Honda Fit

backy

I owned one of those Civic hatchbacks with 70 hp, and it was a great little car--for 1985. It got 40+ mpg because it was small, light, low powered (with a carb), and had a stick shift. Nowadays you can buy a much bigger four-door sedan with twice the power and much more in terms of features for about the same money, or even less (in constant dollars) that also gets over 40 mpg. The four-year-old Civic, with its standard 115 hp, needs to "pony up" to keep up with this competition. Horsepower isn't everything, but when the competition offers more powerful, faster cars with a lower price, equal or better features, and equivalent quality and fuel economy, it's a gap Honda must cross if they want the Civic to stay near the top of the compact class.

This is why I am looking forward so much to the Fit. It will have the plusses of their hatches from decades past, but the advantages of a larger, more modern car and pricing (I hope) in the same ballpark as Korean competitors. It will be a winning formula, and I can't figure out why it's taken Honda so long to bring the Fit here.

robertsmx

Not sure which 4-door sedans getting 40+ mpg you're referring to (besides Civic Hybrid and Prius), but Fit may be able to deliver mileage in the 40s without compromising much performance (I expect 0-60 in about 9.0s with 110 HP engine). That may hold its key to success besides that it is supposedly a decently sized car (on the inside), handles well, and in a small package with utility.

As far as Civic is concerned, I'm sure Honda has a pretty good idea of where it wants to take it next. I'm guessing 120-130 HP for base Civics, 140-160 HP for EX, and about 200 HP for Si (which may not happen with the launch, but a year later, as has been typical of Honda).

backy

The Civic can get 40+ mpg on the highway of course. Also the Corolla (130 hp), Mazda3i (148 hp), and Elantra (138 hp) 5-speeds (for three) can all get 40+ on the highway. The Corolla is EPA rated at 40 I believe; the Mazda3i got 42 highway in CR's recent tests; and I know the Elantra can get over 40 because I own two of them. All of these cars are pretty quick also, under 8.5 seconds 0-60.

raychuang00

I think what is important here is that the because the Honda Fit is due for new version for the 2006 model year anyway it would be of interest of Honda to introduce the new version at the 2005 Detroit International Auto Show in January 2005. I do think the engine will be a 1.5-liter I-4 i-VTEC engine based off the newer L-series block with direct injection, essentially using the technology from the K20B engine. That means 115-120 bhp (SAE) output with very low emissions and very good fuel economy, probably almost as good as the 1.3-liter I-4 i-DSI engine now used on the current Fit! :-)

As for the next-generation Civic, it will likely get a new 1.8-liter I-4 engine with direct injection rated at around 125-130 bhp (SAE) for the normal version and 145-155 bhp (SAE) for the i-VTEC version, but with better fuel economy than the current 1.7-liter engine found on current US-market Civics.

robertsmx

Getting better or worse than EPA estimate is a matter of driving style, so I would pick EPA estimate for the purpose. And there is a Civic that gets 40+ mpg on highway anyway and happens to be the top mileage non-hybrid/non-diesel car in the USA at 36/44 mpg.

With minor improvements to this engine (117 HP), and coupled to lighter weight of Jazz/Fit, it may be possible to hit 40 mpg in city!

bottgers

IMHO, it would be a huge mistake for Honda to price the Fit at $13K-$15K. That would mean many sitting on dealer's lots with no buyers. New Civic LX's can be had for less than $14K with little wheeling and dealing, and I doubt too many people are going to be wiiling pay as much for a Fit as they would for a Civic. The Fit is a $10K car stripped, $12K loaded tops.

backy

We've been discussing whether Honda would move upmarket with the Civic for '06, meaning that the next-gen Civic LX would NOT be available at $14k. For example, comparable Mazda3's cost over $15k after discount, and that's without ABS and SABs/SACs. With that extra safety equipment that will come standard on the Civic for '06 (features that easily cost $800 or so today on other cars), Honda should be able to get well over $15k for an LX even with a steep discount.

kagedude

I am so excited about the Honda Fit/Jazz coming over here. I do hope they ship a model like Australia's Honda Jazz VTi-S. Something comparable with the Scion xA 1.0's looks and the Mini Cooper S' performance. Honda should put in an engine that can go 0-60 within 9 sec or less. Learn from Mitsu's mistake with the underpowered Lancer OZ Rally. 0-60 around 11.5 sec is too slow and doesn't do justice to this car's sexy looks.

