modern plants at tax-payers expense. They left japan because they new they could get americans to work like slaves because we are the best overall workers in the world and ask little in return in the form of compensation. Now many in the public say Toyota and Honda are more american than Ford and GM. They use the famous line that Toyota and Honda, aren't sending there workers to the unemployment line. That is true but like i said when you have all the advantages of timing and a foreign government and media helping you out its not that hard to obtain success and have enough extra money to put a few bucks more into a car and still make thousands more than the home team. ;)

    Just my $0.02

    Rocky
  • john_324john_324 Posts: 974
    Okay, let's say the United States puts a 35% tariff on incoming Japanese-made automobiles...this effectively raises the price of a Japanese car by 35%.

    How would this help Ford?
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    Are you talking about Japan or China in regards to currency manipulation?

    Both..... Japan and China are among the best at hiding there true currency values. I've read several different publications from various sources saying both country's manipulate it as high as 38%.

    I've heard that about China but I guarantee a lot more US automobiles are sold in China than Chinese vehicles sold here.

    Well for a few years any ways, right :surprise:

    That probably won't always be the case but it is now. A lot of the Japanese vehicles are manufactured in the US. How would you put a tariff on them?

    I wouldn't because they are becoming more "american made" which is great but many more of them are still made in Japan. I however would cut-off the tax exemptions the new plants are getting. Don't quote me but the San Antonio Toyota plant is getting like 300 million in tax exemptions. That is insane. :surprise:

    If you want to address all the major reasons that domestic automakers aren't as competitive you can't ignore the UAW's role.

    As we've discussed in several other forums the Japanese and European labor unions make the UAW look like pussycats.

    I suspect that this tariff you propose is merely an indirect method of subsidizing the auto union.

    No its a way of saving small business which creates jobs. I want to save my country and its workers from low cost 3rd world countrys. Joe-six pack shouldn't have to compete with some guy in china both in small business and labor rates. If you haven't noticed the U.S. standard of living has gone down. People are making less money now then they were a few years ago. It wasn't until this year we saw a small spike back up in real wages but we have lots of catching up to do. It's just not wages where your average american has been squeezed but one needs to look at the benefits package also. American employers can't afford healthcare costs, let alone fund pensions or match 401K's. We are going through a very bad time and hopefully we will pull our head out of our butt and say wait a minute !!!!!

    Rocky
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    It would help ford because they could afford to stick a few bucks more into the product and make it more competitive. It would allow the domestics to play on a more level playing field. Japan, isn't as big of a worry as the chinese because over there they pay workers $0.43 an hour.

    The currency manipulation of the Japanese, Japans closed markets because they are nationalistic, no national healthcare in the united states, and a U.S. government that has fostered japanese investment has damaged the competitiveness of the domestics. The domestics have been in business almost or over 100 years. Many old plants still exist. If I wanted to point the finger at anyone i'd point it at GM and Ford management in the 1970's, 80's, 90's, for not adopting to the changes. How could ford let the very popular Taurus just wither away and die is beyond me ????? :mad:

    Rocky
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,824
    Since we've veered well off the original track, I've made a discussion title change. Thanks for keeping this discussion automotive-focused as we continue the political/economic conversation!

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  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,824
    And Mitsubishi engines in the 1980's turned "Dodge" into a verb rather than a proper noun for our family - it's what you should do when encountered with the opportunity to purchase one.

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  • john_324john_324 Posts: 974
    So you'd imagine that Ford would use this "breathing room" created by an bigger price differential to up the content/quality level of its products?

    I notice that even now in this supposedly unequitable environment, the average Japanese family sedan (for example) is more expensive than the comparable Ford. Yet people still buy these Japanese cars, in shocking amounts even...

    I suppose the big question is: is "helping out" Ford by lessening its competition going to make it more, or less, competitive?
  • rockyleerockylee Posts: 14,011
    So you'd imagine that Ford would use this "breathing room" created by an bigger price differential to up the content/quality level of its products?

    Based on what little I know about Alan Mulally thats all he would need to turn-around ford way sooner.

    I notice that even now in this supposedly unequitable environment, the average Japanese family sedan (for example)is more expensive than the comparable Ford. Yet people still buy these Japanese cars, in shocking amounts even...

    Well thats not hard to imagine because you can spend a few more thousand and buy a toyota that is probably a better vehicle and do to the perception of such it will hold its resale value. Again a marginal savings by going domestic doesn't reflect the "big picture" ;)

    I suppose the big question is: is "helping out" Ford by lessening its competition going to make it more, or less, competitive?

    Japanese makes would still sell at a high rate because americans would still pony up the extra change to buy one. However the "breathing room" would allow ford to become more competitive and profitable per unit. The detnews had a big article about currency manipulation a few weeks ago and on some models the manipulation gap is a staggering $9K :surprise:

    Rocky
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