So when is it getting here again?

robertsmx

Even the Aveo approaches $14K when loaded, so why would it be too much for Jazz? And unlike Aveo, that is rated 26-27/34-35 mpg for fuel economy, I expect the Jazz to beat Civic HX (35-36/40-44 mpg).

Even at $15K, a loaded Jazz with reasonable performance should do quite well.

BTW, TMV on 2005 Civic LX/Auto is $16.5K. With manual, it may be around $15.5K.

jchan2

is a little pricey considering you're getting a rebadged Daewoo without the Korean style warranty.

backy

Pricey at list maybe. But not when you can buy a decently-equipped Aveo, list over $12k, for $8500. That is the kind of car the Jazz/Fit will have to compete against. That, and an all-new Accent and Rio. So Honda can't make the price too high.

mebman

Does anyone have any new information or links about the redesign and release date of the Jazz/Fit? Honda customer service doesnt know squat about the Jazz/fit. When you call them you may as well be asking about a Ford for all they know. I love Hondas but they are never very forthcoming with any new info for those of us who are not so patiently waiting the arrival of this car.

robertsmx

You don't price your vehicle based on price plan of a competing model that isn't considered a runaway success.

You build a car, and let it sell on its merits. That is why Civic LX sells quite well at $16.5K (the ongoing TMV), and Civic EX at more than that.

robertsmx

TMV on Accord LX/auto is $20,348. Of course, I'm comparing 2005 to 2005. I haven't checked back to see TMV on 2004 Civic and 2004 Accord. The dealer ad you posted shows a difference of $3.5K between Accord LX and Civic LX (pretty much the difference between TMV of the two cars, although the numbers are different).

BTW, sometimes people are happier with smaller, fuel efficient cars. Ask my wife. I wanted Accord LX as the second car, but she insisted on Civic. The "market" price difference between Civic EX we bought and and Accord LX was less than $2K.

But, I couldn't complain about getting 30-31 mpg in city. That is the primary duty of the Civic anyway. Besides savings in the initial cost, it doesn't hurt to save $20/month either.

backy

Are you referring to the Rio and Accent? How do you define "runaway success"? Which other cars sell more units in this segment of the market (low-end subcompacts)?

Consider also that the Fit will be competing against an all-new Rio and Accent. If you have not seen photos of the new Rio or Accent yet, I encourage you to take a look. The new Rio 5-door is IMO the most handsome small 5-door I have seen yet. If the quality of the car is anything close to what Kia did with the new Spectra, I think Honda will need to get fairly close to the Rio (and Accent) in pricing to make a go of it. Buyers may be willing to pay a small premium for the fabled Honda reliability, and for fuel economy if Hyundai's new engine in the Rio and Accent doesn't match the numbers on the Fit's engine. But if Kia and Hyundai offer their cars like they do today under $10k and the Fit comes in at $13-14k comparably equipped, that will be a big difference if the Korean cars are any good.

bamacar

You may say it will compete against the Rio and Accent, but others may say it will compete with the Xb and Mini. It probably lies somewhere between and so will its price. The Xb and Mini have not had any problem attracting large numbers of customers despite their higher prices. I doubt the Fit will either.

backy

I agree the Fit will compete with the xB (and xA), but not much with the Mini Cooper as the Mini is a 3-door sports-oriented model at a higher price point than the economy-oriented Fit (and Scions and Koreans). Honda has the Civic Si to compete directly with the Mini.

Worthy of note I think is that the Fit (Jazz) is considered to be the top supermini in Europe. And that is against very strong competition, most of which we don't have in the U.S. The Fit should clean up in the U.S., depending on how good some upcoming models are.

jchan2

I think it'll clean up here too. Here, the competition is the xA, the xB, the Rio, the Aveo and the Accent. Not much else.

wheelz4

Autoblog has a link saying the Honda City (sedan version of the Fit/Jazz) will be the one Honda will show at the upcoming North American Int'l Auto show. Honda wimps out again. Instead of injecting an innovative 5 door hatch that would be extremely competitive in the marketplace, it looks like they are going to give us another boring little sedan.(From the rear,it's indistinguishable from the Echo sedan). Ho-hum........

fdanna

That trunk version of the Jazz/Fit is revolting. I hope that was just a grave error in reporting. It just screams econo-box.

backy

If Honda doesn't bring the 5-door Fit to the U.S., they are crazy.

jchan2

I agree. GIVE US THE FIT, HONDA!

dudleyr

I like the fit, but would not even consider the city. I want the room and versatility.

xcel

Hi All:

___Honda didn’t go through all the trouble of trying to copyright or verify there are no copyright issues with the name “Fit” only to bring in the 4 door “City” or “Aria” sedan.

___With that, the Fit’s Cd, frontal area, and weight are “tall” in comparison to the City’s. In the real world, this is probably good for another 1 - 2 more mpg out on the highway from the “City” if similarly equipped.

___Good Luck

___Wayne R. Gerdes
___2000 Honda Insight 5-speed #203 - 92.5 lmpg

raychuang00

I think Honda will show both the five-door hatchback and four-door sedan versions of the Honda Fit at the Detroit International Auto Show in January 2005. The reason is simple: there has been a resurgence in sales of hatchbacks, especially now with the price of gasoline over US$2.00 per US gallon in many parts of the country.

But it will be a NEW model, not the current Fit/Jazz/City sold in most of the world, especially since Honda plans a new version of the Fit/Jazz/City very soon anyway. Slightly bigger interior-wise to better accommodate American-sized passengers, the new US-market Honda Fit will likely get a new i-VTEC 1.5-liter I-4 engine that uses the L-series engine block but will use the technology pioneered on the K20B engine, notably the use of direct fuel injection. This means 115-120 bhp (SAE) engine output with the same fuel efficiency as the 1.3-liter I-4 i-DSI engine found on the current Honda Fit and at least SULEV emissions certification.

robertsmx

1.5-liter "i-VTEC I" engine with 110-115 HP, but 40+ mpg (in city) would be the perfect recipe for Jazz's success in North America. But, IMO, not without going with 5-door option. Honda should deliver at least one hatchback, and I will be surprised if Jazz/Fit isn't it.

hungarian83

The Honda Fit introduced into the US market will definitely be a new model.
The current model was introduced in Japan in 2001 and Europe in 2002 making it between 4 and 5 years old. This is Honda’s typical model cycle, although they have been stretching them out recently.
However, the 2005 Fit/Jazz received a bit of a makeover. Nothing major, but it received a few enhancements.

Do you think that this is a “last year of the generation” change, or is Honda going to try to keep the current model going for another year?
I think that the arrival of the new US Fit will probably coincide with the arrival of the second generation JDM Fit and Euro Jazz. The question is, when is the second generation coming out?!

jchan2

I hope the second generation comes out soon.

fdanna

Seeing as how Honda is looking to compete with Scion, it may very well NOT be a new model just to keep prices down. If Scion is used as a model, we can see that all three: xA, xB, and tC are not new models. All of them have mature platforms based on models sold in other markets, with freshened sheetmetal to give them distinction.

Honda could very well keep the old platform and spruce up the looks to appeal to the same Scion market. This would be a very wise decision as most buyers will have no idea. Another case in point is the Ford Focus for 2005. Europe got a whole brand new platform, the US just got new sheetmetal, but basically the same car.

No one will know until more details are released, obviously.

scooter71

I was at Honda of Kirkland (WA) two weekends ago and found it interesting that the salesman pulled out a Japanese Fit brochure and told me about Honda bringing it to the States in '05.

Personally, I think it's a perfect car for the next four Bush years when the dollar declines 35%+ against a major international currency...

hungarian83

Did the dealer give any other details besides the fact that it's coming?

I went to a Honda dealership in Carlsbad (CA) back in February, when all the rumors were circulating from that article in the Nihon Keizai that said the Fit would be coming in November '04.
When I asked the dealer, right away he said it would be coming in November. Then he went to "go get a brochure on the Fit" and came back saying that American Honda was focusing on the pickup truck (Ridgeline) and that they were putting all of their resources with that project. Therefore, the Fit wouldn't come for another few years until at least the 2006 model year (fall 2005).

strager

The Fit was introduced in Japan June 2001. Because it's hyper competitive in that segment in Japan, the Fit will follow a 4 year redesign cycle, meaning the Japanese market should get the new Fit next summer.

I really doubt Honda will introduce the Fit in the US next year, at the same time as the redesigned Civic. Instead, look for Honda to intro the Fit at the 2006 Detroit or NY auto shows, followed by sales in Spring 2006. This is also consistent with Honda's announcement about a small car (below the Civic) being introduced here in 2006.

raychuang00

Actually, the reason why Ford kept the current design Focus for the US market was that the car was a pretty good model to start with and could easily accomodate the Mazda-designed Duratec engines. The new Focus being sold in Europe isn't really that much of a significant improvement over the previous model, as I've read from European motoring magazines. However, Ford has said that the third-generation Focus due in 2009 will be a single worldwide model again, since the model will be a completely all-new platform.

I still think that Honda may unveil the Fit replacement as early as January 2005 at the Detroit International Auto Show, though it's possible they may show it in a "concept car" form there. To give time for Honda's new factory in Brazil to ramp up production (and to make it possible to incorporate the direct-injected i-VTEC engine that I think will be installed on the US-market Fit), Honda could start sales of the revised Fit in the US market in January 2006 as the first of the 2007 models.

hungarian83

I see your point about Honda not wanting to introduce two small cars at the same time, but I think the Fit and Civic are different enough. The 5-door Civic will probably stay in Europe and Japan, so the Fit could be Honda's new (small) 5-door hatchback.
Also, introducing the Fit as a 2006 model would let the Civic move a little bit upscale without leaving a hole in the lower end of the line-up for an entire year.

When it comes to introducing several models during a specific model year, I think Honda could pull it off. They have the Odyssey, Accord Hybrid, and the RL this fall, the Ridgeline in Spring and the Civic next fall. They could easily squeeze the Fit in somewhere.
Remember 2003 when Honda introduced the new Accord, Civic Hybrid, Element, AND Pilot all in one model year.

backy

Introducing the Fit in early 2006 would be a departure for Honda. To the best of my recollection, they have never before done an early-year introduction of a new model in the U.S. But since more and more automakers are doing that, Honda could follow suit.

raychuang00

The reason why I suggested that change in release date is because the second-generation Honda Fit that will be sold in the US market is designed to meet Honda's new safety initiative, so it's likely to be a slightly larger car to 1) accommodate American-sized passengers and 2) accommodate new safety features such as side-curtain airbags and better pedestrian safety. It also gives time for Honda to complete US emissions certification for the 1.5-liter i-VTEC engine used on the US-market Fit, possibly with direct fuel injection.

hungarian83

The Jazz received a four (out of five) star rating in the front/side impact in the Euro NCAP crash test. Out of the 40+ cars in the supermini category, only one received a higher score (5/5 stars for the Renault Modus).
In the pedestrian rating it received the highest score in the supermini class of three stars (out of four). The only other car to even achieve three stars was the Daihatsu Sirion and that was in 2000 when they used the less stringent pedestrian test.
In other words it's already a very safe car for its size. The most expensive 2005 Jazz even offers Vehicle Stability Assist.

They will need to increase the size a little to incorporate side-curtain airbags, but it probably won't be a huge difference. Considering the current pedestrian crash ratings and the size of the current model, the car itself doesn't need to be changed a lot to bring it up to four stars. The important factors for pedestrian crashes are the space between the hood and the engine block, and the way the hood deflects the impact of the pedestrian (usually by lifting up the back of the hood).

As for the American-sized passengers. When you see the Jazz in person, it is no doubt a very small car, but it is quite tall and the interior is very spacious relative to the exterior size. If you look at the Scion xA, it is structurally identical to the Toyota Ist sold in Japan. However, the xA is only about 5 inches longer than the Fit/Jazz. Honda will want to keep the Fit small to differentiate it as much as possible from the Civic.

strager

I believe Honda will introduce both a Civic 5 door hatchback and a Fit hatchback in the U.S. They have to, to compete with Toyota. Toyota offers a choice of 3 hatchbacks: Matrix, Scion xA and xB, and I've heard rumors that they will also offer the new generation Yaris to replace the Echo. Honda offers nothing except an overpriced manual Civic Si.

I was a Honda Civic owner for many years, and got bored of the same old styling and lack of utility in the sedan, so I bought a Scion xB -- a lot more fun than the Civic!

If Honda has to introduce a production model Fit at one of the auto shows before they start selling it, then I don't see how the redesigned Fit will be here next year (since it would be first available in Japan around June). If they do introduce the redesigned Fit here at the April NY show, they'll have to start selling it in Japan at the same time.

raychuang00

Because it appears that Honda wants to take the Civic upmarket, I do believe that Honda will sell both the five-door hatchback and four-door sedan versions of the next-generation Honda Fit in the US market. They'll be built at Honda's new assembly line in Brazil initially, but I do expect that eventually Honda will expand one of their North American production facilities to produce the second-generation Fit here in the USA.

I do agree that Honda will sell the Fit not only to compete against the Scion xA/xB hatchbacks, but also to compete against the plethora of low-cost automobiles coming from Hyundai and Kia.

backy

Actually, Toyota sells five hatchbacks in the U.S., including Prius and Scion tC.

strager

You're right, I missed the Prius and tC. Actually, I considered the Prius when I bought my xB, but the xB was more fun to drive and a much better value (even after considering the gas mileage), almost $7K cheaper than the Prius.

Even so, to my eyes, the Prius is the best looking hatchback in the U.S. market, and the xB the most distinctive. These are the kind of cars I would have expected from Honda. Looks like the Product Planners at Honda are asleep at the wheel.

hungarian83

Because of the popularity of notchback coupes and sedans, there is a possibility that the Fit Aria could be introduced too, but IMHO the Fit Aria/City just can't compare to the Fit/Jazz.

Selling the 5-door Civic would also help move the Civic brand upmarket, but I think the arrival of the Civic 5-door depends on which vehicle will be used for the "Latitude". If that's still the name.
(sorry for going off topic!)

jchan2

from what I've heard from the Latitude board, it should be the FR-V.

hungarian83

I admit that the Scion xA and xB are hatchbacks, and of course the Matrix as well, but if you're going to call the Prius and Scion tC hatchbacks, you would have to say that Honda sells three, not just one (Civic Si, Insight, RSX).
Realistically though, the Insight and Prius, and tC and RSX are more liftbacks, rather than real hatchbacks. Just a thought.

However unlike Toyota, Honda doesn't sell any "regular" hatchbacks in the US.
The Fit/Jazz, Civic 5-door, and FR-V/Edix could together take a big share of the market since they cater to such a wide range of people. Honda is paying attention to the SUV, minivan, and even the recreational pick-up users, but not enough to the younger people (many of whom have their entire car buying futures ahead of them).

backy

Yes, there's the Insight and RSX. But the Insight sells in such small numbers it's a gnat on the screen.

What is a "liftback"? I thought that was Toyota's made-up term for "hatchback". They started calling their hatchbacks "liftbacks" in the mid 70s when they introduced the first Corolla hatchbacks--er, liftbacks. Actually, Toyota has a sixth hatchback/liftback: the Celica.

When does a hatchback/liftback become a "wagon"? The Matrix and xB, for example, look a lot like small wagons. Edmunds.com includes them in the "Wagon" category. They call the Prius, tC, xA, RSX, Insight, and Celica "hatchbacks."

hungarian83

Point taken...I just thought the RSX should be included, and yes the Insight doesn't sell well.
It is almost a specialty category within Hybrids (2 seater, very "interesting" design).

Regarding terminology. I offer my apology for the confusion I may have caused. I also didn't know Toyota was the one that made up the term. Thank you for calling that to my attention.
In my opinion...the difference between a "liftback" and a hatchback is the shape of the rear of the vehicle. The liftback has a more gradual decline, with the top sloping down. The rear window is usually large and appears to be more horizontal (RSX, tC, '86-'89 Accord hatchback). This conveys a sportier, more streamlined image. The rear opening is also not as useful for putting in/taking out large items.
For hatchbacks, the rear hatch is much more vertical with a smaller window (height-wise). There is minimal decline in the roofline from the center on the car towards the back and the end drops off abruptly (Fit, Matrix, xA, Civic Si). This leaves the interior with more useable space. In many cases, the bottom of the door is almost level with the top of the rear floor space (usually not the case with "liftbacks").

Wagons usually have a larger rear cargo space and more of the car extends past the rear wheels. A good example of this is the Euro/JDM Accord wagon vs. the Civic 5-door, or the Focus wagon vs. 5-door.

Conclusion: Liftbacks (maybe they should be called sportbacks?) are typically known as sporty cars. Even though they both have backs that are technically hatches, the Scion xA and tC are hardly in the same category. Seems funny to include the xA in the same category as the Celica. Apart from the size difference, the xA and Matrix have a very similar body size.

OK...back to the Fit.

raychuang00

"Honda is paying attention to the SUV, minivan, and even the recreational pick-up users, but not enough to the younger people (many of whom have their entire car buying futures ahead of them)."

However, with the price of gasoline (petrol) not likely to come down soon, I think Honda will have to offer more fuel-efficient cars over the next few years. As such, that's why we'll see the second-generation Honda Fit in the US market, and it's very likely that Honda will replace the CR-V with vehicles based on the FR-V/Edix "tall wagon"; the upcoming Acura RDX small SUV will be based on the FR-V, and it may also spawn a Honda-badged model called Latitude. I wouldn't be surprised that the second-generation Honda Element due in a couple of years will also be FR-V derived, too.

hungarian83

Aren't the CR-V, Element, and FR-V all based off of the Civic platform anyway?
I agree with the future introduction of more fuel-efficient vehicles, I just wish they would have started earlier. I think that Honda will also try to maximize the fuel efficiency of its larger engine vehicles with IMA and VCM, which it is already starting to do.
I think it is likely that there will be a hybrid CR-V and it would be neat to see the diesel CR-V in the US. The engine is very quiet, smooth, and clean. In Europe, the diesel contains much less sulphur (95% less I believe), which allows for filters to be placed on the emissions that take out much of the particles. Of course, I don't think diesels will ever shed their image of being dirty, and noisy, so in the eyes of the American consumer having Honda introduce a diesel might be a bad idea. In Europe it is a different story. I heard an estimate that 52% of the CR-Vs sold next year in Europe will be diesel, and there will be a diesel FR-V.

robertsmx

People looking for practicality are getting light trucks anyway. So, I’m not sure if a Civic HB would do well enough against Element (both competing in the same price class). FR-V is unlikely here, since it will have an overlap with Element as well as CR-V. And that also suggests that Civic hatchback is unlikely. Too many vehicles in the same price class with similar orientation.

Jazz/Fit, OTOH, will sit in a price class that isn’t being served by Honda at the moment (Civic DX likely costs as much as a loaded Jazz could) and that also includes a hatchback offering under $15K.

hungarian83

I don't think of the Civic 5d or the FR-V as competition to either the Element or CR-V.
The audience for an Element is limited a lot because of its interior and exterior design. It really doesn't work as a family car. People who want an Element probably wouldn't jump for the FR-V and vice-versa. They are quite different. The CR-V is not very big, and it's car-based, but it is distinctly an SUV.
The FR-V is more of a compact MPV. I'm pretty sure Honda would market it similar to the way they did with the 1st Gen Odyssey. It is meant for those families who want the 3+3 seating versatility and room without having to purchase a higher ground clearance SUV. It could serve quite well underneath the Odyssey, which has really grown up into a large, expensive minivan.

There is a possibility that the FR-V may take some of the CR-V sales, but I think the two vehicles are different enough to allow them to be sold here at one time.

The Fit would have no competition within Honda except for maybe those people who are looking at a Civic DX, but want a smaller car. There is some price overlap, but that would only be with the loaded Fit and the bare bones Civic DX.
Having the Fit in the US would be an invaluable asset for Honda for many reasons.